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BS: A fundamentalist parable
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Subject: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: frogprince Date: 17 Oct 12 - 11:04 AM LUKE 16: 19-26, (American Fundamentalist Translation) There was a certain rich man, who wore very expensive clothing, and ate plentiful amounts of rich gourmet foods every day. A beggar, named Lazarus, with sores all over his body, used to lie by the gate to the rich man's property; he wished to have at least some crumbs from the rich man's food to eat. Dogs came and licked his sores. When the rich man died, he was carried by the angels to be with Abraham in Heaven. Lazarus the beggar also died, and was buried; he then found himself tormented in the flames of Hell. He looked up, and at a great distance he saw Abraham, and the rich man there obviously enjoying companionship with him. Lazarus cried out, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send my rich neighbor down to dip his finger in water, and cool my tongue; please, these flames are unbearable." But Abraham said," Son, I can't do that. Before my friend here died, he accepted Jesus Christ as his personal savior. You never did. Now he is comforted, and you're tormented. Besides, there is a chasm between us and you so great that no one can pass it in either direction." |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: GUEST,999 Date: 17 Oct 12 - 11:13 AM Good one, Frogprince. And here's me for all these years thinking the term fundamentalist came from the word, fundament, because they talked through their asses so much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Jack the Sailor Date: 17 Oct 12 - 12:18 PM It puzzles me how many people claim to love Jesus but blatantly ignore his teachings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Stringsinger Date: 17 Oct 12 - 12:57 PM The parable is that you can screw the poor as long as you believe in Jesus Christ, you are saved. What horse shit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Bill D Date: 17 Oct 12 - 01:22 PM There seems to be an all-too-common notion.. (in everyday play, as well as religion).. that it is easier to get forgiveness than permission. |
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Subject: ADD: Jesus Loves Me More (Buddy Tabor) From: Ebbie Date: 17 Oct 12 - 02:01 PM JESUS LOVES ME MORE (Buddy Tabor, Juneau, Alaska) Oh I know it's cold sleeping in your car But you really are to blame for where you are I can see that you're down to skin and bones But it's not my fault you're starving all alone But you surely cannot punish my success Just because my way of life has been so blessed The reason why you ain't got no food or any shoes Is because Jesus loves me more than he loves you While millions starve I'm putting on more weight That's not my destiny, not my fate Oh, I'd love to help you out but you have sinned And I know you'd only go and sin again But at night when I lie down there's something wrong There's no joy when I try to sing your song There's a little voice that will not go away Telling me that I've judged and I have strayed But you surely cannot punish my success Just because my way of life has been so blessed The reason why you ain't got no food or any shoes Is because Jesus loves me more than he loves you Yes Jesus loves me. Yes, Jesus loves me. Yes, Jesus loves me more than he loves you Thank you, Lord. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 17 Oct 12 - 02:39 PM Comedic version as follows: When I was a kid I prayed and prayed to God for a bicycle, but never got one. Then I realised he doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for him to forgive me. I believe that was from Peter Kay. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: GUEST,999 Date: 17 Oct 12 - 03:05 PM It may have been told by Kay, but I think it originated with Emo Phillips (sp?). |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Oct 12 - 03:09 PM To the contrary, Bill, permission (from the traditional God as seen in most religions) is a given. We all have free will. Free will provides everyone with total permission to do anything they want to, no matter how idiotic or destructive it is. They are strongly advised not to do various things, certainly, but the final decision about it is clearly up to them...the hope being that they WILL eventually learn something useful from their adventures in free will. The fundamentalist parable above is indeed an amusing demonstration of the insane, money-worshipping philosophy espoused by many in the religious and political Right in the USA. Jesus is reputed to have said that people can either love money...or they can love God...but they cannot serve 2 masters. He also said it was incument upon them to love their neighbor as much as they love themselves, and to forgive their enemies. This