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BS: church heating question
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Subject: BS: church heating question From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 13 Nov 12 - 01:48 PM I belong to a church that has a building from the 1920's - one of those glorious old structures too beautiful to destroy and too expensive to keep up. Yesterday, my dear husband (the DH) and I were cleaning the basement when I observed that the heating plant produces a steady high-pitched whistle. I didn't time it. I'd say it goes on for several minutes. It certainly sounds wrong against the powerful, steady rumble of the rest of the system. It's a steam system, with two big boilers that look like giant hot-water heaters, and radiators upstairs. It uses natural gas. I have sensitive hearing, and I was getting out my hearing protection to block out the high-pitched screaming whistle when I asked the DH if he could hear it. He looked puzzled, listened hard, then nodded. Clearly a sound which was bothering me was almost inaudible to him. It occurs to me that it might be completely inaudible to the technician who last serviced the plant. Should I sound the alarm on this, or is this kind of sound normal? We don't want to pay for a service call if there's nothing wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: gnu Date: 13 Nov 12 - 02:29 PM It does sound normal. Many servicemen can't hear squat when you ask them if "that noise" is normal. As for the heating system, I have no experience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: theleveller Date: 13 Nov 12 - 02:38 PM Sounds like an evil spirit - call an exorcist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Donuel Date: 13 Nov 12 - 02:53 PM First know where the emergency cut of switch is to avoid steam explosions should the noise ominously indicate excessive pressure. Find an expert in your area who will work for God's wages. Personally I think churchs should be as hot as hell during services and be allowed to cool down by the time to go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: GUEST,999 Date: 13 Nov 12 - 03:23 PM Don't know what happened to my post. "Should I sound the alarm on this, or is this kind of sound normal? We don't want to pay for a service call if there's nothing wrong." If there is any kind of high squeal on any mechanical system, then two pieces of metal are rubbing together and it will only get worse. Natural gas and steam: both reason enough to have the system checked. The gas company should do it for free. The people checking the steam part of it will likely charge. Get the gas part of the system checked first. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie Date: 13 Nov 12 - 03:32 PM Im sure The Lord will provide. Otherwise, they reckon worshiping Lucifer keeps you warm as Hell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Greg F. Date: 13 Nov 12 - 03:37 PM CALL A PROFESSIOPNAL IMMEDIATELY. Cheaper than an explosion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 13 Nov 12 - 06:49 PM Thanks, 999. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Bobert Date: 13 Nov 12 - 07:07 PM Sounds to me like a very small leak in a pipe fitting, leeneia... Since you have good hearing you should be able to zero in on where it is coming from... Once you have an idea where the sound is coming from then you can take a squirt bottle of soapy water spray it around where you hear it... If the soapy water stops the whistle then you have zeroed in on where the leak is... Once you have done that you will more than likely find a pipe threaded into another pipe or a union that joins two pipes of equal size.. Maybe a just a little tightening with 2 pipe wrenches will fix it... Now, if the sound is coming from one of the two boilers that could indicate an internal leak in a boiler tube but with the burning around them I wouldn't think you'd hear that... BTW, when were the boilers last "punched" (cleaned)??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: GUEST Date: 13 Nov 12 - 10:39 PM Take a handheld digital recorder like a Zoom down there and record as close as you can to where you think the noise is loudest. That way you may at least collect audio evidence you can play back to a technician [Headphones, or somewhere in a quieter room]. I have tinnitus so am always hearing such noises. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 14 Nov 12 - 03:49 AM My guess is it's the pump. But it's always false economy not to have boilers investigated. Best to get an expert in and pay if necessary. There'll be more to pay if the thing explodes or damages itself. By the way, we have 6 churches in our Benefice, in 6 villages around here. Sitting in every one of them is like a visit to the Arctic. One has absolutely no heating at all, and no electricity. It's lit by candles when darkness falls, and we try to sit near a candle in a pathetic attempt to feel some heat! |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Richard Bridge Date: 14 Nov 12 - 04:32 AM I have one word to say about ignoring funny noises in big old boilers, probably with no modern safety systems. Indianapolis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Bobert Date: 14 Nov 12 - 08:47 AM Well, old boilers are burn fuel oil which is not real volatile so, unlike natural gas explosion, there's not that level of danger... Eliza could be correct... A boiler system does have a pump which pumps hot water thru radiators... That pump assembly has at least 2 bushings (one in the pump housing and one or two for the motor)... Some of them have a small nipple with a cap on it for oiling the bearings... It's easy to find because it will have electric wiring going to it... I think you can fix this yourself, leeneia... