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BS: Commit treason and get away with it.
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Subject: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: GUEST,999 Date: 23 Nov 12 - 10:06 AM Buy Chinese products. It will collapse the economy of your country, put your own workers on the unemployment line, send your money out of the country and it's all legal. Easy, huh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: pdq Date: 23 Nov 12 - 10:11 AM Treason usually requires a war, doesn't it? Are we at war with China? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Nov 12 - 10:11 AM Sigh... Treason eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Rapparee Date: 23 Nov 12 - 10:49 AM Treaon doth never prosper -- What's the reason? If it doth prosper None dare call it treason. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Henry Krinkle Date: 23 Nov 12 - 11:52 AM Listen to him. =(:-( )) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Henry Krinkle Date: 23 Nov 12 - 11:56 AM No war needed =(:-( )) Treason |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Henry Krinkle Date: 23 Nov 12 - 11:59 AM Beheading not outlawed til 1973. =(:-( o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: gnu Date: 23 Nov 12 - 12:07 PM War with China? No. They are kicking our ass without firing a shot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Nov 12 - 12:09 PM Until somebody bans capitalism I'll have to go on buying stuff as cheap as I can get it. I'm not boycotting Amazon, Israel, China or anybody else. I can't afford to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: redhorse Date: 23 Nov 12 - 12:16 PM Why do Americans have such a thing about "treason"? It's a word you virtually never hear over here in UK. This isn't meant as a criticism, just curious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Henry Krinkle Date: 23 Nov 12 - 12:57 PM Why do the Brits have such a thing about beheading? We never did it here much. Hanging. Frying. Gassing. Never beheading. =(:-( 0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Rapparee Date: 23 Nov 12 - 01:36 PM Well, Hank, the heads of those folks executed after the Pontiac Rebellion didn't get on the poles in Boston all by themselves. Drawing and quartering -- yup. Of course, stuff like that wasn't done deliberately after the Constitution was adopted. Black Jack Ketchum was supposed to be hanged. But my library is at home and I can't easily check on that stuff here. As for treason -- William Joyce was hanged for it on 3 January 1946. It's not talked about much in the US, either. Treason is still a crime in the UK. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Nov 12 - 02:14 PM "Why do Americans have such a thing about "treason"? It's a word you virtually never hear over here in UK." It comes from people who haven't read The Constitution thinking the no about what is meant by the words in it than those who wrote it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Nov 12 - 02:30 PM thinking the no about thinking they know more |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Jeri Date: 23 Nov 12 - 02:39 PM "Americans" ?! I think it was meant to indicate betrayal of one's country. We have so many jobs being outsourced to China and such a disparity in trade, I can understand. I try to buy local when I can, and I would have a problem with Chinese products if it weren't for the inequality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: gnu Date: 23 Nov 12 - 05:36 PM Ya know, I won't even buy the green beans from Italy. ITALY! Green damn beans from Italy? HERE in NB, Canada? WTF!!!??? Do they grow the SOBs on the boat on the way over? Next week, I shall have one last boiled smoked ham dinner with cabbage and greenie beanies with Florida greenie beanies and then buy frozen greenie beanies from here at twice the price until next harvest. I buy California garlic at three times the price of Chinese genetically engineered and hydroponically grown garlic from China. I agree that buying at Walmart and Chinese Tire (Canadian Tire) and the like is only frugal for many goods but when it comes to food, I draw the line. Canada and USA only for this little black duck. (Daffy Duck if you don't get the reference.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: gnu Date: 23 Nov 12 - 05:38 PM Oops... local cabbage, of course. Greenie beanies from Florida. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Bobert Date: 23 Nov 12 - 05:46 PM One of the national news stations did an interesting piece a couple years ago... I think it was NBC but don't hold me to it... Anyway, they went into someone's home and removed everything that was no American made and it all but emptied the residence... They then sponsored the family to go out and replace everything with American made products and found that the cost to replace with American made was less than replacing with imports... And the quality was better... Interesting... MIA = Made in America... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Will Fly Date: 23 Nov 12 - 05:57 PM The computer that you're using now - at this moment - where was it made? Where were the components made? