 sj |
||
|
||
BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist
|
|
|
Subject: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 13 Dec 13 - 08:33 PM (Hope this post is clear.) I'm going back to the story concept of an Oliver Twist retelling. Only the concept I'm going back to is my original concept for that idea: a reimagining of Oliver Twist set in the US (not England) specifically New York City. Or to be exact, the setting is Brooklyn, which in the future of the story is a separate city from NYC, as it once was. So this isn't a new idea based on he older one but a return to the older idea. That said, thanks everyone who helped me on the other thread! :) The story's time period is a hundred years after a nuclear war at the end of this century which means most of the world has regressed to 19th century living standards. The technology is powered by steam created though solar energy and antibiotic resistance means that deaths from diseases and infections which are curable in this century are once again common. Plus the huge popularity of both the novel and of stage versions of Oliver Twist in particular the character of Nancy, in the States (and in Britain too) as well as the fact that "world's worst slum" in the Victorian era/19th century, Five Points was located in New York, gave me the inspiration. Of course, because this is set in the future it has to be set in a different area as Five Points no longer exists as a neighbourhood. So what's the point of this thread? (Just to be clear it's not to tell everyone about my story) I've had a lot of time to think since the other thread. In particular I've spent a lot of time thinking about how I could characterise Fagin and reading everything I could about Oliver Twist and its adaptations as well as Jewish and Black stereotypes (several important characters, including an original character and the protagonist (the Artful Dodger) are Black). I've also been thinking about that other thread as I did the research. Just yesterday I found an interview/panel discussion with Ron Moody (who played Fagin), Mark Lester (who played Oliver) and Kenneth Cranham (who played Noah Claypole) on Youtube: Three cast members from the 1968 movie Oliver! talk about the movie and their memories. Ron Moody's discussion of how he characterised Fagin starting in the original West End production and ending in the 1968 movie and 1984 Broadway revival starts at 11.22. My idea was and is to retell Oliver Twist as a sci-fi novel in order to explore questions about heredity and genetic inheritance (which the original touched on), classism, what role poverty and racial/ethnic/religious prejudice play in a person choosing to do illegal things to make a living and the effects of anti-Semitism and other religious, ethnic and racial (using that word the way most people think of it as referring to a person's common physical features such as natural skin colour) prejudices. Since Oliver Twist was intended to be social commentary and science fiction's often used as So as a way of doing what Ron Moody and Lionel Bart did to "distract" (as Ron Moody says) audiences from the anti-Semitism of Dickens' original character and to humanise him, I'm looking at writing him along the lines of Ron Moody/Lionel Bart's characterisation: he genuinely cares about the kids he's taken in and loves them-- he cares for them as they recover from back-alley surgical procedures involving implants which are supposed to enhance them as thieves, shows them affection and gives them a home. But he's still got a scary ruthless edge; he's a fence who makes use of kids to steal for him and earn him some much-needed money because he's living in poverty. I think it's significant-- even though I don't know if it's positive or negative-- that a lot of people who've seen Oliver! have a different reaction to the Fagin in the musical to the Fagin in other adaptations or the original book because in a way they're two different characters with the only similarities being the name, ethnicity/religion (only implied through Bart's music-- I read about at least one klezmer group doing Pick A Pocket or-Two) I don't think anyone who considers Lionel Bart's musical light really knows what they're saying. Sure it's got a significantly lighter tone than the original novel and the David Lean film which was its main source but it's still not exactly happy. Have those reviewers forgotten these lines from "I'd Do Anything?": Would you rob a shop? Anything! Would you risk the drop? Anything! Till your eyes go pop? Anything! And you come down plop! Hang everything! We'd risk life and limb To keep you in the swing Yes we'd do anything, Anything for you. Those lines are a reference to the fact that the original Dickens character sent boys to the gallows when they were a threat to him and his safety. Not exactly light and happy. So the point of this thread is to say that I think I've found a solution to the Fagin-as-stereotype problem at least in my own OT adaptation. Note: the title's a bit misleading but it's the way it is because I couldn't call the thread "Oliver Twist, Lionel Bart's Oliver and how I'm handling the anti-Semitism in the character of Fagin in my own version of Oliver Twist." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 13 Dec 13 - 08:43 PM How do I get rid of the blue links in the last paragraph?
[there was one extra apostrophe at the beginning of the YouTube link] -mod |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: GUEST Date: 13 Dec 13 - 08:55 PM White Out or Photo Shop. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: Ebbie Date: 13 Dec 13 - 08:57 PM Since we can't do our own editing, I think the only way to get rid of the blue lines is to PM Joe O or one of the clones. It is easily fixed.