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Greg F. Date: 14 Nov 12 - 09:03 AM Uh, Bobert - leeneia sez in the first post that the boiler runs on natural gas....... |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 14 Nov 12 - 09:49 AM Thanks very much, Bobert. YOu know, there's a certain sweet clarity in the voice of the person who knows what he's talking about. "A small leak in a pipe fitting" is exactly what it sounds like. We have a member who is studying HVAC, and my next step will be to talk to him. No, my next step will be to print out helpful posts from here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Bobert Date: 14 Nov 12 - 11:58 AM Tell him about the squirt bottle trick, leeneia... Works like a charm... Gas fired??? Hmmmmmm??? Propane or natural gas??? Propane is safer than natural gas... Either way, I doubt if it has anything to do with the flame... Flame doesn't whistle... It more kinda hums... BTW, I was heading up a renovation of an old, old (1826) 3 story building that had been converted to apartments and it had an old oil fired burner in the cellar... Not sure how it got there it was so big but... ...Seein' as we were having to jack the building up and had to dig and pour footers in the cellars for posts I got to know Mr. B (as in boiler) better than I wanted to... Seems that by the end of that renovation Mr. B and I knew each other better than either one of us wanted... lol... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: GUEST,999 Date: 14 Nov 12 - 12:27 PM From the opening post of this thread. "It's a steam system, with two big boilers that look like giant hot-water heaters, and radiators upstairs. It uses natural gas." Bobert, read the opening post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Bobert Date: 14 Nov 12 - 12:40 PM I did read it but forgot that it was gas fired... Doesn't change anything I've advised leeneia try... Or is unsafe... If it is one of those two the repair is easy that doesn't have anything to do with the boiler or fire... These things are outside of the boiler and standard to all boiler systems... Sheesh... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: GUEST,999 Date: 14 Nov 12 - 01:43 PM True, Bobert, but sheesh back atcha. Steam systems in the piping are usually from 0.5 to 2 PSI, maximum. If leeneia is doing the repair she should be wearing safety goggles. I didn't suggest anything you said was unsafe. But it will likely require a steam fitter to do the repairs, not because leeneia isn't capable, but because she likely lacks the necessary materials/tools to do the repairs. For example: 20-foot section black iron pipe Rotary pipe cutter Pipe vise Pipe burring tool Pipe threader Cutting oil Rag 2 pipe wrenches Teflon tape 2 pipe unions Pipe strapping Heavy wood bolts Instructions 1 Turn off the furnace, and allow the radiator system to cool completely. 2 Cut out the leaking part of the pipe with the pipe cutter, and use cutting oil to protect the blades. 3 Measure and cut a length of new pipe 1 inch shorter than the piece you removed, to allow for 1 inch of threading at each of the unions. 4 Burr the ends of the new pipe to make them less sharp. 5 Place the length of pipe in the vise, and use a pipe-threading tool on each end of the pipe. Turn the threading tool until it has threaded its entire length on the outside the pipe. Cutting oil will help make this process easier and will protect the threading tool. 6 Burr each of the ends of the gap in the old pipe. 7 Thread each of the ends of the gap in the old pipe, holding onto the old pipe with a pipe wrench to prevent too much twisting as you turn the threading tool. 8 Wipe off the end of each newly threaded pipe with a rag to remove the sharp metal filings. 9 Wrap the new thread on each end of the new length of pipe in Teflon tape, and attach an iron union on each end fitting with a matching thread. Screw the union onto the pipe. 10 Wrap each end of the new thread on the old pipe with Teflon tape, and screw the new pipe into place, one end at a time, using one pipe wrench to hold the old pipe, and one to screw the new pipe into place by holding onto the union. You may need to flex the old pipe a little bit to get the new section into place; this is normal. ############################ That's a straight-forward repair that I don't doubt for a second you could handle and handle well. However, the system leeneia spoke of is very old, and I'd guess the steam leak she's hearing is just the beginning, if it is a steam leak. Anyway, I'm sure y'all will get it worked out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Bobert Date: 14 Nov 12 - 01:55 PM Or... ...duct tape!!! B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Joe_F Date: 14 Nov 12 - 03:18 PM If the DH is older than you, that may well be the reason he can't hear the squeal as well as you can. Sensitivity to high frequencies regularly fades out with age. In my youth I could hear the flyback transformer squeal emitted by old TV sets; then I stopped hearing it, even in bars. (Of course, I'd probably have to travel far to hear a CRT TV these days.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Greg F. Date: 14 Nov 12 - 03:42 PM OK- keep didling around with it. Heaven knows there's no point having someone who actually knows what they're doing take a look at in situ it when there's all these on-line nimrods to offer advice sight-unseen. Let's just hope the place doesn't go up during a service and take out a hundred people or so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: gnu Date: 14 Nov 12 - 03:49 PM Bobert... "If the soapy water stops the whistle then you have zeroed in on where the leak is..." I just use straight dish soap. Easier to see the bubbles. 9... I thought most gas was at 3psi... or is that a "max"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Bobert Date: 14 Nov 12 - 04:24 PM I don't especially trust HVAC folks, Greg... I guess if yer brother is one then you have a 50/50 chance of not getting screwed... Plus, if I can figure something out I'd rather do it, save the money and better understand the system I've figured out... That, in the very least, is worth it so that if I do have to call in a pro then I will have enough knowledge to know know if the guy is trying to take me... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Greg F. Date: 14 Nov 12 - 05:08 PM So all HVAC folks, heating techs, plumbing & heating outfits are crooks? More conspiracy theory???? Jaysus, Bobert, with the Better Business Bureau, Cyndi's list, and a host of consumer protection groups with recommendation she should be able to find SOMEONE who's honest in about 5 minutes. Play around with this if you want- but don't tell me after the fact you didn't see the big bang coming. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Bobert Date: 14 Nov 12 - 05:49 PM The problem with those is that most of the time the consumer is so clueless about what the technician is telling them that as long as the technician is friendly and the work gets completed on time and correct that all is well... But... ...there's a lot of over selling in the business... Here in Charlotte one of the TV news departments asked half a dozen "reputable" HVAC companies come do a "Fall Checkup" on a heat pump at one of the news crew's home... There was nothing wrong with the system but 4 of the 6 companies tried to sell them stuff... One company told them they needed a new heat pump and gave them an estimate of $7000... This ain't a conspiracy theory... Cyndi's list and BBB doesn't catch these folks... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Dorothy Parshall Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:33 PM http://www.mitsubishielectric.ca/en/hvac/residential.html A Quaker Meeting house in PA (circa 1800's) installed a Mr. Slim system from this web site. They are saving thousands of dollars a year in heating/cooling costs. I am NOT exaggerating. I was stunned but my health consultant was involved and is totally trustworthy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Greg F. Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:33 PM OK - They're All Out To Getcha. Stand by & wait for the explosion. Have a nice day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Bobert Date: 14 Nov 12 - 07:44 PM LOL, Greg... It's a whistling sound... Ain't gonna explode... Really... It ain't... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: gnu Date: 14 Nov 12 - 08:04 PM Video cameras are cheap. I have been well served by them over the years. One example was an air conditioner that was cutting out. The repair tech and the company OWNER didn't believe me. I videoed it. I got it fixed but if I hadn't videoed it... $500. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: GUEST,999 Date: 15 Nov 12 - 05:14 PM Further to what Dorothy said, read this. Gnu, usually 0.05 to 2.0. But that's just from my reading on the i'net. I would gladly back off if you know for sure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 15 Nov 12 - 07:16 PM There's a self-defense course (Ali Kemp) which I took. It is named for a lovely young woman who was strangled by a man because she wouldn't have sex with him the first time she met him. The course travels, and women can look it up on the Internet. In the course we learned that when felons are released from prison, they are most likely trained in the building and HVAC trades. That means that the calibre of man who works on your home or church may be quite low, to put it mildly. Greg, I wish you could have seen the junk, the fire hazards and the tripping hazards that workmen have left in our church basement. I'll describe just one - a five-gallon bucket of stripper left near the boilers with the bung gone, so it's been volatilizing for an unknown time. (We plugged it.) While I am most unlikely to fix a leaky pipe myself, I do appreciate knowing things that will keep one of those former felons from either ripping the church off or doing more damage as he sets to work half-schnockered. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Bert Date: 15 Nov 12 - 09:36 PM Call an expert and don't go near it until it is fixed. It could be a steam leak. Steam is invisible so you won't see where it is coming from and you could get seriously scalded. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: Bobert Date: 15 Nov 12 - 09:47 PM What leeneia is sayin' is that a lot of these so-called experts are felons... This is reality in a lot of trades these days... And they are not out for your best interetss... 90% of stuff can be fixed by you!!! Just ask the right questions and be smart... No reason to have ex-felon "pros" invited into yer home or place of worship... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: GUEST,999 Date: 15 Nov 12 - 10:18 PM "While I am most unlikely to fix a leaky pipe myself, I do appreciate knowing things that will keep one of those former felons from either ripping the church off or doing more damage as he sets to work half-schnockered." 1) Call a reputable company. 2) Ask the Better Business Bureau about the company. 3) Ali Kemp defense can easily be beat by a S and W. Remember rule one to winning a fight: don't be there. (From a wing chun/tkd guy.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: GUEST,marks(on the road) Date: 15 Nov 12 - 10:52 PM Only problem with steam is that it is like electricity. In small doses it can hurt you and in large doses it can kill you. If a high pressure line lets go you will hear a roaring sound but will not see anything until the steam expands and cools enough to condense and show up as white vapor. Probably some distance away. A stream of high pressure steam can quite literally cut you in half if you walk into it and you will not see it. Bottom line - where steam is involved in anything larger than a tea kettle, hire a professional. IMHO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: GUEST,999 Date: 15 Nov 12 - 11:13 PM "A stream of high pressure steam can quite literally cut you in half" That is so, no jive. I don't know enough about steam to understand what it can do or not do. BUT, I know enough to know that because I don't know enough I'd get someone who does know enough to deal with it. Steam is super heated water. Having got compos mentis--read drunk--at one time, I pushed some spinach into rapidly boiling water: forgot the water was boiling. Steam is hotter than that. I'd like to say I said all these cool things like "Holy F#####g Rat Sh#t, Batman" or "Nice try" or "Next time give me your best shot." Fact is, I hurt so darned much I couldn't say anything but "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!" Had my hand under cold water for close to 15 minutes. High pressure steam can be used to cut metal. As Mark said, steam don't hurt until it does. |
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Subject: RE: BS: church heating question From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 16 Nov 12 - 12:00 PM Good points, guys. Thanks |