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:15 PM "Until somebody bans capitalism I'll have to go on buying stuff as cheap as I can get it. I'm not boycotting Amazon, Israel, China or anybody else. I can't afford to." You can't afford *not* to....but then perhaps you have to know what's coming to understand. Bruce is right. China is incredibly good at playing Monopoly and we ain't seen nothing yet. By the way, Amazon.com is shite compared to Amazon.Rainforest. Sadly, most people don't even think of The Amazon when they use that site, nor how the bloke who owns it treats his workers, nor the fact that the real Avatar is actually happening in Amazon.Rainforest. The future of our world, and our place in it, is in OUR hands and it is way past time we started to seriously think what we're doing... Buy local. Think small. Go Permaculture. And...Hold On Tight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:51 PM It is not treason to by Chinese. It is more patriotic to buy local. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Don Firth Date: 23 Nov 12 - 07:02 PM My Hewlett-Packard (which I had always understood to be an American company) was made in China. I didn't know until it arrived from H-P and I read the labels on the machine. I don't know of any computers that are NOT made in China. Or Japan (Sony? But then, maybe the Japanese farm them out to China too). Most of the time there is no way of telling ahead of time. Don Firth P. S. By the way, it is NOT cheap and cheesy. It's a good, solid machine and it works just fine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Nov 12 - 08:39 PM Wacky response, Lizzy. I'm sure your head was spinning with passion there. Good for you. I argue the toss just like you, I fight the good fight just like like you. But when I say "afford" I'm talking about what money I have. I can have all the bloody principles in the world, but if I want to survive I do at least have to operate in this capitalist world, even if I'm not, at least in spirit, of it. And so do you. You're probably going to respond in heated fashion to this on a machine made either by some filthy-rich capitalist corporation in the US or in China. And then there's your broadband service provider, who I dare say doesn't work out of some village cooperative on Nutwood Common. Fire away! :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Henry Krinkle Date: 23 Nov 12 - 09:45 PM Lizzie rocks!! =(:-( D) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Rapparee Date: 23 Nov 12 - 10:15 PM We;re in for a ride, alright, but not the way you think. Chinese capitalists and leaders must -- MUST!! -- clean up their act or there will be a financial revolution in China (with guns), probably before 2018. Civil war in China...think about it and think of the repercussions and consequences. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: gnu Date: 23 Nov 12 - 10:35 PM I had NEVER considered such possible, Rap. Didn't even cross my mind. Interesting postulate. Worthy of serious consideration. VERY serious consideration. Have you any description(s) for the impetus (pl? impetae?) of such? I am VERY intrigued by your post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Henry Krinkle Date: 23 Nov 12 - 10:38 PM Buy used. Thrift stores. Yard sales. Help your neighbor. =(:-( )) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: gnu Date: 23 Nov 12 - 10:40 PM Used Chinese goods? What's that gonna do, Hank? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:34 AM since this Chinese government has lasted this long I expect that they will survive being the world's #2 economy slowly overtaking #1 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Nov 12 - 01:33 AM The damage is already done. The money you spend on used Chinese junk will stay here. Don't buy new. Don't encourage the corporate bastards. =(:-( )) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: GUEST,999 Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:52 AM "It is more patriotic to buy local." Sigh. Of course it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: GUEST,999 Date: 24 Nov 12 - 04:06 AM Just a few things. Treason does not require a war or state of war to be treason. Beside that, there is however such a thing as economic war, and much of the world is presently in one with China. Certainly both Canada and the US are. The purchase of Chinese goods puts our own workers out of work. In response to redhorse, I don't know that Americans have a thing with treason. (I'm a Canadian.) I used the word treason in the thread title because I couldn't fit in 'Undermine your own economy and get away with it'. I didn't perceive your remark to be argumentative. Will's thing about computers: bingo. Thing is, we used to make them in North America. I do not understand why businesses have got away with shipping jobs overseas (but then I don't understand why people can bank offshore either). I think they should be punished for that, and the only way I have to punish them is to avoid buying their products if I can possibly do so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: redhorse Date: 24 Nov 12 - 04:37 AM Apologies,999, I had lazily assumed you were from the US. I think my comment was more prompted from the (long) run-up to the US election, where accusing the other side of being traitors seemed to be par for the course. We accuse our politicians of being corrupt, crooks, incompetent, immoral etc etc but rarely traitors. I accept we used the term historically, but it seems to have fallen largely out of use in UK in my lifetime, but not across the Atlantic. 