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BS: Does anybody knnow where we are?
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BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? |
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Subject: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: JohnInKansas Date: 21 Nov 13 - 03:10 PM While I have some reluctance to report a simple case of navigational error, having worked for decades in the design and building of the equipment intended to reduce such difficulties, a recent (yesterday) OOOPS!!! begs for comment: Giant Boeing 747 freighter lands at wrong Kansas airport [Edited since link snatched. See below.] Officials are scratching their heads about how to get a 747 "Dreamlifter" cargo plane to its correct destination after it landed at the wrong airport. The airport's tarmac is about 3,000 feet too short for the plane to take off. By Alastair Jamieson, Staff writer, NBC News 21 November 2013 A behemoth Boeing air freighter bound for McConnell Air Force Base in Wichita, Kan., landed Wednesday night at a nearby smaller commercial airport by mistake, and officials scrambled to come up with a plan to get it back in the air. More than 10 hours after the mixup, an airport official said they had managed to turn around the "Dreamlifter" on the runway and had determined that it could take off on the shorter runway. "They've assured us they've run all the engineering calculations...and the aircraft is safe for a normal departure at its current weight and conditions here," said Brad Christopher of the Wichita Airport Authority. He said it took "more than a three-point turn" to get the 235-foot-long plane [a US football field is only 300 feet long] turned around on the 100-foot-wide runway at Jabara Airport. "They were able to do a very good job," Christopher said. [The runway is 100 ft wide. The airplane is 235 feet long.] The 747 aircraft, one of the largest cargo planes in the world, touched down safely at Jabara at 9:38 p.m. CT Wednesday — eight miles from its intended destination. A recording of a radio conversation with air traffic controllers appears to show that crew members were still unsure of their location even after landing at Jabara, which has no control tower and doesn't normally handle cargo traffic. {They do have Unicom.] Wichita Mid-Continent Airport is the main commercial airport in the region. [About 15 miles west of Jabara.] In the recording, one of the pilots can be heard mistakenly telling the control tower at AFB McConnell that they landed at nearby Beech Factory Airport, then asking for details of other airports in the area. [Recollection is that this is about a 3600 ft long strip. If they had landed there they'd have parked somewhere on or past US highway 54/400. The nearest intersection was recently reported as "most dangerous in Wichita, but that report didn't mention being squashed by airplanes as part of the hazard.] "Let me ask you this, how many airports...are there?" one of the crew members is heard asking. [The news report left out "How many F***G Airports are there around here. Answer would have been "quite a few."] Officials were initially worried that the plane — which weighs 400,000 pounds even when empty — would be grounded because Jabara's 6,100-foot runway is about half the length of the runways at AFB McConnell. But by morning they had determined there was enough room for a takeoff and scheduled a noon departure to McConnell, where the plane will unload. Visibility in Wichita was four miles with some fog Thursday morning, and skies were overcast, according to The Weather Channel. Wind gusts of up to 30 mph were recorded. The plane, modified from the Boeing 747 to carry Boeing air parts, is one of only four of its kind. This story was originally published on Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:25 AM EST *** For those not familiar with them, an image of an early Boeing 747 is at Early(?) 747. The President of American Airlines once claimed the "bump" on the nose was "so the pilots won't bump their heads when they sit down on their wallets." Most 747s in current use look more like Typical 747 now?. The extended "bump" was to provide a "luxury" first class section, with the apparent assumption that anyone who could afford a seat there would also have a fat wallet.(?) The "DreamLifter" that made this landing is like 747 DreamLifter image. This really is a BIG airplane. It's a couple of hours past the scheduled "correction" and we haven't heard any big noises, so we assume the problem has been resolved (??). The first link to the original original report (as posted above) of the OOPS now reports a successful remedy as being accomplished. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: Irene M Date: 21 Nov 13 - 03:26 PM Probably not, but the BBC site says she managed to get out again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: Gurney Date: 21 Nov 13 - 03:45 PM Oops. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: GUEST,sciencegeek Date: 21 Nov 13 - 03:51 PM no Christmas bonus for them.... makes you wonder.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: GUEST Date: 21 Nov 13 - 04:02 PM So much for Google Maps . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 21 Nov 13 - 04:32 PM Well Toto, at least we're still in Kansas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: JohnInKansas Date: 21 Nov 13 - 05:02 PM The report is particularly puzzling for old-timers who recall reports that one of the first 747 flights (30 years agoe?) took off from New York and flew to Paris entirely on autopilot and came down through an overcast within sight of the destination field. And that autopilot likely is now "obsolete" and replaced by something better? A recent FAA "advice" commented that current pilots "rely too much on automation" and need to "learn to fly their airplanes" again; but we shouldn't rush to assume what procedures the pilots involved were using. The two runways, Jabara and McConnell, are precisely parallel, 8 miles apart (north/south), with McConnell offset about a mile westward of Jabara. Pilots unfamiliar with the area might have reason to be "confused," but should have had charts to show the correct locations unambiguously, along with sufficient other landmarks for identifying their location. Of course it was a little foggy when they came in, and maybe some fog got into the "cockpit bump." John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: JohnInKansas Date: 22 Nov 13 - 12:25 AM And for the next chapter ... Flying faux-pas: Airbus airliner lands in Boeing newspaper ad Jonathan Kaminsky Reuters 21 November 2013 A group encouraging Washington state to keep up its fight to secure the coveted work on the new Boeing 777 airliner committed an aviation faux-pas in an ad for Wednesday's edition of the Seattle Times newspaper. At the top of the full-page ad, under the all-caps text "The Future of Washington," is pictured not a Boeing jet, but rather an A320 from European archrival Airbus. The ad, which prominently displays the logo of the Washington Aerospace Partnership, a coalition of business, labor and government groups championing the industry, urges state lawmakers to pass a large-scale roads-and-transit tax package that Boeing executives have said would make the state a more desirable venue for future projects. *** [More at the link, including pictures.] OOPS AGAIN. First the right plane lands on the wrong field, and now the wrong airplane lands right where they wanted it. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: Pete Jennings Date: 22 Nov 13 - 06:22 AM Google Earth shows McConnell roughly SE of Wichita and Jabara to the NE. Same orientation (NNE or SSW depending on approach) and almost exactly in line with each other. One way of testing the brakes... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: Richard Bridge Date: 22 Nov 13 - 09:09 AM I tried to follow some google map directions the other day and my bump of direction was telling me it was all wrong. After stopping and buying a local map at a petrol station (not an option in an aeroplane, I know) it became clear that the instructions "turn left into Widmore Road" should have been "turn right into the High Street opposite Widmore Road". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: JohnInKansas Date: 22 Nov 13 - 05:32 PM When I got my latest Win7 computer my old map program didn't want to run, so I bought a copy of Microsoft Streets and Trips, certified to be the updated Win7 version. It wouldn't install. I contacted Microsoft and gave one of their experts control permission to fix it. He couldn't install it. They sent me a new disk, which wouldn't install. Another Microsoft expert installed it. (???) The first time we tried it out, we spent a couple of hours looking for an address that we never found. On the return home and checking with other resources we found three different streets that were shown by Streets and Trips at least 6 miles from where they actually are, and one still labelled "Bickel Street" which is the name it had before being changed to "Zoo Boulevard" when they built the new zoo - more than forty years ago. I'm using a DeLorme map program now. It's obviously somewhat more accurate, but I'm not really sure as yet how much better it really is. Some features that were in the old program have disappeared, and the new program only shows "points of interest" for commercial "places to buy something," probably only those who paid to be advertised. (e.g. it shows mortuaries but not cemetaries.) John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: Rapparee Date: 22 Nov 13 - 09:19 PM Back in June I was driving around New Mexico, outside Albeque, following my GPS's directions. After taking me into a small cluster of old mobile homes it said, "Turn left on Firebreak Road." Some of the boulders on "firebreak" road were bigger than the car -- and it was just that, a firebreak. I turned around and followed my nose to a road heading west and eventually reached my destination -- after a road of dust-covered rocks and worse. Put not thy total faith in automation, for it can and doth lead astray those who do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: Rapparee Date: 22 Nov 13 - 09:24 PM Come to think of it, this proves you can find Kansas with your eyes closed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: JohnInKansas Date: 23 Nov 13 - 02:47 AM Some years ago I was in Boulder Colorado and the then-wife insisted she wanted to see the "gold mining town" of Gold Hill that was at the top of the mountain on Four Mile Canyon Road that ran past the motel where we were staying. I drove the family to Gold Hill up an "almost a road" with more twists and turns than a bucket full of snakes. On the map, it looked like about 9 miles from the motel to the "town," but the odometer showed a little over 30 miles with all the twists and