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BS: Call time on the USA?
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Subject: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Richard Bridge Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:21 PM So, between about 1840 and about 1880 the US (in various forms) invaded the territories of indigenous peoples, killed them, dispossessed them, and incarcerated them (in prison as such or on "reservations"). Throughout the 1600s onwards the UK did somewhat similarly in Ireland, throughout the 1600s to the Victorian Era the UK similarly colonialised vast tracts of the world and specifically in the Victorian era the UK carried out similar offences against African indigenous peoples. Although the UK did not for example confine the Yoruba, the Hausa, the Igbo, etc, to reservations. However, since then the UK has moved to a post-colonialist position both in Ireland (where Gerry Adams and friends achieved what Geronimo and Owen Glendower could not) and in Africa. Two questions come to mind. Why could Geronimo hold off up to 5,500 troops with only up to 50 followers, for maybe 40 years, while for example in Benin the British destroyed the indigenous civilisation in just a few years? Secondly, if the UK has retreated from most of its former colonies, when will the USA do likewise? (oh, and when will Australia properly accommodate its indigenes)? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Jun 14 - 06:24 PM Which colonies are we supposed to abandon, Richard? Hawaii and Alaska and Puerto Rico won't go. Virgin Islands? Guam? They seem to treasure their U.S. citizenship and their ability to come and go as they please. We left Panama and the Philippines, and we haven't spent much time in the Halls of Montezuma lately. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: MartinRyan Date: 05 Jun 14 - 06:50 PM Joe - you could start with the "Louisiana Purchase"! The real empire is the "internal" one. I reckon a campaign exchanging Gideon Bibles for Gibbons Decline and Fall is in order. Regards |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Jun 14 - 07:09 PM Gee, Martin, if Richard Bridge wants to give the land back to the Indians, maybe he could form a coalition with Lizzie Cornish. If we go back there to the Louisiana Purchase and everything after that, we won't have much left. None of the U.S. was acquired with complete legitimacy. We have given some pretty good pieces of land back to the Indians, though. I feel bad for the Indians and the Mexicans and all, but I'm not leavin' the ranch! -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: GUEST,# Date: 05 Jun 14 - 07:17 PM "Why could Geronimo hold off up to 5,500 troops with only up to 50 followers, for maybe 40 years, while for example in Benin the British destroyed the indigenous civilisation in just a few years?" He did not. If you are at all interested, read this link. Geronimo bio. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Bill D Date: 05 Jun 14 - 08:49 PM Geronimo fought what battles he did in HIS territory, knowing where to hide in a large area. It was not exactly "holding off" US troops. As to "colonies", we have either left, absorbed them as citizens, or are paying large sums for semi-permanent bases. Joe's explanations say all you need to know. **ALL** bad treatment of indigenous peoples before 1900 by **ANY** country is sad, but 'going back' is seldom possible. If you have clear, specific suggestions for doing so, write a letter to Congress.... and good luck! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: GUEST Date: 05 Jun 14 - 09:22 PM 150 years and 3 days ago, at Cold Harbor, Virginia, more than 7000 U.S. troops died in less than an hour, thanks to Britain's Lord Palmerston. His plan to dominate the U.S. called for splitting the country into 4 governable pieces--north/south first, east/west later. He was the prime instigator of the U.S. Civil War. Calling a cocksucker like that a "lord" shows you why the Brits are so fucked up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Ebbie Date: 05 Jun 14 - 10:05 PM The US learned from the best, Mr. Bridge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Mrrzy Date: 05 Jun 14 - 10:45 PM In Benin they didn't SETTLE (the British, I mean). Vastly different. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Richard Bridge Date: 06 Jun 14 - 01:03 AM When Geronimo took on the Mexicans in about 1840 he at times had up to 200 men. From 1881 to 1887 there were about 5,000 of the US army after him, and also maybe 300 to 500 of the Mexican army. Typically during these last 6 years he had 27 followers. Benin was reduced in days in 1897. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: GUEST,Musket Date: 06 Jun 14 - 01:58 AM I blame George III |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:21 AM Off the top of my head, I would guess that Geronimo's band of Apaches were highly mobile nomads with the facility to live off the land in a trackless desert. The people of Benin, on the other hand, were probably settled villagers with crops and livestock - all you had to do to conquer them was to steal their land and starve them into submission. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Ebbie Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:52 AM Yeh. And when one compares approximately 15 square miles to 4,000, finding and defeating a small bunch of farmers should be no more difficult than a kick in the pants. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:21 AM It seems that only we, in the 21st century West, have developed a guilt complex over the conquering activities of our ancestors. I bet that the Romans or the Aztecs or the Mongols etc. went on no such guilt trips. I bet that no-one in 17th century Ottoman Istanbul said: "Our ancestors were dreadful, wicked monsters, you know! They overran the Balkan countries, kidnapped healthy Christian boys and then trained them into an army of slave soldiers (Janissaries). Then in 1453 that evil bastard (Sultan) Murad sent his Janissaries over the walls of Constantinople, where they slaughtered most of the inhabitants and forcibly converted the survivors to Islam. I feel so guilty about living in this city that we stole!" I bet it didn't happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: akenaton Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:28 AM President Obama has weighed into the Scottish Independence debate, by stating that he would prefer to see a "UNITED KINGDOM" as an ally. Hypocritical, or ironic.? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: GUEST,Musket Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:31 AM Real politik |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: akenaton Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:52 AM Both then? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Jun 14 - 08:41 AM He was the prime instigator of the U.S. Civil War. Calling a cocksucker like that a "lord" shows you why the Brits are so fucked up. Just what are you on, Guest? The citizens of the British Isles (if that is what you mean by Brits) have as little to do with Palmerston as you have. His title was historically, and still is, Lord. Nothing to do with respect but simply an inherited affectation. Whether he sucked cocks or not is irrelevant and tarring millions of people as 'fucked up' because of the actions of one man over two hundred years ago makes as much sense as udders on a bull. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: artbrooks Date: 06 Jun 14 - 08:48 AM Once the West Saxons give back the land taken from the Mercians, Northumbrians, the Anglians, the Welsh, the Scots and the Irish (and everybody I forgot), will there be enough room for repatriation of all of the English-descended Americans? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: GUEST,Musket Date: 06 Jun 14 - 10:18 AM Yes and perhaps if Palmerston had achieved his aims, we'd not have a country that kills it's prisoners, interferes in its neighbours and tries to export its facile interpretation of entertainment? Stupidity can work two ways. Sanctimonious fool. If we had left a bucket of yoghurt alone since 1776 it would have developed a decent culture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Rapparee Date: 06 Jun 14 - 10:34 AM Were I of Cornish descent I think I'd like England to give my country back...I shan't point out St. Brice's Day, Mystic, Bolton, Glencoe, St. George's Field, Waxhaw, Cherry Valley, Uva-Wellassa, and Peterloo (to mention a few I shan't point out). And how in WORLD did those wild Irish savages manage to fight against the English for so long? And those Zulus -- imagine Isandlwana! Why, Sir Henry Frere was such a peace-loving individual! Of course, Cecil Rhodes never did anything untoward either. Don't call my kettle black if your pot is blacker...better, learn your own history. As for Geronimo, you might also ask about Mangus Colorado and Victorio -- AFTER you visit the area they fought in. By the way, Apache COUNTY is in Arizona -- and to give you a rough idea of why Geronimo and others could do what they did, it contains 11,218 square miles and damned little water. The population density in 2010 was 6.4 people per square MILE. Compare this COUNTY to England, which has an area of 50,346 square miles, a lot of water, and a population density of 1,054/square mile in 2011. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Musket Date: 06 Jun 14 - 10:43 AM Keep banging the rocks together and when is Hollywood going to cash in on the all American success story we call friendly fire? zzzzzz |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Bill D Date: 06 Jun 14 - 10:51 AM "...we'd not have a country that..." etc. Once again, someone shows they have only a shallow idea of how the US operates. 1)This 'country' does not "kill its prisoners"... several states, operating under their own idea of justice, sometimes do. The majority of Americans would stop it if there were any way to have a national vote. 2) Not sure about what 'interference' you specifically mean, but some on issues, it's "damned if you do and damned if you don't". 3)We have 'entertainment' of many types... some total crap, some quite lovely. We don't exactly 'export'... we trade for things like "Fawlty Towers", "Last of the Summer Wine" and "Benny Hill". I suppose those developed from a neglected bucket of yogurt. (leaving out unnecessary letter☺) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Jun 14 - 10:54 AM Rapp - Can you not see the contradiction involved in two of your statements? Yes, England is a tiny country compared to yours. Why suggest we break it up into smaller segments by 'giving back' Cornwall? And who would we give it back to anyway? And then where would it stop? Home rule for Yorkshire? Rutland? Some of your states are larger than many entire countries and could comfortably be economies in their own rights. Some of them are! I have serious misgivings about Scottish independence. Independence for tiny areas like Cornwall is just a complete nonsense. Were you joking or do you really have no concept of UK geography? Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: artbrooks Date: 06 Jun 14 - 11:18 AM Dave, Rapper's comment, like mine, is a simple and reasonable response to the OP's original question: if the UK has retreated from most of its former colonies, when will the USA do likewise? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Musket Date: 06 Jun 14 - 11:20 AM Bill completely misses the point... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:25 PM No. sorry Art, but your comments are not a reasonable response as you are not comparing like with like. The Saxons, Normans, Mercians, Northumbrians and all the rest are co-existing quite happily here and are all given equal rights. Is that true in the case of the USA and it's indigenous peoples? Maybe it is - Educate me. Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Bill D Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:25 PM Bill can be enlightened if it's not done in odd referential metaphor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Rapparee Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:31 PM EVERY country has things in its history that are shameful when we look back on them. Take the Liverpudlian businessmen who became wealthy on the slave trade with the US after it was banned by Britain, and the Northern US merchants who became rich on cotton and tobacco tended and harvested by slaves in the Southern US. No one sees them self as bad or evil -- even Himmler and Attila the Hun thought their work was right and just. Or take Joshua in the OT, massacring whole populations and being damned near canonized for it. The Bon Secours nuns in Tuam did not think what they were doing was evil. Evil often hides behind what we think is good and right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: GUEST,# Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:38 PM "As through this world I've wandered I've seen lots of funny men; Some will rob you with a six-gun, And some with a fountain pen." I figure most here will recognize that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: GUEST,Squeezer Date: 06 Jun 14 - 09:27 PM Do I detect a split personality in Mr Bridges? He contrasts a benign UK cheerfully giving up its former colonial empire with an apparently imperialist and repressive USA clinging grimly onto its "colonies", which of course he cannot name. He then taunts America for being ineffective in rounding up a militant Apache, and contrasts that with the brutally effective British army in Nigeria. Tell us please Richard - is keeping the damn natives in their place a jolly admirable thing, or should the British have been in Africa in the first place? Or are you just a bit bored today and feel like having a troll on the Net? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Janie Date: 06 Jun 14 - 10:10 PM Well said, Rap. Sorry to see the 'cultural wars' taking shape on Mudcat. But not really surprising. We illustrate in microcosm what is happening in an increasingly crowded world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: LadyJean Date: 07 Jun 14 - 12:17 AM Confederate troops carried British Enfield rifles. Young English noblemen organized a Southern Independence Association, to support the Confederacy. Of course there is also the beautiful Adrress of the Workingmen of Manchester to President Lincoln, in which they expressed their support for his cause, though they were cutting their own throats when they did it. God bless them all! The worst crap presently polluting the airwaves is reality programming, an import from Europe and the UK. I've seen a few "Carry On" comedies. They make Adam Sandler's efforts look downright sophisticated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 07 Jun 14 - 02:49 AM Y'see, young Yankee Guest, we serve their Lordships and they look after us. I think it's called 'paternalism' - although I ain't 'ad much book learning (their Lordships don't like us to be too well educated - we might get above ourselves!). Anyway, as it happens, Lord Cecil has requested a maypole dance on his lawn this afternoon. Now where did I put me 'at and me breeches (hope the wife has ironed them)? Still, it's not so bad - his Lordship has promised tea and crumpets afterwards - lovely! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: GUEST,Musket Date: 07 Jun 14 - 03:00 AM I like a bit of crumpet. Ooh matron! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Jun 14 - 01:07 PM Lord Cecil? Please provide full name, I would like to attend. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:05 PM Lady Jean. How can you say such things about the Carry On films? You will say Benny Hill was bad next! :-) I must point out though that the first acknowledged reality program was on MTV and inspired by a US documentary. Just for the record. Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: LadyJean Date: 07 Jun 14 - 09:54 PM Benny Hill had a long and successful career giving bad taste a bad name. I will point out that the first international court was convened in Geneva Switzerland to decide a difference between the U.S. and Great Britian, over the sinking of the CSS Alabama by the U.S.S. Kearsage. The Alabama, as the song says, was built in town of Birkenhead, sailed down the Merzy where Liverpool fitted her with guns and men, then sailed forth from the Western Isles to destroy the commerce of the North. The decision was in favor of the U.S. The square where it was decided is still called Alabama, and, of course, it's a pretty good song. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 08 Jun 14 - 02:10 AM Sorry to be pedantic, Lady J ... milady ... ahemmm! ... but the name of the river is spelled "Mersey" - not "Mirzy" - as you might imagine from the pronunciation. I only point this out because I have an interest in the upper reaches of this great river. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 08 Jun 14 - 02:50 AM Rapparee you'd be quite right in not mentioning Glencoe when having a go at the English! It didn't really have anything to do with England even if there was the odd English individual involved. It was pre-union and the whole enterprise was planned and executed by the Scottish central govt and Scottish troops were used. Scots committing atrocities against other Scots wasn't England's fault. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: akenaton Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:33 AM The Gaels and Lowland Scots......Hooray for multiculturalism! :0( |
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Subject: RE: BS: Call time on the USA? From: GUEST,Musket Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:11 AM Respectable people and bigots. You are right. Multiculturalism doesn't always make decent bedfellows. |