'Undermine your own economy and get away with it' does seem a better title for the thread. There never seem to be enough characters available for thread titles. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:55 AM When I bring up this issue here I am bombarded with posts defending Chinese instruments. Eastwood mandolins. Gold Tone banjos. Lots of whining about how real instruments cost too much. So they gleefully buy Chinese. =(:-( )) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Will Fly Date: 24 Nov 12 - 07:57 AM I'm all for buying local, Henry - that's why I don't buy American guitars any more. I have mine made for me by local luthiers - I agree a fair price, get to choose the materials and see them made, and put my cash back into the local economy by supporting local craftsmen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Nov 12 - 08:20 AM Good. I buy used North American instruments to keep. Used Asian crap to sell and horse trade. =(:-( )) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Bobert Date: 24 Nov 12 - 08:27 AM Actually, buy Chinese stuff in itself isn't inherently evil... It's a matter of what we buy and how much of it... There are products that we make better and cheaper (after transportation costs are factored in)... I always get suspicious when people pound nationalism and isolationist ideas... Those, BTW, are tenants of fascism... Plus, in a global economy, the economy of the US is dependent on the success of China's... We need to work toward a "balance" rather than "no trade"... This will do more for out economy than an all out trade war and isolationism... Sorry to interject sound economic policy... Now back to pounding the drum... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Nov 12 - 08:33 AM We need to enslave the Chinese and make them do all the work and pay all the taxes while we sit back and eat gummy bears. =(:-( P) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: GUEST,999 Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:13 AM Until there IS a balance of trade, Bobert, we need to stop buying stuff from China. If we don't there will never BE a balance at all. And stop assuming that because you make a statement about 'sound economic policy' it's necessarily sound. It isn't. It looks more like a response to get your two cents in. You're entitled to that, and your opinion, but shit like 'back to pounding the drum' implies that you have spoken and there's nothing left to be said except thoughts from others not quite up to the task. Pffft. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Will Fly Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:32 AM The problem is, Bruce - as I mentioned ironically in my earlier post - is that there's often no alternative to buying goods that haven't been manufactured in China. And, to cap it all, you can buy goods from an American corporation - how's about Apple as an example - and you're still buying into Chinese manufacture. So, the pressure - if you think it should be applied - should really be on those US/UK/European companies who outsource their production to the Far East. Their motive, often driven by shareholders, is profit, and isn't that the American/British/European way? Rather than help to support a local workforce - and lose some profits because of home labour costs - they take advantage of cheaper wage costs to make the profits. And the cost to the local economy is - what we know it is. Which is why I'm typing this on a Mac Book Pro laptop dreamed up by an American (Steve Jobs), designed by an Englishman (forget his name) and manufactured by people in China. And you can't blame the Chinese for this - we went to them, caps in hand, to get the benefit of cheap labour, and screwed our own people in the process. Now, when I throw away my Mac Book Pro, tell me where I can buy a replacement that's not made in, or with components from, Asia. When I buy a car or a TV or a mobile phone or a battery driven watch - find me electronic components in them that haven't been manufactured in Asia... