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BS: Israel spurns international law
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Subject: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Stringsinger Date: 14 Apr 13 - 04:00 PM Israeli child abuse Rocks are no match for sophisticated weaponry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: bobad Date: 14 Apr 13 - 04:31 PM The military confirmed the arrest and said his detention was extended until Sunday. It says there has been a spike in rock-throwing attacks on drivers. -AP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Stringsinger Date: 14 Apr 13 - 05:05 PM The Israeli military is hardly a source to be trusted for veracity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: bobad Date: 14 Apr 13 - 05:11 PM "The Israeli military is hardly a source to be trusted for veracity." They're no Shahab Ahmad, undergraduate political science student in Pakistan, that's for sure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Apr 13 - 05:19 PM Large rocks are thrown through the screens of fast moving cars in the hope of killing or at least injuring the Jewish people inside. It is a serious problem in parts of Israel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Jack the Sailor Date: 14 Apr 13 - 05:38 PM What a travesty! According to the DCI-Palestine, 6,700 Palestinian children were arrested by Israeli forces between 2000 and 2009. In 2009 the total number of children held in detention was 423. By 2010 this number had dropped to 280. Other than the large number of children held, the UN, various humanitarian groups, and numerous NGOs have expressed a great deal of concern regarding the way in which these arrests are made and the way the detainees are handled. According to a UNICEF report released this year, arrests are almost always made during the night, between midnight and 5 a.m. Children are blindfolded, their hands are tied with plastic ties and they are subjected to verbal and physical abuse in front of their families while being transported to a detention facility and while being interrogated. UNICEF argues that this treatment is inconsistent with Israel's international obligations under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. It has demanded that Israel soldiers make arrests only during daylight hours, take greater care during strip searches and allow detainees access to their parents, a lawyer, medical care, proper food, and sanitary necessities. On the other hand, stone-throwing incidents by Israeli settlers on Palestinian civilians in the West Bank are seldom reported and almost always go unpunished. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: bobad Date: 14 Apr 13 - 06:23 PM "On the other hand, stone-throwing incidents by Israeli settlers on Palestinian civilians in the West Bank are seldom reported and almost always go unpunished." So says Shahab Ahmad, undergraduate political science student in Pakistan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Jack the Sailor Date: 15 Apr 13 - 02:01 AM http://www.councilforthenationalinterest.org/israelpalestineconflict/missingheadlines/item/1661-commander-undercover-israeli-soldiers-threw-stones-during-demos |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Apr 13 - 03:10 AM Stone throwing is what tends to happen at demonstrations. Throwing rocks into fast moving cars is attempted murder, and people have died. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Apr 13 - 03:45 AM We now wait with bated breath for a sturdy defence of child-abuse Jim Carroll ISRAEL CRITICISED FOR HARSH TREATMENT OF PALESTINIAN CHILDREN By Elizabeth Yousefi UNITED NATIONS, Apr 2 2013 (IPS) - In most countries, children are treated more gently by law enforcement than adults, with the right to have a parent present during questioning, for example. The situation is different in the Occupied Territories. "The common experience of many children is being aggressively awakened in the middle of the night by many armed soldiers and being forcibly brought to an interrogation centre, tied and blindfolded, sleep deprived and in a state of extreme fear," according to a recent UNICEF report on the Israeli detention of Palestinian children. Israeli law enforcement officials have arrested approximately 700 Palestinian boys every year for the past 10 years, demonstrating patterns of ill-treatment that UNICEF calls "widespread, systematic and institutionalised". The majority of these boys are accused of the same crime – throwing stones at Israeli soldiers or their vehicles. For the past several years, human rights organisations, U.N. experts, and both Palestinian and Israeli lawyers have made numerous attempts to bring attention to this issue as a clear violation of international human rights law. In March, UNICEF released a report entitled "Children in Israeli Military Detention", which outlines Israel's violations from arrest to detention to interrogation to trial. It makes specific reference to the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC), the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the Geneva Convention regarding the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, all of which Israel has ratified. In an interview with IPS, Permanent Observer of Palestine Ambassador Riyad Mansour praised UNICEF's work in "defending the rights of children, regardless of where they are", and said he hopes, in the case of Palestinian children, that as more people become aware of the situation, more powerful voices will demand action from Israel. International law demands that "all countries who are party to these conventions hold Israel responsible for violating any of the provisions," said Mansour. According to the CRC, arrest and detention of children, and their overall exposure to criminal proceedings, should always be the measure of last resort and should be minimised as much as possible. If arrest is deemed necessary, the child under arrest and their parents or guardians must be informed immediately of the reasons; the child should only be physically