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BS: artists, what color is red?
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Subject: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 19 Jul 13 - 11:21 AM Today's Friday. On Monday I'm going to teach a class on making jewelry and using a color wheel. I've got two sources for color wheels. One is a wheel I bought in an art store. The other source is color wheels on the Internet. On the wheel from the art store, 'red' is a cherry color. (It surprised me.) I would say it had purple added to it, but why would they lie? On the wheel from the Internet, 'red' is a lot more orange. No, I lie. It IS orange. So, artists, based on your education and experience, what color is red? Finally, is 'fire-engine red' actually red? |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Jul 13 - 11:38 AM leeneia, I have a color wheel, which shows "red," shading into red-violet on one side, and orange-red on the other. In other words, the color red itself has shades, tending toward red-violet on the one hand and orange-red on the other. That sounds redundant, but that is the best way I can describe the color. All colors have shades. A "pure" red would be from the middle of the red spectrum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Sooz Date: 19 Jul 13 - 11:38 AM Better to ask a scientist! The Pantone colour index defines all colours nowadays. The link shows the result of my search for "red" Pantone Reds |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Bill D Date: 19 Jul 13 - 11:45 AM Red - From 6,300 to 7,550 angstroms |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Jul 13 - 11:49 AM "Fire-engine red" is an intense(high pigment) red, from close to the middle of the spectrum. There are variants. A more scientific way to describe color, is by its wavelength. Red has a wavelength of 650nm, orange about 590 nm, and violet around 400 nm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Jul 13 - 12:05 PM leeneia, artists would more likely use the following: Here are the common oil paint colors. There will be different names for acrylic colors and watercolors. Many would have studied the (scientific) color spectrum in art school, but would not remember the details. They tend to think in the types of paint they use, and how they can be mixed to obtain the colors they want. www.google.ca/images?imgurl=http://cdn.dickblick.com/items/016/41 |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Jul 13 - 12:10 PM http://favim.com/images/216314 A simpler link to these artist paint colors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Ebbie Date: 19 Jul 13 - 12:11 PM When I took a course in a print shop I was surprised to discover the wide differences among the colors; the tack, viscosity, weight, flow bore little resemblance to each other. Red was especially striking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: frogprince Date: 19 Jul 13 - 12:43 PM Off the top, I would think that about the only way to be sure you're seeing "true" red would be to turn a prism on the whitest paper available and look at the center of the red stripe. Getting from there to a printed or electronically generated rendering obviously involves a whole bunch of chemical and technical complication. Add to that how markedly our perception of a color is affected by ambient light, adjacent colors, and the size of the sample. Photoshop "swatches" include "rgb" red, "cmyk" red, and one labeled "true" red. Put into a space that takes up most of the screen, the differences between them seem subtle, and any of them looks quite "red" to me. But, looking at them among the varied small swatches, none of them looks at all pure; the "true" red looks decidedly orange to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Crowhugger Date: 19 Jul 13 - 03:47 PM Colours created using light are very different from those created using pigments. To me, truly red paint is that to which one can add yellow and get a clean orange, AND take another dollop from the same can, add blue and get a clean purple. If either result is muddy, it isn't what I consider true red and I try again. The local specialty paint store has $2 or $3 mini-pots of many colours including the basics, which allows for reasonably priced testing. Much harder to find is true blue, one that'll make both an unmuddied green when mixed with a clean yellow AND an unmuddied purple when mixed with clean red. The truth, in my experience, is that neither cherry nor vermilion are a "true" red, that it is somewhere between. So if a perfect colour wheel is important, maybe keep looking. Or, why not plan to use these conflicting versions as a lesson in the fact of diverse perceptions? Years ago in Sunday school I experienced a simple yet very instructive way to reconstruct white light from coloured pigments. We made colour wheels with basic wax crayons, poked a pencil in the centre and spun them fast as we could. Nothing special. Repeated the colouring exercise except had the wheel divided in 12 and then 18, so each colour was a narrower band and occurred twice or thrice on the wheel. Now when spun fast enough the colours appeared white toward the outside of the circle. I am willing to bet that if this was done with the colour wheels you mention, each would create a different shade of white, neither of them especially clean. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Lighter Date: 19 Jul 13 - 04:00 PM What all this means is that in ordinary conversation, "red" is a blanket term that means different shades to different people at different times. And there are more possible colors than there are everyday words to describe them. Unless we're color-blind, we all sort of know what "red" means. I doubt, though, that most people would describe many of the Pantone colors as simply "red." Somebody on TV just claimed that "pink" does not exist. All I overheard beyond that was that "pink" isn't in the spectrum. I'm sure he can offer a theoretical explanation that would have no impact on the lives of most of us. >Yawn<. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Bobert Date: 19 Jul 13 - 04:58 PM Having a BFA I think I'm somewhat qualified to weigh in on this one... There are 7 basic colors from which every other color are made... Think ROY G. BIV... That's the way it is taught in art school... Red... Orange... Yellow... Green... Blue... Violet... Indigo... These are the basic colors which means they are what they are and not composites of other colors... Here's are a couple other interesting things... First, if you take all the basic colors and mix them proportionately you get white!!! Yup, that's right... Second, black is not a color... It is the absence of color... Good luck... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 13 - 06:33 PM This is my favorite painting of all time. Peasant red. Very festive. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wedding_Dance |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 19 Jul 13 - 06:45 PM Now I am neither an artist nor a physicist, but I can tell you "for sure" that whatever you believe to "see from the Internet" is actually what your monitor or (- worse -) printer makes of it. These devices can produce much smaller a section of colours than a healthy eye can see. Even these colours will be slightly different for each model of monitor, and also depend on settings of the monitor and of the graphics hardware of your computer. If your monitor shows the following bright "computer red" as a definite orange, you can try to adjust the monitor. Bottom line: for your project, use a colour reference whose material is as similar to the jewelry as possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: frogprince Date: 19 Jul 13 - 06:50 PM Bobert, are you saying that if you take actual quantities of paint in the basic colors and mix them you will get white? I get how spinning a color wheel works, and I've seen one spin fast and show as a fairly pure white. But I was under the impression that the more paints you mixed, the more of the spectrum would be absorbed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Jul 13 - 06:57 PM Bruegel used cinnabar in many of his reds. (See painting linked by Guest). A red mercury sulfide. Toxic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Bobert Date: 19 Jul 13 - 07:30 PM In theory, yeah, f-prince... It's similar to that fast spinning color wheel... I've also been fond of Bruegel's "Wedding Dance"... It was ahead of its time in terms of content but what I love is the motion... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 19 Jul 13 - 07:53 PM Frogprince, as far as I understand it, paints are subtractive colours absorbing light. I think to mix to get white you need additive colour eg, the light sources on a CRT. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 19 Jul 13 - 08:23 PM Bobert, I was taught "VIBGYOR" (VIB-gyor) for violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange, red. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Bobert Date: 19 Jul 13 - 08:28 PM Works for me, Dave... I'll stick with Roy G. Biv 'cause it got beat into me... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: JohnInKansas Date: 19 Jul 13 - 09:41 PM Dave-O and Bobert - Many of us remember the Radio Manufacturers Association (later the EIA) color code sequence of Black-Brown-Red-Orange-Yellow-Green-Blue-Violet-Gray-White, for which the common mnemotic is "Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly." THE REALLY CORRECT ANSWER TO "WHAT COLOR IS RED" IS "WHAT COLOR DO YOU WANT IT TO BE?" The "colors" are a continuous spectrum, and deciding to call a particular "frequency" by a certain name is rather arbitrary. Different users pick different places to put each of the "names" in common use. For some "technical uses" once one or two places in the spectrum are "named" the others are determined (mathematically?) by frequency ratios, but for other uses they're picked almost at random. Even with "random naming" there is a general "orderliness" - which makes it possible to create "color wheels" that give a general idea of where all the names should go, but in most usages this is not "hard science." IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE TWO SEPARATE AND LARGELY INDEPENDENT COLOR WHEELS TO CONTEND WITH. Various names are used for the two, but a common usage is to call one the "additive color" idea and the other the "subtractive color" notion. On a monitor you approximate "additive color," since a pixel emits a particular color. Two closely adjacent pixels may emit two different colors. You thus have color 1 added to color 2, and you see an intermediate color. On a painting you get "subtractive color," since a blob absorbs everything except color 1, and another pigment mixed into that blob absorbs everything except color 2, so you see everything except color 1, with some of color 1 blocked by color 