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:39 AM Filthy bastards! =(:-( )) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: GUEST,999 Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:45 AM Chart that shows the inequality of US trade with China in 2012. That translates to US jobs down the toilet. About the same level of imbalance between Canada and China. That translates to Canadian jobs down the toilet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Ron Davies Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:59 AM Treason is a term which has often been abused in the US--by Jefferson, among others. As established in law under John Marshal's Supreme Court, and based on the Constitution, it requires levying war or giving aid and comfort to the enemy and must consist of overt acts, not just intention, testified to by at least two witnesses in open court. Disliking Burr for other reasons--which I could go into-- Jefferson sent a message to Congress declaring him guilty of treason "beyond question"--before the trial. Burr was accused of seeking to separate part what was then the West of the US from the rest and setting himself up the ruler of that area. He was thought to have an army of about 7,000 for this purpose. But for some reason, this army could not be found. He was not even in the place where the alleged army was gathering. Burr did in fact to topple Mexico if war were declared against Spain, but there is no proof he intended to attack US forces in New Orleans, which was part of the alleged conspiracy. Jefferson's case was not helped by the fact that his star witness, General Wilkinson, one of the highest ranking military men in the US, was himself in the pay of Spain, had been so for many years, was himself deeply involved in the conspiracy, and had altered documents to hide this fact ( at the trial he admitted altering documents, but being in the pay of Spain was only conclusively established when documents from Havana proving this were shipped to Madrid about 1888, long after the deaths of all the principals.) General Wilkinson also declared martial law in New Orleans and clapped in jail anybody who could give information about his own involvement in the "conspiracy". When Jefferson lost the treason trial against Burr, despite having the US spend about $100, 000 for a conviction, he pushed to have Supreme Court terms changed from lifetime appointments, or at least make Justices easier to remove. Later, Jefferson also sought to have somebody who was violating his embargo arraigned for treason. He lost on this also. If this be thread creep, make the most of it. RE: China: you'd be hard put to make a treason charge stick, especially since we are told by our leaders that we are on good terms with China. Jan has something to point out on this also: that the root of the problem is the US (and not just US) consumer insistence on low prices; the US should be willing to accept higher prices for goods made in the US. Here, of course, she also runs into the realities of both capitalism and the rights of the individual. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Ron Davies Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:01 PM "Burr did in fact seek to.." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Ron Davies Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:20 PM Relatively recently, some have accused Jonathan Pollard, who gave US intelligence secrets to Israel, of treason. But this Clinton decided not to pursue this case. It is unclear--and I think, unlikely--that Pollard would have been convicted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Ron Davies Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:27 PM "But Clinton decided" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: GUEST,999 Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:57 PM No apology needed or necessary, Redhorse, but thank you. BM PS Your nailing the painting in short order was something else. ##################### (Sorry for the thread drift, lol.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 24 Nov 12 - 04:13 PM Trouble is, most people don't give a shit, nor do they have any knowledge about where their 'stuff' comes from. I used to work in Ann Harvey's, a dress chain, here in Torquay, (now shut down). One day, when I was even more bored in there than usual, I started to look at all the labels on the clothes, finding out where they came from. Vietnam and Romania were the top countries...but everywhere else was there too, China, Poland etc... Nothing from the UK.... The other lassies I worked with couldn't believe it, assuming *everything* in the shop was made here. The BRIC countries are all cause for great concern. Hopefully, Mother Earth will sort it out for us all to the point where 'stuff' no longer is of any significance whatsoever due to the fact that staying alive becomes the Number One priority... Here in Torquay, Devon, it's been raining for the last 16 hours or more without a single break! This is after terrible storms the day before yesterday, where we have winds so strong you couldn't go out and again, continuous rain. We're drowning over here in the UK, slowly but surely...and the crops are all turning to shite. But not ONCE do you here the bloody BBC, or anyone else, saying "Now WHAT can be causing this change in the weather and WHY is it happening and are WE the cause of it?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Nov 12 - 04:26 PM I think it's the same thing that's making girls reach puberty so early. =(:-( P) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: gnu Date: 24 Nov 12 - 05:29 PM MacDonald's burgers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: treeman Date: 24 Nov 12 - 07:47 PM HM Queen Elizabeth has put her signature to various treaties which ostensibly have given the so called european parliament, superiority over British law. That is TREASON. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: gnu Date: 24 Nov 12 - 07:58 PM Perhaps, but British tradition speaks to the fact that Brits will simply ignore that superiorty if it suits them. No? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Henry Krinkle Date: 25 Nov 12 - 02:05 AM Why was beheading reserved for nobles? =(:-( o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: GUEST,999 Date: 25 Nov 12 - 10:57 AM Because it was considered too posh for the average peasant. It gave rise to expressions such as 'Now's your chance to get a head' and 'Don't lose your head over it', etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Will Fly Date: 25 Nov 12 - 11:40 AM A quick death was reserved for the rich - the poor got a painful death with much suffering: hung, drawn and quartered. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Henry Krinkle Date: 25 Nov 12 - 12:30 PM So the guillotine was more merciful and democratic. =(:-( D) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Will Fly Date: 25 Nov 12 - 12:48 PM And sure... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: GUEST,Squeezer Date: 25 Nov 12 - 02:40 PM If you are American, there is a convincing argument that it is unpatriotic NOT to buy Chinese (or Canadian, or anyone else's) goods. (This doesn't apply so much to Europeans, who have a different political culture.) 1. There is only one economic system in the Free World, and that's Free Enterprise Capitalism (FEC - pronounced Feck). For Americans, the only conceivable alternative is communism (or as it's often called in the USA, socialism - it seems that the two terms are synonymous in America for all intents and purposes.)Because of this extreme polarisation, and because of the constant promotion of FEC as the only system that can provide economic benefit, FEC is unreservedly accepted as the foundation of the democratic ideal, to the extent that any criticism of FEC is seen as an implied criticism of democracy as well. Conversely, it is often believed that if a former communist/socialist country whole-heartedly adopts FEC as an economic system, then democracy and improved human rights will inevitably follow. 2. If you think that FEC is somehow being unpatriotic by moving production overseas, or not doing enough to protect workers' jobs at home, you misunderstand what FEC is for. The purpose of FEC is to create wealth for those who invest in it, simply that and no more. It is not concerned with creating wealth for those who do its work. It is not concerned with workers' "rights", or conditions, or health, or even their jobs if it is relatively uneconomic to preserve them. It is not concerned with the environment. It is not unduly concerned with the future, as long as profits can continue to be made for the foreseeable future. It is not even concerned with patriotism, except when patriotic sentiments can be channelled by the ad men. Of course, it may, on particular issues, be forced to concern itself with something other than creating wealth - by a government which limits working hours or avoidable pollution for example - but left to itself (what is known as the laissez faire situation) FEC will maximise the exploitation of both human and natural resources. 3. It is perfectly understandable that a FEC industry will legitimately try to save on production costs by relocating its manufacturing to a low-cost labour area. Although the domestic work-force wil lose jobs, the industry's chances of survival in a competitive global market are improved. 4. If you are fully supportive of FEC you can have no complaint. The system is only doing what it always has done since industrial manufacturing started some 250 years ago. Because of FEC, you have benefited with high standards of living, comfort, health. It may be that these things were achievable without FEC, but when did you ever seriously consider supporting another kind of system? If you do not support FEC, including its globalisation program, then you must be trying to dig up one of the foundation stones of the Free World. That's clearly unpatriotic, and you'd better watch out that the John Birchers don't find out where you live. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: gnu Date: 25 Nov 12 - 02:50 PM Squeezer... FEC that's an excellent post! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Musket Date: 26 Nov 12 - 10:31 AM If I don't buy from China, how can I collect Ming vases? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: GUEST,999 Date: 26 Nov 12 - 10:36 AM That's a darned good point. May I suggest you get the American ripoffs? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 26 Nov 12 - 10:39 AM No market is free. Neither is enterprise ever free. We have to oppose short term dumping to destroy our manufacturing as China has done with solar panels. We have to support US manufacturers against short term predatory competition. Those are major reasons we are in the hole we are in. Its not too late. Buy North American. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 26 Nov 12 - 10:40 AM American ripoffs of Ming vases are made in Taiwan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Greg F. Date: 26 Nov 12 - 03:03 PM Ah, but those Chinese-made solar panels (and everything else) all have U.S. corporations names on 'em - and the U.S. corporations - marking up goods it costs next to nothing to produce - are doing very well, thank you. Don't put this all on the Chinese. We have met the enemy, and he is us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: ollaimh Date: 26 Nov 12 - 03:09 PM american are into patriotism and you know the oldest quote from the republic"patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 26 Nov 12 - 03:10 PM No they don't Greg F. Chinese panels, Chinese brands, killing companies like Solyndra and putting companies like GE out of that business. We have traitorous companies to be sure, but George W. Bush totally got our ass kicked in a trade war. It was more important to him to subsidize war contractors than fight for clean energy. and some business are not coming back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: GUEST,Squeezer Date: 26 Nov 12 - 05:05 PM Jack, I'm not sure what you mean by there being no really free enterprise. As I said in my post, businesses may be forced to restrain their practices but they don't generally have any kind of attitude to social issues except where profits are concerned. Can you give an example of what you mean? What I was trying to get across as well is that FEC is not *meant* to have a particular social attitude. It *is* meant to make money for its shareholders. The premise of the title of this thread (that big business commits treason by buying another country's products) is misguided, because it is assuming a function or role for FEC which it only appears to have sometimes, i.e. upholding the economy of its home country. It's really more like an engine placed into the fabric of society to make it go. FEC is no more concerned with the economic survival or well-being of any group of citizens than the engine of your car is concerned with road safety. Your engine is there to turn diesel fuel into kinetic energy, and it would be completely unreasonable to expect anything else. As I have suggested, as your engine is stamped with the Stars and Stripes, in your case unreasonable = treasonable. Your don't have "traitorous companies". You have companies with shareholders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:41 PM Squeezer, If companies can have free speech at a greater level than citizens, then their culpability in treasonous practices id greater as well. The problem is with the people for having self-defeating regulation. But do not pretend that "Free Enterprise Capitalism" is anything but an idealistic theory. Our system requires regulation and is rife with corruption. It is not really capitalism and as I said before it is not free in any sense of the word. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: GUEST,999 Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:57 PM I can't believe I'm gonna agree with JtS, but imo he's nailed it on this one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Henry Krinkle Date: 26 Nov 12 - 07:58 PM Sometimes he's a smart feller. Other times........... =(:-( )) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: GUEST,Squeezer Date: 27 Nov 12 - 09:42 AM Well, of course I'm only talking as a European observing FEC in the US and naturally don't really know in detail how different things are over there. Also, I should say that I have never studied economics or political science - I'm just putting across a personal and possibly uninformed opinion. If you say that in America businesses (I assume you mean big business, not your convenience store or local laundromat) have more free speech than the average citizen (which I take to mean that a large corporation can speak more freely in the media and say things the average citizen wouldn't dare to) then I'll take your word for that. Though I quite quite see the connection between their freer speech and their so-called "treasonous practices". If business, large or small, is making money for its shareholders then it is doing what every American has always expected it to do, and (unless there is a radical and "treasonable" change in the structure of the business of making money) what every American will continue to expect. And of course, every European too, and everyone who subscribes to FEC by investing in it. And of course FEC is everywhere restrained by regulations which have been imposed upon it. Left it itself, industry would probably still be working children in factories 16 hours a day. But I'm not sure what you mean by "self-defeating" regulations(? against ordinary people, or restraining business). Perhaps we are talking at cross-purposes here. As for corruption, I'm sure it goes on everywhere. There was a scandal some years ago when a big British company was found to have budgeted bribes into a major business deal it was getting under way in SE Asia. Or maybe Saudi Arabia, I forget which. In their defence they said that bribery was an essential part of doing business in that part of the world. No doubt it's as essential in parts of the Western world as well. But in the business's home country, if public officials expect bribes to get