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BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential
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Subject: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Ebbie Date: 23 Oct 12 - 03:02 PM The thread on internet anonymity brought this subject forcefully into my mind. I am dismayed to finally accept that where there is no accountability there is no responsibility. Human beings operating in the dark are capable of black deeds, and far too many of them seize the opportunity. I have no idea of what proportion of people are that kind of people but take a look at 'most any Comments section of almost every article online. There are many, many merciless, ignorant, vicious, even depraved examples of them. On the physical plane also. I recently resigned as the manager of the building complex where I live. There were/are multiple reasons for why I quit but the dark-of-night activities of the Anonymous was among them. There were repeated instances of acts ranging from the petty to the potentially dangerous, all done when no one was around to witness them. One has to assume that we, as humans, do things because we draw pleasure from them. But what kind of pleasure could one get from extracting bolts from a metal door? Or stuffing paper into a keyhole? Or removing hooks from a swinging door? None of these acts were done against me personally but they – and many more – all took place in this building in the last couple of years. What is wrong with us? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: gnu Date: 23 Oct 12 - 03:10 PM What is wrong with us? That's at least a four year course at uni and a lifetime of further study. Even then... ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Rapparee Date: 23 Oct 12 - 03:29 PM Watch television, videos, movies...hurting others is funny. The "Jackass" TV series, many You Tube videos, "America's Funniest Videos", the Jerry Springer show, what passes for comedy...politics.... Why, Ebbie, think how hilarious it would be to loosen the bolts on an outside fire escape and then pull the fire alarm! Or to see someone carrying a load of things get smacked in the face by a jiggered swinging door! Or take the bulbs out of "Exit" signs! Why, there's a whole field of humor just in removing the screws that hold toilet seats on! -- people fall off onto the floor! Hilarious! A practical joke can be funny, but only if someone isn't hurt by it. There have been many, many such over the years. But something like those videos of people shooting guns and not being properly instructed about shooting and recoil AREN'T funny, they're sad. Somewhere, somehow, we turned to thinking that violence and hurting are, either actual or potential, are or can be funny. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Rapparee Date: 23 Oct 12 - 03:31 PM And I really wonder if someone who slyly blocked an exit door finds it funny when HE'S the one trapped inside with the fire. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Bill D Date: 23 Oct 12 - 03:34 PM "Human, All Too Human"- Nietzsche Ebbie, I have mused for many years about why some humans turn to dark and anti-social behavior. We can all supply ideas about causes, and no doubt we'd all be partially right. Those humans who are aware of potential responses to their behavior will, naturally, tend to seek some sort of anonymity. The internet has increased the problem, but as you have seen, certain situations tend to concentrate examples. (If you had worked in a grocery store, there would have been, at least, fewer.) All *I* have to do is read the weekly police reports for my area to realize stuff goes on all around me.... I just tend to be at home more. I wish it were easier........ (Oh... and I have seen 2-3 episodes of a TV show about police in Alaska. They state specifically that alcohol is involved with 95+% of all their calls. I assume that much of the anonymous stuff is no different) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Ebbie Date: 23 Oct 12 - 03:48 PM I agree about the alcohol involvement, Bill D, but to me it is a given that intoxication is merely the means by which something inside was unleashed... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Jeri Date: 23 Oct 12 - 05:43 PM It's not anonymity, it's that the people who do stuff like that are criminals and don't want to get caught. Pretty much the same way it was in previous centuries. Could YOU have done those things? Could any number of people have done them? You an any number of people didn't do them, despite the possibility of concealing your identity. So it's something else. Why are criminals criminals? Why are vandals vandals? They don't want to get caught, but why do they want to do that stuff in the first place? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Bill D Date: 23 Oct 12 - 05:51 PM Sadly, Ebbie... there is more & more evidence that 'some' tendencies toward bad behavior have genetic bases.... just as homosexuality has genetic links, and just as some dogs are more docile or more likely to attack. It rather 'politically incorrect' to even look at other humans in that way, but IF it is connected, it might be important to know it. Animals which are inherently dangerous can be watched, given extra training and made 'relatively' safe... as in Pit Bulls. Perhaps someday people can be made safer....not that it will make any immediate difference to how most of us live our lives and cope with 'anonymous dangers'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Rapparee Date: 23 Oct 12 - 06:29 PM "Hello. Do you have Prince Albert in the can?" "Hi. I like to order twenty pepperoni pizza for delivery. Here's the address (local police station). We're having a party." Anonymous, because back then there was no caller ID on the phone. "Hey, let's go tip over outhouses/put a buggy on Fred's barn roof/smoke some cigarettes/get drunk/steal a car and ride around." Anonymous, from the mild and annoying to dangerous and criminal. According to Lady Wentworth, "They [Mohocks London street gang, ca. 1712] put an old woman into a hogshead, and rolled her down a hill; they cut off some noses, others' hands, and several barbarous tricks, without any provocation. They are said to be young gentlemen; they never take any money from any." (Wentworth Papers, 277) "Israel has seen neo-Nazi activity, notably in the case of Patrol 35, a cell in Petah Tikva made up of eight teenage immigrants from the former Soviet Union who had been attacking foreign workers and homosexuals, and vandalizing synagogues with Nazi images." "Arguably, the zenith of the Bund's history occurred on President's Day, February 20, 1939 at Madison Square Garden in New York City. Some 20,000 people attended and heard Kuhn criticize President Roosevelt by repeatedly referring to him as "Frank D. Rosenfeld", calling his New Deal the "Jew Deal", and stating his belief of Bolshevik-Jewish American leadership. Most shocking to American sensibilities was the outbreak of violence between protesters and Bund storm troopers." Uniforms provide anonymity. So do hoods. So do a group of people who talk so much among themselves, convincing each other of the rightness of their cause, that they believe everyone else believes likewise. Anonymity comes in many forms..