2, and some of everything except color 2 with some of color 2 blocked by color 1. This obviously gives you a different resultant than "adding two different colored lights." If you add together three primary colors of lights, you get white. If you add together three primary colors of pigments, you generally get black (or mud). For "transparent gems" it might be more appropriate to use the "additive color" wheel, since a light of a particular color comes from (through) each stone. For opaque gems, it might (or might not) be more appropriate to use the "subtractive" wheel, since you see reflected light rather than transmitted light, although some "opaque" gems actually return lots of refracted light too. Then there are the "translucent" gems with even mor mixed kinds of colors. As a practical matter, there is sufficient correlation between the two wheels that it doesn't often make much difference which you use for "mixed gems," and as a matter of convenience you probably can just pick one and ignore the details. Confusion results when you try to describe something using your color wheel, and someone else is listening in terms of their color wheel - and there are lots of different color wheels for different purposes. There are Standards that prescribe a particular color wheel for certain uses, but that's no help if that's not what you're doing. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 13 - 09:48 PM Grishka, looks perfect on my iphone. Very Russian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 19 Jul 13 - 10:21 PM Somebody on TV just claimed that "pink" does not exist. All I overheard beyond that was that "pink" isn't in the spectrum. Pink is simply a lighter value of red. Darker and lighter values of colors are produced by mixing them with white (lighter values) or black (darker values). "Olive green" is not green at all. It's a dark value of yellow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: JohnInKansas Date: 19 Jul 13 - 10:54 PM In common "painter" terminology adding white to another color produces a "tint" of the color - but it's still the same color. Adding black to another color produces a "shade" of the color - but it's still the same color. For color systems used on monitors, the same effects are (sort of) often described as "brightness" changes, although the number of contributing experts makes it impossible to insist on any particular nomenclature. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: JennieG Date: 19 Jul 13 - 11:27 PM As BWL says, olive green is a black/yellow mix. I have some shot taffeta fabric (shot fabric has warp and weft threads of different colours, which can give an iridescent effect) which looks, to the casual observer, a gorgeous rich olive green.....but no, the threads in one direction are black, and in the other direction a bright canary yellow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 20 Jul 13 - 09:51 AM Thanks for the sample, Grishka. That's the color I'm going to call red for my class. Cherry is out, fire engine is in. Q, it was kind of you to include the links, but they didn't work. (I usually find that links to an image search can't be passed on further.) Jennie, I have a jacket made of fabric which has black threads one day and orange the other. The result looks maroon! Meanwhile, thanks to everybody that contributed thus far. As for me, the OP, I'm done here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 20 Jul 13 - 10:54 AM Any object which reflects light in a range of frequencies ~430 - 480 THz is red. But fire engine red is probably the most recogniseable and commonly perceived as red, when primary colours are displayed. The differences between primary colours is to do with artists using Red - Blue - Yellow, while electronic monitors used Red - Blue - Green and printers use Magenta - Cyan - Yellow. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Lighter Date: 20 Jul 13 - 12:40 PM > Pink is simply a lighter value of red. So is it imaginary or not? |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: JohnInKansas Date: 20 Jul 13 - 03:22 PM For pigment paints, pink is a mixture of red pigment with white pigment. Except in the most simplistic of interpretations, a color is described by color coordinates that include sufficient dimensions to describe both basic pigment color and degree of whiteness, so a particular "pink" is a particular color. In "painterly terms" pink is a "tint" of red so it really is a different color if you describe it by its coordinates in the color spectrum. On the "additive color wheel" (transmission or emission colors) adding white to something that's red doesn't change the redness, but just makes it show more brightly, so it's not a tint of red. It's the same red made more visible, as if you put a brighter (white) illumination on the picture. (I'm sure that clarifies things.) John |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Mr Happy Date: 21 Jul 13 - 12:57 PM RED! |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:33 PM My "sample" above is simply an HTML command telling your browser to tell your computer to tell your monitor to light its little red lamps to 100%, its green and blue ones to 0%. You can see those spots with a magnifying glass. All colours that normal monitors can produce are combinations of red, green, and blue, given by three numbers. "Computer white" is by definition 100% red, 100% blue, and 100% green. "Cherry" usually has some blue in it, e.g. 