[ Actually, it was pretty tricky to find that small apostrophe in that many lines. This left the rest of the post as part of the link.] |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: maeve Date: 13 Dec 13 - 08:58 PM Hi, Morwen. You could simply rewrite your post as you want it, and post it. In that case the moderator will remove the other one with the accidental underlining. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 13 Dec 13 - 09:39 PM Write to what YOU know...begin with Kiwi Land It is obvious you do not understand Dickens London (a study of that social economic geologic background should become your first step.) Next, you are totally ignorant of New York City past, present or future. How about using an exotic location you can easily research....say, Queensland? Better yet, go total fantasy are place it on a moon of Jupiter. Re: "Artful Dodgers is black"......you mean he is a "Mary Poppins" type chimney sweep without access to a bath? I hope you recognize that Mr Moody....etc...is NOT Fagan. ....and the movie is NOT Dickens. Let me make a wild guess. You are attempting a link between anti-Jew and anti-transgender? Sincerely, Gargoyle Of course the song is macabre ..... Try a spin with Sweeney Todd .... or reading the court records of Tyburn Cross. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 13 Dec 13 - 10:23 PM @gargoyle: I hope you realise that Lionel Bart was not attempting to adapt the Dickens novel as such. He wanted to write a music-hall style musical. He used the 1948 film as his main source and considered his show to be "freely adapted from Dickens' Oliver Twist." Ron Moody's interpretation of the character of Fagin as done by Lionel Bart isn't anything but Guess what -- Ron Moody's interpretation, of Lionel Bart's version of the character of Fagin. Lionel Bart's version. Not Charles Dickens' version. The musical ain't Dickens but it never claimed to be Dickens. And I consider your idea that I don't understand Dickens' London to be crazy. I learnt about it and I've been researching the 19th century for fun by myself for years. I know about the slums, the low payment of factory workers. The fact that some women chose streetwalking rather than backbreaking work. The abuse and corruption in the workhouses. And I know enough about 19th century New York City to know that some gangsters were also political bosses and that among other things, Five Points was called "The worst slum in the world" and that wealthy and middle-class people from all over the city and all over the States and the world, including Dickens himself, visited it. I may be young, I may be Australian and I might not be an expert, but I'm not stupid or ignorant. I'm already regretting starting this thread.. I can just see how it's going to go... bla bla you don't understand this, you 're making assumptions. Basically a copy of the other thread. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 13 Dec 13 - 10:46 PM And just to make the OP clearer (because I don't want my posts to be misinterpreted or this to turn into a copy of the other thread re Oliver Twist retellings): This thread isn't about "Should I retell Oliver Twist in a futuristic NYC setting? or even ''Should I retell Oliver Twist? or "Is the idea mentioned in the OP a good concept for an OT retelling?" (Although it may turn into being a thread about one or all of those questions.) It isn't even a thread asking for writing advice (it'd be weird to ask for writing advice on this forum). It's about a solution I figured out to a problem with OT adaptations which might work for me, given the number of posters mentioning Lionel Bart's musical in the first thread. Sorry about the tone of this post. I just want to make it clearer. :) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: GUEST Date: 13 Dec 13 - 11:28 PM Morwhen, May your rewrite have the same success as Lionel Bart's. It sounds a great idea. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: GUEST Date: 13 Dec 13 - 11:31 PM And remember that Bart's genius lay not in truly portraying 19th Century London; but rather in accurately portraying what people of the nineteen sixties THOUGHT that 1830 London was like. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 13 Dec 13 - 11:47 PM It's "Morwen". actually. And thanks. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: Big Al Whittle Date: 14 Dec 13 - 02:52 AM don't let anyone stifle a creative urge - just DO it! What you end up with is never quite what you first intended - just go with the flow. We all wish you the very best on mudcat. Freely adapt from a free adaption - and best of luck! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 14 Dec 13 - 03:41 AM @Al: How come I knew you'd post here? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: Pete Jennings Date: 14 Dec 13 - 06:37 AM When you do anything creative, Morwen, you will always find critics. In my experience, embrace them, listen to them, try to understand what they are saying. Oh, and then ignore most of them and just do it! Pete. PS. I call 'em "desk movers". You know that day you had planned for the office re-arrangement, when only a couple of others turn up to help moving the desks and cabinets, etc. Then, when you're just about finished, the others turn up and say they don't like it... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 14 Dec 13 - 07:36 AM BTW, I recently found the 1999 ITV miniseries of OT on YouTube andstarted watching it partly for research and partly just out of interest. It's really atmospheric and dark (and a bit of trivia: Robert Lindsay who plays Fagin also played the same role in Oliver!) What I've seen so far of Lindsay's performance as Fagin is really good. @Pete: You mean when you have something done and people want to look at it? And they say "I don't like it"? And then when you say "What didn't you like about it?" they say "I don't know I just don't like it"? What I've experienced so far showing what I've written to my online friends on other forums is sometimes people don't understand what I've done/written. Don't know why but there you go. Anyway thanks for the advice, everyone (even if I'm not sure whether I actually needed it!) :) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 14 Dec 13 - 07:42 AM BTW, I recently found the 1999 ITV miniseries of OT on YouTube and started watching it partly for research and partly just out of interest. It's really atmospheric and dark (and a bit of trivia: Robert Lindsay who plays Fagin also played the same role in Oliver!) What I've seen so far of Lindsay's performance as Fagin is really good. @Pete: You mean when you have something done and people want to look at it? And they say "I don't like it"? And then when you say "What didn't you like about it?" they say "I don't know I just don't like it"? What I've experienced so far showing what I've written to my online friends on other forums is sometimes people don't understand what I've done/written. Don't know why but there you go. Anyway thanks for the advice, everyone (even if I'm not sure whether I actually needed it!) :) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: Big Al Whittle Date: 14 Dec 13 - 07:59 AM Robert Lindsay - a Derbyshire lad from Belper |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: Big Al Whittle Date: 14 Dec 13 - 06:30 PM or is it Ilkeston? One of those Wear The Fox Hat places....... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How I'm retelling Oliver Twist From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 14 Dec 13 - 07:18 PM @Al: According to Wikipedia it's Ilkeston. |