the necessary paperwork done, is that really the fault of the businesses? FEC and public sector administration are quite separate, and while both parties commit an offence if money changes hands (at least in the West) the honesty of public officials is, in the last resort, a matter for the voting public. I am unsure too about your claim that FEC is just an idealistic theory, is not really capitalism, and is not free. In the first place (and it's just my opinion) FEC is not "idealistic". It's a system which has turned out to be quite dreadful in its impact on the lives and welfare of millions of ordinary people all over the world who deserve better. (I'm talking about large companies and multi-nationals here, not e.g. small family companies. There's a world of difference between them). Anyone, expert or not, can argue forever about different political/economic systems, but we have (or should have) learned at least two things in the past few years :- 1. Communism doesn't work. After only about 70 years the USSR and the communist Eastern European bloc were bankrupt. As a system it is too inefficient to deliver sustainable benefits to its people. 2. FEC doesn't work. The current global crisis is only the latest, and one of the worst, of a long series of crises. If we get out of this one, it's only going to happen again whenever investors are scared off in enough numbers. As a system it is too unstable to deliver sustainable benefits to its people. As for not being capitalism and not really free, can you be a bit more specific? In communist Russia it was illegal to set up a business for personal profit - I suppose you don't mean the same applies where you live. I suppose too that there is nothing to stop you getting some capital together, either from your own assets and/or from people willing to invest with you in hopes of making more money in the future, which I believe is what capitalism is essentially about. The money is freely given and freely allowed by the State. That is surely what FEC essentially requires. The system itself does not require regulation (which is why it is "free", as opposed to the communist "command" economic model) - regulation is something imposed upon it by some political body, either local, or provincial, or national depending on the extent of activity for the purposes of health and safety, or taxation and accounting, or whatever. Also, I am not sure whether you are saying that in America there is too much regulation, or not enough, or whether in either case that's a good or bad thing. And I assume we are talking about business which is for instance big enough to lobby at provincial level. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: GUEST,999 Date: 27 Nov 12 - 10:14 AM "There was a scandal some years ago when a big British company was found to have budgeted bribes into a major business deal it was getting under way in SE Asia. Or maybe Saudi Arabia, I forget which. In their defence they said that bribery was an essential part of doing business in that part of the world. No doubt it's as essential in parts of the Western world as well." Squeezer, Google Charbonneau Commission It is a hard look into corruption within the construction industry in Quebec. City of Montreal offices--engineering, contract awards, Mayor's office (he resigned a while back). The cost to taxpayers has been substantial. So far they've scratched the surface. The City of Laval which borders Montreal has had offices raided by the police twice now that I'm aware of, and their mayor has also resigned (or is about to). I expect the Commission will uncover some seriously ugly stuff as it continues probing, and it's possible that aspects of corruption connections will drift all the way to Ottawa, Canada's capital and home of the House of Commons. I doubt the Conservatives, Liberals or Bloc Quebecois will come out of this unscathed. As Quebeckers we've known for over 50 years that corruption is a fact of life in Montreal and in a broader sense the province. This is the first inquiry that's had the cajones and political oomph to dig deep and then dig deeper. I don't know that there's been a single contract in decades that has come in on time and on budget--especially difficult to do because pinning down what the exact budget is/was has been difficult. The awarding of contracts has been in the hands of people who themselves were corrupted, and low bids without kickbacks were ignored. There are construction firms that have tried to play by the rules. That is, they have refused to give kickbacks. They also have been refused the work. It's quite a story, and one Quebeckers have long awaited. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Nov 12 - 09:58 AM The other lassies I worked with couldn't believe it Yeah, sounds like it was a dog's life in there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: GUEST,999 Date: 28 Nov 12 - 10:19 AM "The other lassies I worked with couldn't believe it Yeah, sounds like it was a dog's life in there." Mr Shaw, that was bad! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Commit treason and get away with it. From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Nov 12 - 02:20 PM :-) |