100% red, 0% green, and 40% (!) blue: Note that this is pure technology. Physics, physiology, psychology, and art theory have different approaches, yielding slightly different results. Good monitors are designed to reproduce colour photographs as naturally as possible, inevitably imperfectly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: JohnInKansas Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:15 PM Some time ago, according to ancient writings, a fellow by the name of "Land" described in his scriptures relating to the "Religion of Polaroid" how one could take two pictures of the same object, with one taken through one color filter (the word might have been "red" but translators aren't sure) and the other taken through a different color filter (the translation "green" was suggested?). If the two "slides" were used to project the image onto a single screen, with the images accurately misaligned, people saw it in "full color." Attempts to explain the phenomenon, as found in the surviving writings of scribes known then as "tech writers" never, so far as is now known, produced agreement on how it worked, although the culture of the time was widely admired for the evidence that, unlike today, many of the scribes actually could spell most of the words they used. Vague references to a "Stereo Poloroid camera" suggest that a device to apply the process was (perhaps?) made. It appears, however, that the complexity of the apparatus required prevented the method from becoming "popular" (commercially successful) and it faded into obscurity, or perhaps was hidden away by one of the secretive "Polaroid cults" for unknown purposes. Few true belivers apparently still practice the religion. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:15 PM As for the "Russian colour", the red stripe at the bottom of the current flag of Russia is defined for diplomatic purposes as 213-43-30 (where 255-255-255 is white), thus even a tad on the orange side. For the former Soviet flag, similar colours have been used, sometimes much darker. The red parts of the current UK Flag are specified 207-20-43, of the US Flag 178-34-52, both slightly on the bluish side. Apart from national and ideological symbolism (in the Russian case more about panslavism than communism), flag colours reflect the technology and aesthetics of cloth colouring. Shining and transparent objects have different requirements. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Jeri Date: 21 Jul 13 - 04:51 PM Cherry look pink to me. All the factors to take into account: how you code it, how your computer interprets it, and how your eyes see it. This looks like plain old red. (Hex code #FF0000) |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Penny S. Date: 21 Jul 13 - 06:18 PM Indigo is not a pure colour. I, for one, have always had trouble distinguishing it in a spectrum, and this is because the reason we have 7 named colours is because the person who first wrote up the details of the spectrum was also deeply into the weirder reaches of ancient wisdom (yes, you were Mr Newton, we've got your writings, we know). Seven heavenly bodies, seven days of the week in creation, seven notes in music, and goodness lnows what else, so there had to be seven colours. Actual indigo is a very subtractive dull sort of colour, unsuitable for application to the brightness of the rainbow. It works much better with the old range of wax crayons, which omitted indigo, but included two intermediate colours between each of the six. Six colours or eighteen or infinity...but not seven. One of my bees in my bonnet, this. Richard of York gave battle in vain. And ended in a car park. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: DMcG Date: 22 Jul 13 - 10:29 AM Amber, emerald, iris, aubergine, crimson, purple? |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Jim Dixon Date: 22 Jul 13 - 11:30 PM Color is very much culturally determined. If you show people a spectrum and ask them to draw a line at the point where red turns to orange, different people will draw the line at different places. And people from different cultures will draw the line at wildly different places. That's assuming they have different words in their language for "red" and "orange." If not, they won't even understand the question. I find it interesting that, in English at least, we have this separate word "pink" that means "light red," but we don't have any analogous word for "light green," "light yellow," etc. We do have "tan" for "light brown" (yet we sing "Jeannie with the light brown hair"—you wouldn't say "tan hair"), and gray/grey for "light black" (or is it "dark white"?). If I had to define "red" in a way that would be universally understood, I would say "the color of fresh blood"—but that only defines its hue. You still have the problem of lightness/darkness. A pint of blood in an IV bag looks much darker than a tiny drop of blood on your fingertip. Context is everything. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: DMcG Date: 23 Jul 13 - 11:49 AM Quite so, Jim. It is very easy to lose track of the fact the scientific definition of colour, - i.e. a certain frequency of the electromagnetic spectrum - is totally divorced from what most people mean by colour, which has perception as a key component. In fact, people's use of 'colour' is remarkably complex. Is my red jacket still red at night or if I go into a club where the lights are blue? blue? Some people will say it is, because it is the same jacket and therefore it has a fixed colour in some sense; otherwise will say that if you have never seen the jacket outside and only see it under the blue light so you call it a murky grey colour, then that's what it's colour is. I remember a tv programme years ago in which a lawyer had to have brain surgery which, if it failed, would mean he would probably talk gibberish. Shortly before the surgery he had a case where something was wrong but he couldn't figure out what. When he gained consciousness he said "White helmets look orange under sodium lights" which the surgeons we dismayed at, but those working on the case understood immediately. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 23 Jul 13 - 12:03 PM DMcG, the scientific definition of colour is not a certain frequency of the electromagnetic spectrum. See Wikipedia. Various sciences know a lot more about colour than non-scientists tend to realize. A more interesting philosophical problem is: how can we find out whether a lawyer talks gibberish? In what sense is that related to winning or losing a lawsuit? |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: DMcG Date: 23 Jul 13 - 01:55 PM Well, as I say, it is complex. But here's a clipping from that Wiki page, as you suggest: ===== Electromagnetic radiation is characterized by its wavelength (or frequency) and its intensity. When the wavelength is within the visible spectrum (the range of wavelengths humans can perceive, approximately from 390 nm to 700 nm), it is known as "visible light".... Spectral colors[edit] The familiar colors of the rainbow in the spectrum – named using the Latin word for appearance or apparition by Isaac Newton in 1671 – include all those colors that can be produced by visible light of a single wavelength only, the pure spectral or monochromatic colors. ===== I was perhaps unclear in not explaining that when I say science I generally mean the physical sciences and not, for example, psychology. For the physical sciences, since perception is not measureable independently of the specific observer, 'colour' normally means the spectral colour(or more precisely a specific mix of spectral colours with varying intensity) even when reflected from an object. Once you get into a definition such as 'The colour of an object depends on both the physics of the object in its environment and the characteristics of the perceiving eye and brain' as used later in the Wiki page, you enter a far more complex realm where you move from the sort of nice clear measurements beloved of the physical sciences into a sort of statistical mush where the exact factors of relevance depend not only on the perceiver but also on what the experimenter is seeking to highlight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 Jul 13 - 03:36 PM Leeneia- What did you select from these posts to tell your class? |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 23 Jul 13 - 04:55 PM DMcG, I am not going to play the physics teacher here. Just for the record: Colour is primarily about human light receptors, not about light itself. Note e.g. that "physiological white" can be produced by very different mixtures of frequencies, without any human eye being able to detect a difference in direct confrontation, whereas measuring devices can. Neurology and psychology (of senses) are secondary processors, still in the range of exact science. Personality, culture, language, and art - to come back to leeneia's question - form a tertiary layer, obviously depending on the individual (- "in the eye of the beholder"). |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST Date: 23 Jul 13 - 05:40 PM I think we've both given our point of view! I don't deny at all that the light receptors and the neural processing is one valid and common understanding of colour. However it won't take you too long to find references to colours in science textbooks for things like sodium flame tests alongside the spectral lines expressed in terms of frequency. But it essentially the same argment as whether a vibration of the air of a certain frequency constitutes a sond without an observer. Either side of the argument can be right or wrong depending on the exact interpretation used. The need for an observer, for example, says that planets we know of by the perturbations they make on stars but we cannot directly observe have no colours. Not a uniform colour, mind, but no colour at all. That is logically consistant but not a conclusion everyone would be happy with. (Not a physics teacher, myself, but one who has spent a lifetime in scientific and engineering fields) |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,DMcG Date: 24 Jul 13 - 01:30 AM Apologies for the anonymous post but I am sure all guessed it is one of mine |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,Red Queen Date: 24 Jul 13 - 01:42 AM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFcuN2zI3u0&sns=em |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 24 Jul 13 - 06:07 AM Some authors use the word "colour" slovenly when they actually mean "frequency of an electromagnetic wave". Let us agree that the two notions are manifestly distinct, not depending on the presence of an observer. I am definitely not keen on an argument here, just feel responsible to avoid some confusion. Note also that the colour of a non-radiating object is normally defined as the colour of the reflected light coming from it, and thus depends on the exact nature of the light that is being reflected - not only its colour. This is particularly striking with jewelry, and makes it very hard to compare to paint. (I did not spend a lifetime in scientific and engineering fields, but a school time at decent schools.