turns. She then complained that she was bored, she needed a potty and there was no place ther to go, and she wanted to get back to the motel IMMEDIATELY. I pulled out the oil company road map and noted a short road called "Lickskillet Pass" that would make it "less than a mile" down to a good highway (Sunshine Canyon Highway) from where it would be about 6 miles to home on a good road. (The road map didn't indicate that the "road" descended 1200 ft in that mile.) We found the road, which looked fairly decent, so I started down. About 80 feet down it was no longer a decent road, too steep and with "large gravel" that prevented the brakes from stopping (although I could slow down intermittently before the car started sliding sideways to the edge of the road). Looking down on the downhill side the dropoff was too steep to see any dirt from the car windows. Several slides and washouts reduced the "road" to about 8 ft wide although most of it was 10 or 12 feet. We made the 1.7 miles (on the odometer - probably not accurate because the wheels were locked at least 10% of the time) to Sunshine Canyon Hwy in aout 4 minutes and I'd say nothing could have done it more slowly than I tried to. ("She" didn't mention still needing a potty when we got to the highway.) I never found a Boulder native who would believe that I drove my Buick down Lickskillet. A year later when I was back there, I drove up to see if it was true that they usually had a barricade to prevent anyone from using that road and they had indeed WELDED a 3" logging chain across the "entrance." Current maps no longer show Lickskillet, but there appears to be a new "street" that might actually be navigable. I ain't goin' back to look. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: gnu Date: 23 Nov 13 - 05:33 AM JiK... The Lickskillet description gave me the willies! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 23 Nov 13 - 09:35 AM Hi, John. If they can't fly the plane out, you know and I know that in Kansas they could just get everybody together and simply taxi it across town. People would co-operate. During a Chiefs game, when almost nobody is on the road, would be a good time. Of course some people would take the kids out so they could line up on the highway and wave, but that would not be a problem. They'd have to check the height of overpasses first, of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Nov 13 - 11:34 AM JIK - there was a notorious "green road" in Wales (UK) called "Brown Trousers" that sounds a bit like that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: JohnInKansas Date: 23 Nov 13 - 12:00 PM leenia - The wingspan on that airplane won't fit between the buildings on both sides of any road close to both airports. The original plan for the 747 called for fold-up wings just so the thing could get close to the loading ramps at the airports, but they decided it was easier to redesign the airports. This is a "big version" of the 747. The plane flew out at about noon on the day after it landed, so there really wasn't all that much of a problem. It did require crunching some numbers to be sure it could take off safely, but it wasn't that big a deal once they did the calculations. The field length for which an airplane is rated for takeoff includes a strip long enough to get going fast enough to lift-off, but also enough distance after that to stop in case of an abort of the takeoff. That makes for a very long field for an airplane this size, sometimes almost twice as long as what's needed just to get off the ground in a normal takeoff. Big airplanes, especially, almost never need to use much more than half the strip length for which they're rated, for takeoff or for landing, although they often use about "all there is" just so they don't spill the pilot's coffee. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: JohnInKansas Date: 23 Nov 13 - 12:03 PM RB - As Eisenhower reportedly said before D Day: "Pack my brown trousers." John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: GUEST,olddude Date: 23 Nov 13 - 10:39 PM Well I am a man and as any women will tell you ... WE DON'T ask directions |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 23 Nov 13 - 11:13 PM I used to have a bumper sticker that read, "Where am I? Where's my car?" GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: Gurney Date: 24 Nov 13 - 01:04 AM I took out a library book of American seafaring stories. The cover liners were a map of the world, and New Zealand wasn't on it! Hawaii was! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Does anybody knnow where we are? From: Bill D Date: 24 Nov 13 - 10:06 AM 40 years ago, a friend & I drove the "Oh my God road" from the old mining town of Central City, Colorado down to I-70 at Idaho Springs. see detailed info here Over the years, parts of it have been 'improved' and it has become a semi- tourist attraction for cyclists. (you can 'drive' the whole thing on Google Earth). In decent weather, it is merely awesome, but not 'too' bad. More interesting, and a bit like John's trip, was the 'road' from the rear of the Telluride, Colo. dump back up the mountain so we could photograph the town & the dump for an EPA project. Yes.. at points, the passenger had to look out at the road and tell the driver how close the wheels were to the edge. (we were driving a Federally issued van/wagon which was pretty wide.) At the end of the 'road', turning around was kinda interesting, too. |