restrained if they become a physical threat to themselves or others. During interrogation, the child has a right to legal representation, the presence of a family member, and the right to refrain from self-incrimination. Interrogators are forbidden from obtaining statements through any form of physical compulsion or verbal intimidation; illegally obtained statements are invalid in court proceedings. Finally, children must be brought before a judge within 24 hours. Israeli military detention of Palestinian children deviates quite radically from this model. SITUATION IN ISRAEL According to the UNICEF report, soldiers often apprehend children from their homes late at night in a violent manner, damaging property, offering no explanation as to what the charges are or where the child is being taken, and making threats of physical violence and further consequences should the family protest. Children generally find themselves in the interrogation room within a day of arrest. Of the cases examined by UNICEF, no child was accompanied by the requisite lawyer and family member; most did not see a lawyer until the day of their trial. As of this month, the law will require that children under 14 be brought before a judge within 24 hours (reduced from four days), but those under 18 can still be held for 48 hours; furthermore, the judge may delay trial for 30 days at a time, up to 188 days. Almost all children confess to their alleged crimes, which is no surprise considering the interrogation techniques reportedly employed by Israeli officials – harsh restraint, physical abuse, verbal intimidation, solitary confinement, and threats of worse abuse and even death against both the child and their family members. Overwhelmingly, confessional documents – often in Hebrew – are the primary evidence for convictions. Children and their lawyers tend not to object to forced confessions for fear of provoking harsher punishments. On average, sentences range from two weeks to 10 months. Technically, children aged 14 and older can receive the maximum sentences for crimes – 10 years for throwing an object at a person and 20 for throwing it at moving vehicle. ENFORCING MILITARY LAW According to Catherine Weibel, UNICEF's chief of communication in the occupied Palestinian territories, Israeli officials who worked with UNICEF on the report "generally acknowledged that there were problems, but tended to minimise their scope." In a correspondence with IPS, Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs Spokesperson Yigal Palmor identified what Israel believes to be major sources of the conflict. While no internationally recognised state sovereignty exists in the territories, Israel, as an occupying power, can only enforce military law. "Obviously, military law does not provide the same rights and safeguards as civil law," said Palmor, "for adults and minors alike." The "main reason", Palmor says, is that potentially threatening Palestinian activist groups "use minors to stir violence and confront security forces, to make propaganda gains". MOVING FORWARD UNICEF's report includes a series of recommendations, which it intends to implement with Israel's cooperation. According to Palmor, "The recommendations are the fruit of our joint work and we will work with UNICEF to implement those recommendations." Ambassador Mansour has his doubts. "We don't believe that the Israeli occupying authority is putting any serious effort to stop these blatant violations of international human rights law," he told IPS, however, he believes that reports like UNICEF's "play a role in maximising pressure on the violators of the law" ISRAEL'S JUVENILE MILITARY COURT In 2009, Israel's establishment of the juvenile military court - an institution which exists nowhere else in the world - was a response to widespread international criticism regarding its prosecution of Palestinian children in adult military courts. In reality, there are still many loopholes that essentially allow children to be tried under adult conditions, as UNICEF's report demonstrates. International law aside, Israel's own laws prohibit ill-treatment of detained children. A 1999 Supreme Court decision - also binding on military courts - ruled that interrogations must, without exception, be free of torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. Though Israel has made some positive developments in its treatment of Palestinians and children in particular, critics say actual implementation and effectiveness remains questionable. In March 2010, after an NGO - the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel - submitted a petition against the use of hand ties on prisoners to the Supreme Court, Israeli Defense Forces reportedly introduced new procedures that would prevent their causing pain and injury; state lawyers and the military's legal defence confirmed that these actions were being taken and the petition was dismissed. While previously only youth below age 16 were considered children, Israel's Military Order 1676, issued in September 2011, recognised all youth under 18 as minors; 16 and 17 year-olds are still sentenced as adults. Another stipulation of Order 1676 requires that police inform arrested children of their right to legal representation and notify parents/guardians of their arrest; it does not, however, specify how long after arrest detainees must have access to a lawyer. This military order does not apply to army officials, who are mostly the ones arresting Palestinian children. Military Order 1676 and many other criminal procedure laws have not been translated or made accessible in Arabic. http://www.ipsnews.net/2013/04/israel-criticised-for-harsh-treatment-of-palestinian-children/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:07 AM It is only a few weeks since we discussed this. Now you are pasting the same old shit all over again. Why? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:14 AM It was the seventh of last month. In reply I posted, Child prisoners. Figures from the end of January showed that of the 233 of the "children" currently held in custody, 202 of them were over the age of 16, according to the AFP news agency. The report, entitled, "Children in Israeli Military Detention," claimed, "Ill treatment of Palestinian children in the Israeli military detention system appears to be widespread, systematic and institutionalized." In response, Israel's Foreign Ministry said it had provided UNICEF with material used in the report and pledged to work towards implementation of its conclusions. "Israel will study the conclusions and will work to implement them through ongoing cooperation with UNICEF, whose work we value and respect," a Foreign Ministry statement said. The majority of PA Arab teens incarcerated and referred to in the report were apparently arrested for hurling rocks at Israeli motorists – an act intended to kill, and which has sometimes succeeded. Last December, a 17-year-old rock-throwing Arab nearly killed a baby when the huge rock he hurled at an Israeli car smashed the window a few inches from the infant. Mainstream media ignored the attack. "We were saved by a miracle," "Roie," a resident of Samaria, told Arutz Sheva. "I do not even want to think what would have happened if the rock had hit the baby." A year earlier, rock-throwing road terrorists succeeded in murdering Kiryat Arba resident Asher Palmer and his toddler son, Yonaton, when they threw a rock at Palmer's car from a passing vehicle on Highway 60 in Judea. The murder, which to police at first appeared to be a routine traffic accident, later was proved through evidence to be a terrorist attack. In 2011 a 17-year-old PA youth, Hakim Awad, was arrested for the murder of five members of one family, including a 3-month-old baby girl. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:27 AM These kids were not trying to kill anyone. Just joining in a peaceful protest. Jim not interested because it is Israel's neighbour Egypt, not Israel. Since December 2011, police and army members have arrested and detained over 300 children who participated in protests. Children arrested at protests at the Ministry of Interior in February 2012, and in front of the American embassy in September reported beatings that in some cases amounted to torture. Despite the high numbers of juvenile detainees, including children living and working on the street, authorities consistently detained children with adults in police stations and brought them before regular prosecutors, instead of referring them to the juvenile justice system as required by law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:36 AM Let the game of protecting child abusers begin Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: MGM·Lion Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:44 AM Ho-hum! Israel in the thread title and ain't it just usual·suspects·time. Don't think I'll even bother to join further in this one. Tara מיכאל |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: MGM·Lion Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:48 AM ... except to say, yet again, ROLL UP ROLL UP ROLL UP It's the ever-popular, never to be missed KEITH & CARROLL SHOW |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:52 AM Me too neither, for the opposite reason. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:58 AM Me too - just like to see Keith drag his knuckles along the floor Enjoy Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:02 AM The doli incapax rule is IMHO absurd and has led in countries where it is observed to a plethora of mini-gangsters who know the law cannot touch them (and neither can their parents nor responsible adults). This is not that case. The reported treatment - arrest without charge, sleep deprivation, torture, lack of a fair trial - is unpardonable. If it be true that Israel obstructs investigations of stonethrowing attacks on Palestinians that should shame anyone with a conscience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Stringsinger Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:19 AM The message also contains the information that Israeli Settlers threw stones and harassed Palestinian children. They didn't want to kill them? What nonsense. Israeli government knows what the Settlers are doing but turns a blind eye to these misdeeds. It's all part of the suppression of the Palestinian people. Jim's thorough example of Israeli child abuse is not "shit" but informative with sources. it is revealing and needs to be stated again and again and not trivialized by making jokes about atrocities such as "the Keith and Jim Show". Whereas the defense of brutality toward any child, Palestinian or otherwise is reprehensible when attributed to State actions or otherwise. Israeli children are not exposed to abuse by Palestinians. There are Christians who insist on abusing children and one way they do it is to defend Israeli atrocities through a biblical injunction that Israel can do no wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Jack the Sailor Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:33 AM "not trivialized by making jokes about atrocities such as "the Keith and Jim Show"" Come on Strings, be fair. The joke was clearly about the argument not the atrocities. " Whereas the defense of brutality toward any child," Isn't the brutality itself the real issue? The defense of it on a forum of middle aged westerners is not much compared to busting into the home of a 14 year old boy and kidnapping him in front of his family. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:34 AM "The military said Mohammad hurled rocks at Israeli vehicles that were speeding down a nearby highway and at military jeeps on several occasions. The military said there has been a spike in rock-throwing attacks on drivers, including an incident in early April, when rocks thrown at a civilian car next to a Jewish settlement injured seven, including an infant who was critically wounded." Washington Post. Throwing stones is what naughty boys and demonstrators do. Heaving a rock into a speeding car is attempting to murder people. Jim's paste job was about the same unicef report as the paste job he posted 4 weeks ago. Nothing new in it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Apr 13 - 11:31 AM ISRAELI SOLDIERS ABUSE PALESTINIAN KIDS: REPORT Monday, August 27, 2012 3:10 Israeli veterans have spoken out, describing a degrading culture of abuse and harassment of Palestinian children in the West Bank and Gaza. A report containing 30 veterans' testimonies details numerous cases of violence committed by Israeli soldiers. The report was released to world media on Saturday by Breaking the Silence, an organization made up of Israeli army veterans formed in 2004. They compiled more than 850 accounts from current and former Israeli soldiers describing abuses they committed or witnessed. The investigation seeks to serve as "a witness to the ongoing decline of the military system into increasing immorality." "The words of the soldiers included here constitute an urgent call to Israeli society and its leaders: We must foster a serious discourse regarding the price of military rule of the Occupied Territories," said the report. A number of reports pertain to the detention and abuse of minors who pelt Israeli soldiers with stones and the imposition of Israeli control in occupied areas. A first sergeant in an armored corps unit described his job as "population control," in a testimony entitled "What is that job, really?" His unit would enter Palestinian villages on a daily basis to "make their presence felt" and to show the local residents that the area did not belong to them. "A patrol goes in, or two patrols, two Hummers secured by a jeep, and raise hell inside the villages. A whole company may be sent in on foot in two lines like a military parade in the streets, provoking riots, provoking children," said the first sergeant. He said that his commander's aim was to "grind the population down" so that they would not even think of throwing stones at their occupiers. 'Whoever is slow to run gets beaten up' One testimony describes in detail a camouflaged ambush on Palestinian children in Qalandiya in the West Bank following a riot. The platoon corned the children and beat them with wooden clubs as they tried to escape. "People were made to fall to the ground, and then the soldiers with the clubs would go over to them and beat them. A slow runner was beaten, that was the rule," said a first sergeant in the Engineering Corps. According to the sergeant such ambushes were carried out about four or five times sometimes on the same children. The aim of the exercise, the sergeant said, was to discourage the children from throwing stones at the Israeli soldiers, but he did not believe it had any effect. The report documents numerous cases of children under the age of 16 being taken into custody, blindfolded and deprived of food and water. A first sergeant from a Paratroopers Brigade who regularly took children of 12-14 years of age into custody for attempting to cross the border into Israel said they were taught to treat the children not as small children, but as assisting terrorists. "The intelligence officer saw two soldiers beating one of the detainees. I think they were about 16 years old, if I remember correctly," he said. 'We'd lost all sense of mercy' Another veteran described how his troop would trash shops and buildings because they were bored, purposely triggering riots. He related an incident where Israeli soldiers waiting for civilians outside a mosque began to fire rubber rounds in order to spark a riot. He said that if Arab children threw stones at them they would use them as human shields. "You know how badly beaten they get? You catch him, push the gun against his body, he can't make a move, he's totally petrified. He only goes: "No, no, army." You can tell he's petrified." Report slanders IDF In response to the report the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) said that Breaking the Silence had revealed its true intentions "to generate negative publicity regarding the IDF and its soldiers, rather than facilitating a proper investigation." "As a matter of policy, the organization chooses not to provide the IDF and other relevant bodies with the critical material necessary for investigation. By compiling testimonies over long periods of time and refusing to provide additional detail, [Breaking the Silence] proves its true intentions – rather than facilitating proper investigation, the organization seeks to generate negative publicity regarding the IDF and its soldiers." the IDF told The Weekend Australian. Breaking Silence member Yehuda Shaul hit back at the IDF, saying "over 70 of our testifiers have come out publicly with their names and identities revealed, and I'm one of them." "If the IDF was interested in investigating our claims, we probably would have already been summoned to interrogations," concluded Shaul. http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2012/08/israeli-soldiers-abuse-palestinian-kids-report-2457828.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Jack the Sailor Date: 15 Apr 13 - 11:31 AM Keith, help me with your logic. Are you saying that "The military" had enough evidence to arrest the boy and charge him with a specific crime. Are you saying that his legal and moral rights are being respected? Because it looks like he was kidnapped in the dead of the night and is being tortured so that he will confess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:16 PM No Jack. I am saying that he is accused of a serious crime that "throwing stones" does not cover. Israel does not use torture on prisoners. I am yet to be convinced that the accusations in this case are true. Palestinians sometimes tell lies about the security forces. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Jack the Sailor Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:19 PM Do you believe that the west bank is under military occupation? Do you believe it is part of Israel? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:32 PM Well, that is most annoying, the post eater just ate a long post in which I asked Keith precisely which of the alleged Israeli actions he approved of. I may have to try to reconstruct it. Bet let us start simply Keith. Do you approve of sleep deprivation as a means of coercing confessions? Do you approve of inflicting pain for a like means? Do you approve of depriving the accused of a realistic prospect of obtaining a legal defence? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Stringsinger Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:49 PM The proponents of Israel deny that there is anything wrong with what their country is doing. They are not allowing criticism in any form to surface and use the term "anti-Semitism" to shut it down. There are fundamentalist Christians who claim by biblical injunction that Israel should triumph as a State so that when their "second coming" materializes, the Jews will have to convert or go to hell. This kind of denial is prevalent in the US today and is reinforced by AIPAC. The Israeli government is using this fanaticism to bolster their prestige, rather cynically because Jews don't believe in a Jesus as messiah. Some don't believe in his relevance or him at all. Yet they encourage these Christians to make pilgrimages to Israel which in turn helps the Israeli economy (at least that's the rationale). Israel is given a pass by the U.S. for their atrocities by weak language in criticizing these atrocities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Apr 13 - 01:29 PM Jack, yes to both. Richard, no to all three (and I am yet to be convinced it has happened here.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Apr 13 - 03:05 PM Just can't get enough of you saying that it's ok to torture CHILD SUSPECTS Jim Carroll Published on Thursday, March 14, 2013 by Common Dreams UNICEF Criticizes Israel's Treatment of Palestinian Children by César Chelala A new UNICEF report, "Children in Israeli Military Detention," is sharply critical of Israel's treatment of detained Palestinian children. According to UNICEF, 700 Palestinian children aged 12-17, most of them boys, are arrested and harshly interrogated by the Israeli military, police and security agents every year in the occupied West In some cases, stated UNICEF, it had identified practices that "amount to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment according to the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) and the Convention against Torture (CAT). The UNICEF report confirms what many human rights activists (including Israeli individuals and organizations) have been denouncing for years. The UNICEF report is the result of several years of information gathering by the UN agency related to grave violations committed against Palestinian children in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory, including the arrest and detention of children. The information gathered is regularly reported to the United Nations Security Council Working Group on Children and Armed Conflict. Mounting allegations of ill-treatment of Palestinian children held in the Israeli military detention system prompted this review. According to Article 37 of the Convention of the Rights of the Child, State Parties shall ensure that "No child shall be subjected to torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment,"…and "Every child deprived of his or her liberty shall have the right to prompt access to legal and other appropriate assistance, as well as the right to challenge the legality of the deprivation of his or her liberty before a court or other competent, independent and impartial authority, and to a prompt decision on any such action." These provisions have been repeatedly violated by the Israeli authorities. As UNICEF states, "In addition to Israel's obligations under international law, the guiding principles relating to the prohibition against torture in Israel are to be found in a 1999 decision of the Supreme Court, which is also legally binding on the Israeli military courts. The Court concluded that a reasonable interrogation is necessarily one free of torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, and that this prohibition is absolute." What makes the conclusions of this report particularly relevant is that Yigal Palmor, Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman, stated that officials from the ministry and the Israeli military had cooperated with UNICEF in the work carried out for this report, and that the aim of the Israeli government was to improve the treatment of Palestinian minors in custody. Ill-treatment of Palestinian minors begins with the arrest itself, which is carried out usually in the middle of the night by heavily armed soldiers, and continues through prosecution and sentencing. Most minors are arrested for throwing stones; however, they suffer physical violence and threats, many are coerced into confessing for acts they didn't commit and, in addition, many times they don't have access to a lawyer or family during questioning. UNICEF's findings are based on more than 400 documented cases gathered since 2009, as well as on legal papers, governmental and non-governmental reports, and interviews with Palestinian children and their families and with Israeli and Palestinian officials and lawyers. Israeli government abuses against Palestinian children are not limited to the West Bank. In the past, UNICEF has also reported that one baby in three risks death because of medical shortages in Gaza. Israel's government also prohibited the distribution of special food to about 20,000 Gazan children under age five resulting in anemia, stunted growth and general weakness as a result of malnutrition. On October 20, 2011, Richard Falk, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the human rights situation in the occupied Palestinian territories had urged the Israeli Government to adopt guidelines for the protection of Palestinian children in line with international humanitarian principles and human rights standards. In his report, Falk notes the case of a three-year old girl who was taken from her home at 3 a.m. and threatened at gun point: "She was told that she would be shot and her family home destroyed unless she revealed the whereabouts of her brother," said Mr. Falk, "and now, her mother explained, she can't sleep through the night and bedwets." Treatment of children and adolescents under detention contravenes Israel's democratic principles and contributes to the perpetuation of the Middle East conflict and the search for peace in the region. http://www.policymic.com/articles/34745/israeli-troops-arrest-14-year-old-u-s-citizen-without-warrant-beat-him-deny-lawyer/46004 http://www.policymic.com/articles/34745/israeli-troops-arrest-14-year-old-u-s-citizen-without-warrant-beat-him-deny-lawyer/46004 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Jack the Sailor Date: 15 Apr 13 - 03:09 PM Why aren't all the people on the West Bank treated equally? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:22 PM Just can't get enough of you saying that it's ok to torture CHILD SUSPECTS Jim Carroll We would all be shocked to the core if anyone said "it's ok to torture CHILD SUSPECTS" No-one on Mudcat to my certain knowledge ever has or ever would say such a thing. I put it to the moderators that something needs to be done about this fucking liar and his fucking lies. If there is a line on Mudcat, he has surely crossed it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Jack the Sailor Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:11 PM Do you think there is a rule against tall tales on a folk music site. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:23 PM I think if someone stated that you had actually said it is OK to torture children, you might object as I did. I thank you for acknowledging that he is just lying again. Do you really think it OK for him to keep doing that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Richard Bridge Date: 16 Apr 13 - 01:01 AM Keith, you appear to be in logical difficulty. "Ill-treatment of Palestinian minors begins with the arrest itself, which is carried out usually in the middle of the night by heavily armed soldiers, and continues through prosecution and sentencing. Most minors are arrested for throwing stones; however, they suffer physical violence and threats, many are coerced into confessing for acts they didn't commit and, in addition, many times they don't have access to a lawyer or family during questioning. UNICEF's findings are based on more than 400 documented cases gathered since 2009, as well as on legal papers, governmental and non-governmental reports, and interviews with Palestinian children and their families and with Israeli and Palestinian officials and lawyers." You support those Israeli abuses - documented out of 400 cases - yet also say you oppose: - sleep deprivation as a means of coercing confessions; inflicting pain for a like means; and depriving the accused of a realistic prospect of obtaining a legal defence. Your assertions contradict each other. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Apr 13 - 01:10 AM You support those Israeli abuses No I do not. Why do you say that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Apr 13 - 02:56 AM This is what UNICEF actually said. It only says "their appears to be a pattern" not there is one. It only refers to "ill-treatment" not torture. "Based on an analysis of the legal framework and testimonies from children on the violations of their rights in detention, the paper says there appears to be a pattern of ill-treatment during the arrest, transfer and interrogation of child detainees. It includes a series of recommendations to improve protection for children in conformity with international standards such as the prohibition of blindfolding and solitary confinement of children. The paper also recommends that except in extreme circumstances, children should not be arrested at night and a lawyer or family member should be present during interrogation of child suspects. The paper also reinforces findings made by the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the occupied Palestinian territory and the UN Special Committee on Israeli practices in the Occupied Territory in 2012. UNICEF welcomes some improvement in the treatment of Palestinian children in the Israeli military system over the past years, including raising the age when Palestinian children reach adulthood from 16 to 18 years. UNICEF will continue its engagement with Israeli military authorities to improve the safeguards that promote the rights and well-being of Palestinian children in military custody." http://www.unicef.org/media/media_68093.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Apr 13 - 04:24 AM "Why do you say that?" because you have persistently downgraded their importance and have denied every single crime that Israel has committed and has been found to have committed - your fanaticism in doing so has made you a running joke, which is as it should be. The Unicef statement, which is couched in the responsible language of an established body is backed up by far more serious examples, including these children (that is what they are) being threatened with sexual abuse. Your defence that these are "accused criminals", which apparently makes their treatment excusable, sums up your sick attitude. Every civilised nation is duty bound to regard suspects as innocent until proved guilty and even then, to treat them in an acceptable manner. Israel does not do that, making them the thuggish regime that they are - leaving you....where exactly? Your using Egypt as an excuse is as crass as it comes - the Egyptian government is an undemocratic extremist regime at war with its own people - a couple of threads ago you were using Egypt as your star witness in your 'tunnel flooding' arguments in preference to the case being put by the opposition to that undemocratic thuggery You have backed the proven war crimes of the thuggish Israeli regime throught all these discussions using the actions, support and examples of other thuggish regimes - "Turkey approves of Israel" for Christ's sake - you are a joke. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Apr 13 - 04:33 AM Your defence that these are "accused criminals" Did I really use those words in quotes? No. YOU LIE AGAIN. denied every single crime that Israel has committed No. I just ask for evidence and give Israel's side of the story. That is not "fanaticism" Jim. That is reason. It is fanatical to believe everything said against Israel even though you have evidence of endemic lying, and to single out Israel for constant attack while quietly ignoring the far worse offenders all around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Apr 13 - 04:36 AM you were using Egypt as your star witness in your 'tunnel flooding' arguments in preference to the case being put by the opposition to that undemocratic thuggery Well yes, because it was Egypt did the flooding. "undemocratic thuggery"? As opposed to Hamas' undemocratic thuggery? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Apr 13 - 04:56 AM using the actions, support and examples of other thuggish regimes - "Turkey approves of Israel" for Christ's sake - you are a joke. Ireland approves of Israel. Is that a joke? Is that a "thuggish regime?" Canada? Australia? Finland, Sweden, Denmark, The EU, ..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Apr 13 - 05:46 AM I have no intention in being in any way involved in allowing you to continue your support of persecution and torture of children; I really thought you had sunk as low as you could sink - just goes to show eh? Torture - sleep and light deprivation of adults and the prolonged binding of limbs are recognised as forms of torture - (it's what much of Abu Graib was about). Both have been used extensively against hundreds of Palestinian children and only diminished slightly when it was found to be a common practice of Israeli forces. Against 12 - 13- 14 year-old children it is an extreme form I await with some curiosity to see how you handle today's claim by the Orthodox Greek Archbishop of the Jerusalem of persecution and prejudice against Christians (described by Israeli activists as Apartheid) which has led to hardship and deprivation in the Christian community and a significant drop in their numbers. Keep taking the medication; pip-pip. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Apr 13 - 06:05 AM continue your support of persecution and torture of children Continue? I do not and never have. You lie. What I really say gives you no ammunition for your personal attacks, so you have to lie. Liar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Apr 13 - 07:08 AM "I do not and never have." Arguing this with you is not unlike arguing the finer points of pedophilia with a pedophile Get help Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Apr 13 - 07:52 AM You don't argue with me. You make up shit that I never have said and never would say, and use it in baseless personal attacks on me. The is not arguing Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Richard Bridge Date: 16 Apr 13 - 07:53 AM "support" - well Keith, you purport to find them defensible or justifiable - your line was that those subjected to them were not children. But they are vile tactics against anyone whether children by your definition, young adults or complete adults. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:00 AM you purport to find them defensible or justifiable No. Why do you say that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:49 AM The children are children - the behaviour meted out to them is internationally recognised as torture, they are innocent until they are proven guilty and even then there are strict rules governing how prisoners are treated, those who disregard this are human right abusers and torturers of children and those who defend this behaviour by denying (without proof) or attempt to lessen the facts and their effects on the victims are guilty of defending atrocities - doesn't come any simpler than that - nothing added there. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:31 AM So, who defends it Jim? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:34 AM Even the Israeli government does not defend it. Israel's Foreign Ministry said it had provided UNICEF with material used in the report and pledged to work towards implementation of its conclusions. "Israel will study the conclusions and will work to implement them through ongoing cooperation with UNICEF, whose work we value and respect," a Foreign Ministry statement said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:28 AM ""Israel will study the conclusions and will work to implement them through ongoing cooperation with UNICEF, whose work we value and respect," a Foreign Ministry statement said."" And of course Keith always believes every word that comes from Israel, whether supported by evidence, or not. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:38 AM UNICEF acknowledged that Israel was working with them. They said, "UNICEF welcomes some improvement in the treatment of Palestinian children in the Israeli military system over the past years, including raising the age when Palestinian children reach adulthood from 16 to 18 years. UNICEF will continue its engagement with Israeli military authorities to improve the safeguards that promote the rights and well-being of Palestinian children in military custody." They would quickly expose any failure by the Israelis. What is your problem with that Don? It is like an irrational hatred you have. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:43 AM "So, who defends it Jim?" You do by attempting to suggest that A. the SUSPECTS WERE CRIMINALS, that it is OK to mistreat criminals - even children and that you are "yet to be convinced that the accusations in this case are true" despite these accusations have been confirmed by every independent report - that is the stuff atrocity denials are made of and it and it runs through every sing one of your efforts to defend Israeli atrocities and war crimes - that they are all "lies", even to the extent of making UN resolutions Muslim plot. Some more to be dismissed or excused. Jim Carroll "Israel using strong arm tactics against young Palestinian stone-throwers Israel using strong arm tactics against young Palestinian stone-throwers By Nir Hasson, Haaretz Correspondent Tags: Israel Border Police Several children in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Silwan were arrested and taken from their homes in handcuffs in the middle of the night over the past few months, as part of a police crackdown on suspected stone-throwers, several teenage residents told B'Tselem and Haaretz. Haaretz and B'Tselem, the Israel Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, collected testimonies from several teens that suggest the police are treating them violently and violating their rights. "They told me to get down on my knees and slapped and kicked me, one from behind and one from the front," a 15-year-old told B'Tselem. Advertisement A large Border Police force has been raiding Palestinian homes at night, targeting mostly children aged 12 to 15. Most of the children and teenagers living near near the two controversial residential buildings inhabited by Jewish settlers in Silwan - Beit Yonatan and Beit Hadvash - have been arrested at least once. The police and Border Police activity follows complaints by the Jewish residents of the two buildings and by the guards hired by the Housing Ministry to protect them. They say there has been an increase in children throwing stones at their houses and cars. "The interrogator kept asking me the same question for an hour and every time I denied it, he swore. He swore at my mother and sister. He slapped me and wouldn't let me go to the toilet or have a drink of water," a 14-year-old told B'Tselem. Another child said he was seated facing the wall and was beaten every time he turned his head. Parents allegedly mistreated Parents who try to argue or block their children's arrest are treated harshly or attacked, said Jaballah Rajabi, many of whose family members have been arrested. "I tried to talk to them and they hit me, sprayed me with gas. Fifty of them come for every child. This isn't police, it's a mafia," he said. "These incidents constitute a most severe breach of minors' human rights," attorney Yael Stein of B'Tselem wrote to Jerusalem District Commander Aharon Franco. "A military-like crackdown in the middle of the night to interrogate 12- to 14-year-old children on suspicions of throwing stones runs contrary to all reason, and cannot be justified. It's hard to imagine the security forces taking such measures against Jewish minors," she wrote, accusing police of breaking the law governing treatment of youth. The Jerusalem Police denied using violent measures and said the arrests and interrogations were carried out lawfully. "Following increasing incidents of stone-throwing at cars, Border Police and Jewish houses in the Silwan area, causing damage to people and property, Arab minors suspected of throwing stones were arrested," a police spokesman said. "Some of the minors had their remands extended by the court, and others were released on certain conditions. All the suspects against whom we have evidence will be brought to trial," he said. Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=15f_1268511210#ogk6qKxXa7fSUUe7.99 " |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:47 AM ""They would quickly expose any failure by the Israelis. What is your problem with that Don? It is like an irrational hatred you have."" Not irrational at all. Just appalled that you have the gall to post about what is being improved, having never acknowledged that anything is being, or has been done, which was wrong in the first place. You repeatedly denied that the reports were true, taking your stock-in-trade line that critics of Israel are liars, then post about how they are working to improve. Improve what? You haven't recognised any need for improvement. You are a fool. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Apr 13 - 11:45 AM by attempting to suggest that A. the SUSPECTS WERE CRIMINALS, I never have. that it is OK to mistreat criminals I never have. - even children. Not even adults. and that you are "yet to be convinced that the accusations in this case are true" despite these accusations have been confirmed by every independent report There have been no independent reports on this case. You made that up Jim. So far Israel has only said that it has had no complaint about this case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Apr 13 - 11:52 AM You repeatedly denied that the reports were true, You made that up Don. I never did. Just appalled that you have the gall to post about what is being improved, having never acknowledged that anything is being, or has been done, which was wrong in the first place. Israel accepted the report at once (they assisted UNICEF in the making of it), and so did I. Perhaps you forget? Improve what? You haven't recognised any need for improvement. Israel has recognised the need. I have no reason to disagree with them . Have you Don? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel spurns international law From: Stringsinger Date: 16 Apr 13 - 05:29 PM I don't believe that UNICEF would accept the mistreatment of Palestinian children. I hope they are working with Israel to correct this injustice but Israeli military behavior doesn't indicate this in the least. Abuse still continues and as a rationale, Israeli leaders believe that children are "fair game" as terrorists when in fact, Israeli terror is commonplace in West Bank and Gaza. Israeli leaders are foolhardy in thinking they are going to stop Palestinian children from throwing rocks by routinely obliterating Palestinian homes, jailing Palestinians,and more Cast Leads and Pillars of Clouds. It's insanity but it reflects a penchant for a kind of authoritarianism and Old Testament wrath. This takes place because of the influential rabbis who have turned Israel into a theocracy. Old Testament punishment is prescriptive in dealing with children. This is still being supported by Christian Zionazis. |