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: DMcG Date: 24 Jul 13 - 07:08 AM I agree, we shall not argue! There are indeed several overlapping concepts that people often do not distinguish between. I misinterpreted your comment about 'being the physics teacher', I see. Please do not take my response as an attempt to claim authority in any sense. As with most experience, it mainly emphasises how little one really knows... |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,Red Queen Date: 24 Jul 13 - 08:02 AM That's true Grishka. I am somewhat of a painting expert. Transforming a room with paint is one of my favorite things to do. So I am aware that lighting, whether natural or artificial, has everything to do with how your color is going to look. And ditto with the type of paint used- flat, satin, semi-gloss and gloss are each going to look different as each have different reflective values. You have to put enough consideration of these factors into your paint color choice or you will wind up with something you hate. Red is especially tricky. My daughter in law never listens to me. She keeps making me help her paint rooms in her house these godawful colors. She chose a dark olive for my grandson's room just because it was an exact match to one of the colors in his comforter. Ugh! So dreary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 24 Jul 13 - 11:15 AM Just to prevent yet another myth: I am not anything like a physics teacher; my knowledge - for what it's worth - comes from my own school education, some reading (books, Wikipedia, ...), and discussing with real scientists. My main competence outside music (e.g. in tech matters) is reading texts carefully and applying ordinary logic. In questions of real importance, such as the significance of the Big Bang theory discussed last year, I can consult an academic physicist. I hear aunt Leeneia sighing. Red Queen seems to be the expert she is really looking for (the name says it), though her advice may defy Internet communication. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: sciencegeek Date: 24 Jul 13 - 11:59 AM love the geek talk.... LOL interpreting color is interesting... the physics of the visible light part of the spectrum... the anatomy/physiology of the critter receiving the light and the neural pathways that fit the pieces to make a pattern that provides information to said critter. Red Queen... I understand your feelings about the room... when we were kids, my mom (an artist) let us pick our bedroom colors ( and we did the painting as well) and I would go for as close to sunlight yellow as I could get and my brother would pick a dark, dreary blue - an early man cave I guess from the feel of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: frogprince Date: 24 Jul 13 - 07:03 PM The most striking example of light and color I remember: I owned a little red car, which I think most would agree was a little to the orange side. I was living in Chicago. The city replaced quite a few street lights, I think with sodium lights. I parked my car in a lot in daylight, came back after dark, and spent a while locating my car. It showed up as a grotesque dark olive green. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: JohnInKansas Date: 24 Jul 13 - 07:40 PM Trick question on a Jr Hi Science quiz: "If a black body is the most efficient radiator, why are radiators painted silver?" Answer (official): "Because it's prettier." (Sometimes the theory is less important than it seems.) John |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,Red Queen Date: 24 Jul 13 - 08:11 PM In case you are wondering what Bruegel's peasants used to dye their festive garments and accessories, here you go: http://m.wisegeek.com/what-is-madder.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST Date: 24 Jul 13 - 08:46 PM IMO, in art or decor, red is best as an accent color. It is meant to command your attention, to stand out from and contrast with everything around it. Therefore it should be used sparingly. This is a perfect example of what I mean: http://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Roodkapje1.jpg I think it works like that in nature too. Check out that wolf in the background. Looks like he's up to no good, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Pete Jennings Date: 25 Jul 13 - 07:39 AM Plenty of reds to choose from here. In the UK, the rainbow colours are remembered by the saying Richard Of York Gave Battle In Vain, which is the same sequence used by Bobertz above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 25 Jul 13 - 06:19 PM Somebody asked what I decided. I decided that the color wheel I bought is a little off, and that its red is not truly red but has been shaded with purple. I believe that true red is indeed the traditional color of a fire engine. I grew suspicious when I realized that its blue sample is definitely turquoise. As a scientific test I took a CD to a sunny window and studied the rainbows on the back of it. I learned that you can hardly see the red in those rainbows. The light turns to other colors almost instantly. I wonder why that is. And if you look at images of rainbows seen in the sky, you will note that the red quickly