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: GUEST,999 Date: 23 Oct 12 - 06:32 PM The whole bloody world is being looked at by satellites and green 'eyes'. Why didn't the building owner put cameras in the hallways? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: olddude Date: 23 Oct 12 - 07:21 PM simple answer, they hate themselves and can only get satisfaction at someone else's expense, even if they are not there to see it. I remember going into a restaurant a number of years ago. My food came and I went to put salt on it and bam, the whole bottle dumps because someone unscrewed the salt shaker cap on purpose to spoil the dinner of the next person. today you don't see many of those glass shakers on tables but ya know that is the same thing. They hate themselves and doing things to others make them somehow happy. Like computer hackers. practical jokes on friends, lots of them, especially me and my brother but this is completely different |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: gnu Date: 23 Oct 12 - 07:34 PM "just as homosexuality has genetic links" I don't read the homo threads here much nor have I read much about the "related" science. I thought it was about individuals and environment BUT??? are you saying that genes can dertermine sexual preference? Bill? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Oct 12 - 08:23 PM I'm just vaguely wondering about the probability of homosexuality being heritable? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Jeri Date: 23 Oct 12 - 08:29 PM There's some evidence - twin studies, for one thing - that homosexuality may have a significant genetic predisposition. There's study data out there. Criminality-- I doubt it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Bill D Date: 23 Oct 12 - 09:45 PM Yes, gnu.. as Jeri notes.... details need more work, but probably. as to criminality... I need to see **data** on how DNA proclivities toward aggression, selfishness, etc.... affect various family and societal factors (or vise versa). It may be minor, or major.... or not clear at all, but 'an ounce of prevention' etc... I am not sure it will be possible to get an impartial study done on the idea, due to pressures from vested interests. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Ebbie Date: 23 Oct 12 - 10:27 PM But can you imagine getting satisfaction from some act when you are not even there to see it? I understand that investigative police keep a sharp eye on the people who show up at burning buildings, that the arsonist tends to be in the crowd. That act is quite, quite different from a prank. But the individual who unscrewed a salt shaker most likely is not there. The person unbolting a door isn't there when it falls down. The person who pours water onto a sidewalk isn't there to see someone fall on the ice. What is it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Bobert Date: 23 Oct 12 - 10:31 PM Be nice if everyone on the inter net was transparent... Clean up a lot of what we now see as rude... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: gnu Date: 23 Oct 12 - 10:48 PM Probably? More data. It applies to homos but not criminals? Sounds sketchy but I am open minded. If there is good data and analyses, I am keen to here of it. Not that it would mean anything to me from a practical viewpoint, that being, I just don't care what happens in the bedroom next door. I think Ebbie's question is much more perplexing as she asks about behaviour that is truly skewed and opposes what we are*, in general, taught to abhor and should abhor with an inate sense of justice. Is it genetic as some might suggest? Is it circumstance?... what is it? * As opposed to the merits of discussing less inellectual behaviour like a basic human "emotion" such as sexuality and how it interplays with our need for human "contact"... not just in a sexual sense. Gee... I see by the old clock on the wall that it's time for me to moisturize and vapourize. Hope I made SOME sense. gnightgnu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Rapparee Date: 23 Oct 12 - 10:49 PM Good heavens, Bobert! I don't want to see yer insides! If people knew they'd get caught, or even thought they'd get caught, they wouldn't do thing they do. We had a purse stolen in the library some years back. The security cameras caught the thief in the act, showed her walking up the back stairs, caught her coming down the front stairs and walking out the door. She returned the next day, wearing the same clothes, and was picked up by the same cop who took the complaint, who found the purse sitting on the woman's kitchen table. There were signs all over telling people that security cameras were installed and in use!! That was not the only crime caught on the cameras. People don't think they'll be caught. "If crooks were smart we'd have to work harder." -- Anonymous cop. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Oct 12 - 10:50 PM I think it's the search for identity in a society that has mostly lost its sense of community, Ebbie. People with a fragile sense of their own identity, with little or no sense of community, and with a lack of direction (purpose) in their lives will act out their frustrations, loneliness, and anger in various ways. Vandalism and destructive "practical jokes" are 2 ways. Violence is another. Rape is another. Drug addiction is another. And there are many more. I've been very conscious ever since the 1960s that I was living in a society that was becoming more decadent with each passing decade. This has a cumulative effect on people, and it's not good. Hypocrisy in high places (government) has also contributed to destroying people's sense of community. The breakdown of traditional family life (where one parent stayed home and took care of the children, while the other went out to work) has also caused enormous damage to the social fabric. The collapse of the extended family (several generations living together) has struck another blow against family life. Now both parents must go out to work to make ends meet, and the abandoned children end up being, in effect, brought up by electronic boxes that are full of commercial messages and a barrage of short term information and distraction that ends up moulding young people with very little attention span and very little patience or self-discipline. Why has all this happened? So someone could make lotsa more money! And that someone has been the tiny percentage of society who are on the very top of the financial pyramid. That's popularly known as the 1 percent these days. I'm not surprised that we're having problems such as you describe. I've been in places where those problems were non-existent, and they were, without exception, places that had a very strong shared sense of community and strong family life in the older, traditional sense. That's why the small towns are usually better places to live in than the big cities. Community hasn't broken down as badly yet in the smaller places, because people there still know at least some of their neighbours. Anonymity, as you say, has become an epidemic in this society. Putting in a billion security cameras everywhere is not going to solve the problem...because the problem is way deeper than that. Security cameras are a bandaid. You don't cure cancer by sticking a bandaid on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: GUEST,999 Date: 23 Oct 12 - 10:53 PM All this crap is nice. But my question remains. Why didn't the building owner install security cameras? On second thought, don't bother answering. Fuck it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Oct 12 - 10:58 PM It was probably a money-related decision, 999. (and if so, not such a good one, considering the cost of repairs to damaged stuff) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Rapparee Date: 23 Oct 12 - 11:02 PM It took an attempted child sexual abuse (at knifepoint!) to get the library to spend the USD 20,000 to install the cameras. That money had to come from other sources in the budget -- like books. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: GUEST,999 Date: 23 Oct 12 - 11:12 PM That wasn't my question, but thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Ebbie Date: 24 Oct 12 - 01:17 AM 9, if your question about the building's owner was directed at me, I did talk with them about security cameras, in fact, I called a security company for information. Problem: The cameras would cost around $4,000. The security company doesn't do things by halves- I suggested a camera at just the major entrance to the common hall. They don't do it that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 24 Oct 12 - 06:32 AM ""I'm just vaguely wondering about the probability of homosexuality being heritable?"" Not without a female coming into the picture. The first Gay person on earth inherited any genetic legacy from hetero parents. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: GUEST,999 Date: 24 Oct 12 - 08:21 AM Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Joe_F Date: 24 Oct 12 - 08:16 PM What is wrong with the world? I am. -- G. K. Chesterton In a lecture in 1984, B. F. Skinner speculated that in view of the competitiveness of life, being positively reinforced by signs of damage to others might be a trait that was selected for. That, he supposed, was why we put microphones in football helmets so that fans could hear the crunch of collisions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Bobert Date: 24 Oct 12 - 08:29 PM We have become like the mice in Skinner's Box... Not much difference and we collectively have become hostile... Throw in a polarized society and government that is grid-locked without any end in sight it has created a massive collective victim-hood societal mindset where everyone seems to feel victimized... Problem is that we have become victims... Victims of a failing country hell-bent on petty social issues while going down, down, down... But everyone is a "martyr with papers in order" (Springsteen)... People are all about "me" and fuck "we"... This is Ayn Rand's world... We are not all that different than "Mad Max, After the Thunderdome"... We are a failing state and everyone is mad as hell except the folks who are doing very well which is the upper 5%... Yes, we are Skinner's agitated mice... Nothin' more, nothin' less... B:~( |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Oct 12 - 11:45 PM Well, like I said, when you're living among people who have a real sense of community, these problems don't arise. Finding such situations these days takes a bit of work and investigation. They're not all that common, but they do exist here and there. You have to get sort of away from the mainstream society to find them...and that can mean sacrificing certain things that are found in the mainstream. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 25 Oct 12 - 07:47 AM This is a very interesting question, 'What is wrong with these people?'. I think it's because they've become detached from society and are isolated. (There are groups like this and also individuals.) They may have been ostracised frrom early childhood, abused by their parents, bullied at school, feel rejected or unacceptable. Eventually the worm turns, and they commit nasty and evil acts as revenge or even as a cry for help. Sometimes it's genetic (I don't feel that's common). I've come across pupils like this as a teacher, maybe two or three who were 'born like it' and many dozens whi IMO were 'turned into anti-social nuisances' by various circumstances. They don't realise or care about the harm their actions may do. Punishment may relieve our feelings but won't change their personalities. They need (as early as possible in their lives) love, reassurance,valuing, re-socialising and acceptance among us. But sadly this never happens. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: Henry Krinkle Date: 25 Oct 12 - 08:02 AM I don't eat out much anymore. They spit and urinate in your food. Among other disgusting things. =(:-( o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Anonymity as the ONE Essential From: gnu Date: 25 Oct 12 - 07:20 PM I dare say "they" would do so in your food, Hank. I wouldn't. I wouldn't serve someone who talks as vile as you do for simple shock jollies. |
