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BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year
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Subject: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: beardedbruce Date: 01 May 13 - 12:07 PM Until a decade ago, no one knew if Heracleion, believed to be an ancient harbor city, was fiction or real. Now, reports the Telegraph, the researchers who found it—150 feet beneath the surface of Egypt's Bay of Aboukir—are sharing some of the amazing historical artifacts preserved there. The finds include 64 ships, 16-foot-tall statues, 700 anchors and countless gold coins and smaller artifacts. According to underwater archeologist Franck Goddio, credited with having discovered the site, the city was probably built sometime around the 8th century B.C., which makes it older than the famed city of Alexandria. Over the years, it fell victim to a number of natural disasters before being swallowed by the sea, probably around A.D. 700. "We are just at the beginning of our research," said Goddio. "We will probably have to continue working for the next 200 years for [it] to be fully revealed and understood." http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/ancient-sunken-egyptian-city-reveals-1-200-old-201729650.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 May 13 - 12:19 PM Some time ago, I saw an article with pictures that showed ruins, also Mediterranean, that had been below sea level and were now exposed. I can't remember the name of the site, but a little googling probably would dig out the reports. Also recently, I saw a film showing parts of the lighthouse of Alexandra, now being recovered by divers. Parts of the U.S. Atlantic seacoast are being slowly reclaimed by the sea. A site for archaeologists 2000 years from now? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 May 13 - 12:46 PM The thread title is a little misleading, since there are rises and falls in the solid surface going on all the time. There are some trends in rise and fall of the sea, but most cases of "sunken cities" are much more likely to come from "they sank out of site" than from the "the sea rose up and took them." It probably didn't make much difference if you were one of those paddlin' hard to get out of whatever happened. That quibble aside, this is one of the more interesting recent discoveries. There are "historical records" claiming several "missing cities" that have made it difficult to study the cultural histories in the area, and there's a lot of division among scholars about which of the histories are just wrong (or maybe "exaggerated" is a better word?) and which are telling us about something for which we should be able to find archaeological confirmation and just haven't found the right stuff. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: GUEST,TIA Date: 01 May 13 - 01:51 PM What John said. The thread title lumps together a lot of places. It is actually quite complicated. And the *rate* of rise is very important. If you plow through this paper, you will learn a lot. http://www.pnas.org/content/108/27/11017.full.pdf+html click (should be free - no pay wall) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 May 13 - 01:59 PM Claude Debussy composed "The Sunken City (La cathedrale engloutie)", based on Breton myth. Can be heard on youtube. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: Penny S. Date: 01 May 13 - 02:11 PM The delta of the Nile is going to be in continuous collapse as deposits brought down by the river compact. Now, of course, it won't be building up any new layers because of Aswan. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: GUEST,TIA Date: 01 May 13 - 03:01 PM Ah yes Penny - thanks for mentioning the great clastic deltas. Isostasy! Sea level rise is sometimes the result of shoreline fall. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: Rapparee Date: 01 May 13 - 03:09 PM Oh, goody! How soon will my home (about 4800 feet above current sea level) become that desirable beach-front property? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: beardedbruce Date: 01 May 13 - 03:18 PM 696,686 years, at the present rate. But if you keep driving, we can get that down a few decades... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: beardedbruce Date: 01 May 13 - 03:21 PM Of course, that presumes an infinite amount of ice to melt- in actual fact, there is not enough water in all the ice to even raise the sea level 10 feet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: GUEST Date: 01 May 13 - 03:29 PM "Most predictions say the warming of the planet will continue and likely will accelerate. Oceans will likely continue to rise as well, but predicting the amount is an inexact science. A recent study says we can expect the oceans to rise between 2.5 and 6.5 feet (0.8 and 2 meters) by 2100, enough to swamp many of the cities along the U.S. East Coast. More dire estimates, including a complete meltdown of the Greenland ice sheet, push sea level rise to 23 feet (7 meters), enough to submerge London and Los Angeles." from http://ocean.nationalgeographic.com/ocean/critical-issues-sea-level-rise/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: beardedbruce Date: 01 May 13 - 03:42 PM A complete meltdown of the icecaps would entail a much greater amount of water vapor in the air, which locks in the greenhouse effect, keeping it hot and muggy, until the increased albedo cools it all down, and it snows, reforming the ice caps and increasing the albedo even more. Look at the total area of the ice caps, and their thickness above sea level , and then divide by the surface area of ALL the oceans, including the newly flooded coastlines. IMO, 10 ft ( 3,1 meters) give or take , would be the actual effect, for a few years. Then the cloud cover cools the entire earth down and we go back to a major ice age. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: Ed T Date: 01 May 13 - 06:11 PM "How soon will my home (about 4800 feet above current sea level) become that desirable beach-front property?" In addition to seal level changes, the land in your location could be rising or falling, depending on whether it was impacted by glaciers (many years ago) or not? In addition to melting ice, warm temperatures also expands water, leading to additional rise:. 2012 warm water |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: pdq Date: 01 May 13 - 06:32 PM Mr. Ed's link goes to an enviromentalist's blog site, even though the the graphics come from NOAA. Here is a quote from the site: "This is the crux of the crisis taking shape in the Arctic that is now changing its entire makeup and the ecosystems there as well as effecting our weather/climate here. This is also why it is so important for people to stand up against the Keystone XL (a million comments have been sent to the State Dept. already, mine one of them) but also against the Utah tarsands, any Arctic drilling and the current policy of this administration that calls for more fracking which is now being used as the latest ruse by the fossil fuel companies to keep their profits on track at the expense of this planet and us." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: Ed T Date: 01 May 13 - 06:57 PM Sorry, below is the NOAA news release. The second NOAA link is focused on climate, but also ocean related. Noaa News release Temperature anomalies |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: Rapparee Date: 01 May 13 - 07:12 PM You mean my l'il home in the Portneuf River Valley (no, it's not a winery even though it sounds like it should be) probably won't be beachfront property in my lifetime? Well, DANG!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: Ed T Date: 01 May 13 - 07:28 PM No Foreseeable soixante-neuf on a local ocean beach for you - only soixante-neuf on the local port-river-beach-valley, should you wish it so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: JohnInKansas Date: 02 May 13 - 05:44 AM One of the most seriously worried "modern" cities is probably Venice. They've been studying what's going on for some time now and have pretty well decided that the 30 inches "up the walls" is caused mainly by the soil sinking out from under the foundations of the city. Coupled with the very good possibility of significnt rising of the sea that becomes rather worrisome. The problem is believed to be fairly similar for New Orleans (LA), although the visible evidences are probably a little less obvious than for Venice. Boston used to joke about their "solution" citing that the wharf where they dumped the tea was about six city blocks from the water ca. 1960, because they'd already filled a lot of the harbor to the point where there was dry land for quite a distance out, but since most of the fill was old skirt hoops and degradable garbage the "improvements" may not be reliabley durable. A Masters thesis from the MIT architecture department ca. 1952 concluded that at least there should be no concern about the main building there since it was a rather novel design and it's "designed to float." (not quite true, but not too far off either) About all that can really be safely predicted by most of us is that the more things change the more they'll be different. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: GUEST Date: 02 May 13 - 06:05 AM A raft foundation, JiK? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 02 May 13 - 10:46 AM Beardedbruce, thank you for the link to the site about Herakleion. That photograph of the divers dwarfed by the huge statue is amazing! It looks like something from a movie. A while after I saw that picture, I realized that it was probably taken after somebody had hosed the statue off underwater to see what it was. They had probably come across a field of muddy humps, originally. But nonetheless, it's a remarkable photograph. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: beardedbruce Date: 02 May 13 - 11:05 AM I had thought there might be interest in the site, but it seems only the rising water is of interest here... The ships and the coins and artifacts should say quite a bit- 700 AD puts them at the beginning of the Caliphate period. We can always use more information about that significant period. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: Penny S. Date: 02 May 13 - 06:42 PM Piece in the New Scientist today pointing out that sea level changes due to melting ice may not be what seems obvious, as the sea level has bumps and dips in it due to varying gravity, and the gravitational pull exerted by the current ice sheets pulls the water up around Greenland and Antarctica. With the ice gone, the level will fall around those land masses, not rise. The water will, however, presumably go somewhere else. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: Bobert Date: 02 May 13 - 07:19 PM The polar ice caps are melting at an astounding rate... Google it up and see just how much has melted in the last 20 years... This ain't some cycle the the flat-Earthers want you to believe... 95% of climatologists agree not only that the globe is warming very fast but that it is a result of man burning everything he can burn... Unfortunately, Big Media is now consolidated and corporatized and is just going thru the motion of reporting the facts as it is a major source of right winged propaganda... They will give equal time to flat-Earters when it comes to talking about global warming... This confuses people... That is Big Media's intent... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: Don Firth Date: 02 May 13 - 09:17 PM Port Royal, Jamaica was frequented by all kinds of interesting folks, including pirates It sank into the sea in an earthquake in 1692. They say that when the currents are running strong, you can hear the church bell ringing deep underwater. Eerie! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: Will Fly Date: 03 May 13 - 03:50 AM That's a very common folk tale, Don. Debussy's "Submerged Cathedral" embodies it, and the medieval port of Dunwich (UK east coast) has had all but one of its several churches lost to the sea - with the same underwater bells ringing myth told to this day. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: theleveller Date: 03 May 13 - 07:17 AM Along the coast of East Yorkshire around 30 recorded towns and villages have been lost to the sea over the centuries due to erosion of the soft boulder clay cliffs. The seaside town of Hornsea where I was born is reputed to have had the following inscripton in the church spire (blown down down in a storm): "Hornsea broach, when I built thee, Thou was ten miles from Beverley, Ten miles from Bridlington, And ten miles from the sea." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 May 13 - 12:25 PM Just think- gondoliers in the streets (canals) in New York. Can't wait! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: JohnInKansas Date: 03 May 13 - 02:23 PM A raft foundation Most of Boston near the coast/harbor sits on a "topsoil" consisting of old sewer sludge, skirt hoops, and "unidentified detritis" producing about 60 feet of "dirt" you have to get through to get to the loose gravel on top of what they call euphemistically the "bedrock" where you can begin to sink foundation piers. At around the time the MIT thesis was written, building codes strictly prohibited any structure over 12 stories tall. That was also about the time when "modern architects" began seeking "variations" that eventually produced the most notable "tall building" in the area originally called "the John Hancock Office Tower" that went, IIRC, to 33 stories. (The official name has been changed since, of course, and some other tall buildings have gone up.) The "Hancock" was also one of the first "Darth Vader Buildings" using the grey-brown windows for sunlight blocking for "ecological advantage" by reducing air conditioning energy requirements. The "grey" aspect sort of gives such buildings a "look of ominous death" and many places now have at least one or two for which the locals apply the name. (The nearest local one in my area is the "Koch Industries International Headquarters" but it's only 5 or 6 stories. Draw your own conclusions about the "ominous.") The MIT building actually is "floated on the mud" and was considered quite "innovative" when it was built, so it's been well known among architects and engineers. (Of course there are lots of other MIT buildings, some of which are "offensively modern.") The thesis has been proposed as one of the first uses of "precision optical devices" for surveying purposes, but I never got a copy to see exactly what instrumentation was used. There are foundation "piers" extending into the mud, but they don't go to bedrock and only serve to keep all the parts together while it slips slowly down toward the harbor. It likely won't float on water, but by the time it gets to the harbor it might still float out quite a way on the sludge that apparently continues to accumulate. Ask again in about 2400 years (one worst-case guesstimate) and we'll look at whether it got to the Longfellow bridge yet. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 May 13 - 02:31 PM The town of Venice in California was a developer's dream. Never completed, but still an interesting place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: pdq Date: 03 May 13 - 02:32 PM All honest scientists put the sea level rise at from 2 inches per century up to 7 inches per centrury in the last couple of millinia. If we pick a nice inbetween number like 4.6 inches per century, we have around 5 feet of rise since the time of Muhammad. That means the rest of the 150 feet that the ruins are under water have nothing to do with the rise in sea level. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: Ed T Date: 03 May 13 - 05:37 PM Different coastal areas could potentially be impacted by other factors, adding to the direct impact of sea level rise. Here is one: Gulf Strem impacts |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: Rumncoke Date: 03 May 13 - 05:46 PM You don't need to worry so much about the ice - it is the permafrost which will be the real problem. As the permafrost melts it produces huge areas of mud and thick brown rivers of sludge which gradually move to the lowest point it can reach, then more melts and shifts it a bit further, until it is either washed over by a river or hits the sea and is carried away to become the sea bottom in the ever more shallow coastal waters. Sea levels will rise, and the tides running in the shallower coastal waters will be more powerful, increasing erosion. Unthinkable amounts of formerly solid ground will move inexorably into the sea. As this happens huge amounts of vegetation and animals lying dead but formerly preserved by the cold of the deep permafrost will decompose, releasing large amounts of greenhouse gasses as the air gets to them. Oh - anywhere you find lots of gold and valuable items was not gently submerged by the water, something happened suddenly so people had no time to take what they could and move away - earthquakes are a good starting point when looking for the culprit in such cases. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Sea level rising- for the last 1300 year From: Joe Offer Date: 03 May 13 - 06:03 PM From what I've read, it appears to me that Heracleion was more Greek than Egyptian. Of course, the same could be said of Alexandria. I would suppose that Heracleion is named after Hercules. I wonder why it isn't spelled Heraklion, like the main city of Crete. The letter "c" wasn't very common in ancient languages. -Joe- |