changes to orange and yellow. Maybe the poet who wrote 'Nothing gold can stay' should have been writing about red instead. However, I did use the advice on my color wheel to design a long necklace in blue, turquoise and green. It is really nifty. I can't wait for turtleneck season to return so I can wear it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 25 Jul 13 - 06:52 PM I forgot to mention something. I've never believed that story the science teachers give us about how the rainbow is produced by sunlight going through water droplets. Because of Sir Isaac Newton and his prism and all that. (They talk really fast here.) Think about it. Sir Isaac had one prism and one light source. He let the light shine through and got a rainbow. All well and good. Meanwhile, down my street, gazillions of tiny water droplets are bouncing around, not only in Brownian motion, but in extra-fast and erratic Brownian motion after a storm. It's about 5 pm, and the low rays of the sun come shining into the droplets. And somehow the droplets 'know' how to get all the tiny red rays into one arc of color, and all the tiny orange rays into another, smaller arc and all the yellow rays into... It doesn't make any sense. I don't believe it. I don't know what the answer is, but that's not the answer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,Red Queen Date: 25 Jul 13 - 07:08 PM Nancy's red cloak. LOVE these girls. My idols all throughout high school. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T_-MAnZla68 |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST Date: 26 Jul 13 - 07:54 AM Ah, but when you say "Sir Isaac had one prism" you miss a trick. A physicial prism is not a like simple mathematical object. It consists of a very large number of particles internally, especially if made of something like quartz, and these particles vary in size from macroscopic down to the molecular scales. If anything, the difference between your rain cloud and the prism is that the rain cloud has many fewer component parts to bounce the light around. You are right to use quotations around 'know' when you said "the droplets 'know' how to get all the tiny red rays into one arc of color". Knowledge does not come into it, it is simply a piece of physics, analogous to the way all the sand particles 'know' how to lie flat on the beach to make a single(fairly) smooth surface without any form of direct communication between the particles. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,DMcG Date: 26 Jul 13 - 07:55 AM Me, above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 26 Jul 13 - 09:58 AM The prism is solid, and if of quartz, its molecules are held in a tidy crystalline array. The raindrops are engaged in turbulent motion. How does the big rainbow emerge from a gazillion bouncing, microscopic prisms? |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,Red Queen Date: 26 Jul 13 - 11:59 AM Everything you ever wanted to know about rainbows can be found on good old Wikipedia: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow It's better just to say that it is the sun shining through the mist. The most beautiful one I saw was at Niagara Falls on a sunny day. I got a stunning photo. To be honest, a scientific discussion of red does not interested me further. I'm geeked out. I wonder why you don't make cultural associations to the color red. Very one-sidedly left-brained. But, as my little grandson with the red bike says, "Whateva." Anyway, Farewell Red Thread. Have fun talking science. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: JohnInKansas Date: 26 Jul 13 - 01:07 PM A simple prism can be, and most commonly is, made of amorphous glass and the "tidy array of atoms" has little to do with how it works. All that you really have to know to explain what it does is that the refractive index is different than that of the medium outside the prism, and the speed of light inside the prism is different - invariably slower - than outside. The colors seen on a CD/DVD are produced by a completely different phenomenon called Fraunhofer diffraction that results when light passes through, or is reflected by, a "grating" having many closely spaced lines. The "tracks" on an optical disk are close enough to produce the effect, but are not of sufficiently regular spacing and width for precision use which is one reason why the "spectrum" seen may "drop" some colors or they may be only weakly present. A rainbow in the sky is easily explained by the refraction of light passing through a more or less spherical drop of water, and can be seen for a single drop. Having many drops within an "angle of view" that varies slowly across an area of the sky makes the rainbow big enough to be seen at a distance. A more sophisticated "theory of rainbows" can apply both the spectral separation from refraction by a drop with the difraction effect of many drops, but hardly anyone is interested in the minor changes in the results predicted so the calculations are seldom done. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 26 Jul 13 - 03:01 PM Leeneia, by the United States Constitution you are allowed to believe or disbelieve whatever you want. If you find that pot of gold (but is it at the right or left end???), buy us a round, willya? |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: DMcG Date: 26 Jul 13 - 06:51 PM "I wonder why you don't make cultural associations to the color red. Very one-sidedly left-brained" But I do! That's a fascinating discussion in its own right. But I try to keep to one aspect at a time otherwise everything gets very complicated very quickly, and the side I *have* talked about is quite complicated enough, thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 31 Jul 13 - 10:59 AM Somebody asked what I finally did for the class. The class was held two days ago (had to be rescheduled.) I had two girls, one ten and one twelve, and their grandmother. It went well, although I am not an experienced teacher and not used to kids. I used a color wheel with fire-engine red, not the suspicious cherry color mentioned in the first post. We talked about the color wheel, and especially about having a main color and setting it off with its opposite on the color wheel. Patty, the 10 year-old, did just that. She selected beads in a soft coral color which she combined with sparkly glass beads in blue-green. She started out making a bracelet but had so much fun stringing beads that the bracelet was too long, so she declared it was an anklet. Jeanne, the old girl, was a very quiet, serious person. I don't think she smiled once in the whole 2.5 hours. (She wasn't sullen, just serious.) She made a bracelet of very sparkley gray stones alternating with black. I was told, "Jeanne is into elegance." Grandma made herself a bracelet of turquoise beads combined with small white sparklers. At the end of the class, we had a fast demonstration on how to make earrings. We made co-ordinating earrings in coral and in gray for the girls. I offered to help Grandma whip a pair together, but she said, "I think I have enough earrings." I replied, "What's that got to do with anything?" and got a laugh. In the course of the class two or three phone calls to Grandma from anxious relatives wanting to know What the Heck was going on. Perhaps they felt their kids had been grabbed, rabbed or stabbed, having been taken into my obviously dangerous neighborhood with actual bungalows in it. Poor bimbos! Little did they realize that it took my students half an hour just to pore over my incredible bead collection and decide between the ruby red, the warm, alluring turqoise or the yellow beads like honey made wearable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Suzy Sock Puppet Date: 01 Aug 13 - 03:28 AM Sounds like fun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 01 Aug 13 - 11:56 AM I can't say it was fun, actually, but I know what you mean. I think I hid it well, but I was rather nervous. I had no idea three people would need that much attention, and their needs were justified. Making a bracelet is more complicated than I thought. Nonetheless, it was gratifying, and I'm glad I did it. I must admit it faked me out when I learned that the ten-year-old didn't know that 5+7=12. We're talking about kids from one of the richest counties in the nation here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: Crowhugger Date: 01 Aug 13 - 06:59 PM Thanks for the update. It sounds like they had most of the fun, which is fine for a first time. Now, would you do that again now that you have an idea what supports and time may be needed? |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 01 Aug 13 - 08:37 PM Yep! |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 02 Aug 13 - 05:00 AM Opaque pigments (oil and temporal and acrylic) Translucent pigments (water color) Absorb the spectrum and reflect back the perceived color. Old fashioned color monitors relied on three colored pixels. LED is a differed beast. Try a look at the spectrum on this html page. And the followup explanation Sincerely, Gargoyle Why in the good Lords creation would You TEACH a class when you lack the necessary primary foundation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 02 Aug 13 - 10:02 AM I duuno, Gargoyle. Might have had something to do with the gasps of delight when I displayed my collection of necklaces, all sorted by the colors of the rainbow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 03 Aug 13 - 03:15 AM Wow my post missed the most important piece. HTML full color specs found here computerhope.com/htmcolor.htm Sincerely, Gargoyle Silly - I forgot url links could not be posted by guests in the Lower kingdom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST,SJL Date: 03 Aug 13 - 03:37 AM leeneia, look at this: http://www.rosaryworkshop.com/ Aren't they beautiful? Look over the site. Beautiful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: artists, what color is red? From: GUEST Date: 03 Aug 13 - 12:24 PM I made my own rosary with this in place of a crucifix: http://m.bonanza.com/listings/gerochristo-3464-sterling-silver-ornate-egg-locket I detest the crucifix. As a matter of fact it was absent in the first five centuries of Christianity. If someone you loved died, you would use a symbol that celebrated their life, not their death.. My rosary has 21 beads, carved from the prunings of olive trees from the Holy Land. And they also sent something I didn't ask for. a special laminated card with a snippet of willow and a Hebrew inscription. I figured it out. Hoshanna Rabbah. It's "last call.": http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Jewish_Holidays/Sukkot/Intermediate_Day Such a beautiful gift. I will keep it with me always. My rosary is a variation of the Yugoslavian Worker's Rosary otherwise known as the Peace Chaplet. And the spacer beads are opaque light blue with red glittering accents 21. It's a thing of beauty. |
