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BS: Interesting mystery I got here...
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BS: Interesting mystery I got here... |
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Subject: BS: Interesting mystery I got here... From: Bobert Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:50 PM So, let me see if I can tell the story with the fewest words... The P-Vine's biological father was killed training WW II pilots just 5 weeks before she was born and I have his pilots log... Now when me and Jim Clark used to hot wire my dad's friend, Joe Young's Piper Cub, we didn't exactly keep no log... LOL... No matter... What I have is a complete log of his entire 5 year flying career... Seems he flew a lot from '38 to '41, then didn't fly in '42, but bought a Stearman 220 hp Continental in March of '43 and began training pilots for WW II... Took an average of 3-4 weeks to get most of them up and ready to go to war... He had dozens he worked with and every one is in the log with comments about their performance with various aviational things... So the way I have figured it out comes down to Paul (last name), Nott, Piazza or Newcomb who were in the plane, perhaps flying front seat (the Stearman was a bi-plane) when the P-Vine's father was killed... On October 16th all four went up and got "S" for satisfactory for "Review & Acrobatics"... On October 18t Newcome was went up twice with one "S" and one "U" (unsatisfactory)... The following day when the P-Vine's father was killed Paul, Piazza nd Nott went up... Paul got a "U" and Nott and Piazza got "S"s... The next time was the last... The pane was crashed by the student and killed the P-Vine's father... I donno??? I'm thinking Newcomb??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Interesting mystery I got here... From: gnu Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:08 PM Look up their obit somehow? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Interesting mystery I got here... From: frogprince Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:11 PM So. off the top... All you can say from what you have so far is that Newcomb is a plausible answer. I'm not seeing anything remotely like a way to say for sure. Extant airport records? Local newspaper archives? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Interesting mystery I got here... From: Bobert Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:34 PM The student lived... The P-Vine's father didn't.. I donno??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Interesting mystery I got here... From: JohnInKansas Date: 13 Apr 13 - 10:59 PM Information in his log isn't going to tell you anything much about what happened during his last flight or about his cause of death (unless he was writing really fast all the way down???). Without documentation it's not a certainty that a crash was the cause of his death. Maybe he had a heart attack in flight and the student pilot wasn't quite ready for landing under pressure when he had to take over? (Specious speculation just to point out that you haven't really provided much info.) It would appear that you need to look for other sources, most likely newspaper reports of the crash and/or obituaries for him and for the others possibly involved. If he was "officially" training pilots for war duty, military records or the several "military news" publications (official or not) possibly would have reports. Newspapers in the immediate area of the crash may have "morgues" with archived obituaries and at least the more notable news reports from the era, but many do charge you to look things up in them. Some libraries may have "subscriptions" that would let you dig in some of them without the fees. The problem here sometimes is figuring out which papers that were around ca. 1942 are still around now. News reports from where he was living at the time, from where he was raised before that, and from the immediate area of the crash should all be checked. People who do genealogical research quite often share reports on persons only remotely related, so an ancestor search for anyone related to someone who might be an ancestor of someone she, or one of the other pilot trainees, might be related to may have posted a news clipping online. This kind of research sort of requires one to be a bit "obsessive" about tracing the roots, but there's a lot to be found if you can do it (or find a relative of a relative who's done it for you). Government records quite probably should be able to produce a copy of a "death certificate" that might, or might not, give some additional detail, and a direct descendant quite probably could order a copy with a bit of paperwork and a small fee. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Interesting mystery I got here... From: Rapparee Date: 13 Apr 13 - 11:14 PM Contact the public library nearest the place where he died. The Reference Department is likely to have the local newspapers back to God-knows-when. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Interesting mystery I got here... From: JohnInKansas Date: 14 Apr 13 - 01:42 AM We've also found that many localities (Towns, counties, and some states) have produced "memory books" commemorating significant dates like centuries since foundings, sometimes half centuries, etc that often contain detailed stories about personal memories of persons of special significance (or notoriety). These can be difficult to find, but if a specific town is identified that has a library a local/regional "history book" might be located. The larger books covering general areas are more likely to be accessible at "county seat" libraries here. Many of the "history books" were produced by local newspapers, especially in the smaller towns, so a small-town paper might be able to steer you to some one's personal copy of a suitable one if there's nothing in the libraries, even if the paper that sponsored it has been supplanted by a new one. Some of these books have lots of stuff you'd think were never of any interest except to the one who wrote them, but can be quite detailed and personal - and may mention "co-conspirators" in some detail. Lots of places also have local/state "historical societies," often with web sites where you can find enough to guess what other information might be available through personal contact, or at least may give a contact you can ask who can do a search for you in their records. Quite a few places have "genealogical societies" and in a few places you may even find archives of things like what you need, collected by those nuts who go looking for monkeys in their family trees. A local group of this kind may have "local news" items not so easily available in the big gen orgs if you can find the right group. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Interesting mystery I got here... From: Mo the caller Date: 14 Apr 13 - 06:14 AM Did the student 'walk away' or was he in hospital? in which case the hospital records might help. But do you really want to know? What will you do when you have the name? Would you trace the person now approaching 90, or his descendants? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Interesting mystery I got here... From: Bobert Date: 14 Apr 13 - 07:23 AM No, John... We do know from reports of the P-Vine's mom... The plane did crash while the P-Vine's father was training someone... He usually was working with 4 future pilots at a time... That rules out heart attack... We also know from her mom that the student survived the crash... This was a long time ago and records, though they may be out there, might be impossible to find and the P-Vine's mother has passed away... I wish I had been in possession of the log when her mom was a live because her mom would have known more details... I don't know why reading thru his log that I am curious... But I am??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Interesting mystery I got here... From: Charmion Date: 14 Apr 13 - 07:37 AM The RAF and RCAF conducted exhaustive flight-safety investigations in cases such as the crash that killed P-Vine's papa, and copies of the final report of the Board of Inquiry would be included in the personnel files of all the individuals involved -- those killed, and those who walked away. USAAF record-keeping can't have been too terribly different; the American and British military flight-safety regimes were very similar. Have you applied to the relevant archive for a copy of the flying instructor's personnel records? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Interesting mystery I got here... From: Bobert Date: 14 Apr 13 - 07:51 AM Thanks, Charmion... That will given me a starting point... As for personal records, I believe this log is probably "it" as it is hand written by her father and has some information about every flight he ever piloted, even as a student pilot in '38... He wasn't in the military... I assume he was contracted and paid by the military to train these guys??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Interesting mystery I got here... From: Charmion Date: 15 Apr 13 - 06:45 AM Yes. Aircrew production was a huge issue throughout the Second World War, so great that Canada became a giant economy-sized flying training factory under the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan. In the first phase of the BCATP, private and community flying clubs across the country, with their facilities, infrastructure and civilian staff, were mobilized under government contracts to deliver initial flying training. (Service flying training was done by military instructors.) When the States entered the war, the BCATP had been under way for two years with great success, so the USAAF and the US Navy copied many of its methods. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Interesting mystery I got here... From: Charmion Date: 15 Apr 13 - 08:41 AM If I were researching the death of the P-Vine's father, I would attack it from the flight-safety angle, using the incident date and location as primary sorting criteria. First, I would find out which archive holds FAA flight-safety records from the relevant year. (In a BCATP case, the investigation would have been led by the Air Ministry or, in Canada, the Department of Transport.) Then I would find out which record group, fonds or whatever you call it down there contains the records of investigations related to military training accidents. The next step after that is to a finding aid, shelf list or other internal resource at the repository -- or to an archivist who knows the collection -- to identify materials from the date in question. All this poking about would be very labour intensive, and you would not find the names of the individuals involved until you lay your hands on the actual flight-safety investigation reports from the period in question and pick out the one(s) from the relevant location. Unless you are very fortunate indeed, most if not all work after Step 1 would have to be done in person at the repository. But if historical research were easy, any damn fool could do it, right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Interesting mystery I got here... From: Bobert Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:09 AM I know the date, the airport and his name... That should do it... B~ |