might not sit too well with the religious Right in the USA if they gave it some thought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: MMario Date: 17 Oct 12 - 03:29 PM Just so that it is tied to the original post in this thread so that web surfers don't take post with a grain of salt; the King James Version: Luke 16:19-26 King James Version (KJV) 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Oct 12 - 04:24 PM And all folkies know Dives and Lazarus. Some of us sing it too. Ebbie - where can I get the tune of that or a youtube recording or something? I WANT to do it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Bill D Date: 17 Oct 12 - 04:34 PM "Free will provides everyone with total permission to do anything they want to, no matter how idiotic or destructive it is. They are strongly advised not to do various things.." So.. the 10 Commandments are "suggestions"? (and my not quite finished Master's thesis was on Free Will vs. Determinism) |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: gnu Date: 17 Oct 12 - 04:48 PM Thread drift. A local ******* chuch has a billboard on the lawn which says, "Jesus Christ died for our sins." Every time I drive by that sign, as a (pretty) good Cat'lic, I think to myself, I ain't messin with that bad bunch a mothers. What DID they do? |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Ed T Date: 17 Oct 12 - 04:55 PM ""Humour is the only test of gravity, and gravity of humour, for a subject which will not bear raillery is suspicious, and a jest which will not bear serious examination is false wit"". (Quote by - Aristotle) |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Ed T Date: 17 Oct 12 - 04:58 PM ""Children have a remarkable talent for not taking the adult world with the kind of respect we are so confident it ought to be given. To the irritation of authority figures of all sorts, children expend considerable energy in "clowning around." They refuse to appreciate the gravity of our monumental concerns, while we forget that if we were to become more like children our concerns might not be so monumental"". (Quote by - Conrad Hyers) |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Ebbie Date: 17 Oct 12 - 05:18 PM Richard B, Buddy is not on YouTube with it but Michael Truax covered the song last April after Buddy had died in February and he is the one who pops up when you type the song into YouTube. Mike is one of our favo(u)rite local singers. There is a clip on cdbaby of the song, available for $.99. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/buddytabor Anthology, Volume I Jesus Loves Me More Here is what a reviewer in Whitehorse, YT had to say about Buddy's work: "Gil Knutson Major artist ignored Buddy Tabor was personally introduced to me by my daughters boyfriend last year while at party just outside Whitehorse. Impressed me then, so I ended up with Anthology I, II and III. I would hate to have to pick which one of the three is a favourite... for they all have superb songs on all of them. Actually, I don't really dislike any of the selections on any of the CD's, but must recommend at least three or four songs from this Volume. Abandoned Cars and Broken Hearts is a great song to introduce Buddy to any potential purchasers. It could have easily been penned by any of the great folk singer/songwriters, as could Texas Blue Radio, 1952, Mr. Basketball Shoes (yeah, I thought it was an odd name for a song, until I heard it. The title fits!), Earth & The Sky, River Hymn, and Blinding Flash of Light. He was also a very accomplished guitarist. "Overall, an exceptional selection of songs. Unfortunately, Buddy died In February of this year (2012), and will be missed by all his fans in Alaska and The Yukon. Do yourself a favour and try one of these music selections, or better yet, try the whole set." |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Arkie Date: 17 Oct 12 - 05:28 PM A common reason given by many who claim to be 'Christian' is 'biblical principles'. Not Christian principles but biblical principles. Many of these so called evangelicals are nothing more than con-men (con-people). Little Hawk's comment comes much closer to 'Christian principles'. Jesus was plagued by 'legalists'. Paul was plagued by 'legalists'. Today the legalists justify themselves by 'biblical principles'. Just as the legalists of former times they choose some principles and ignore the ones that really matter. It makes me just a little sad to think that Billy Graham, one evangelical besides Jim Wallis, who has managed to gain and keep my respect is now speaking under the veil of 'biblical principles'. How anyone can read either the Four Gospels or Paul's letters and come to the conclusion that anti-abortion and fear of homosexual behavior are the only two or either most important 'biblical principles' is beyond me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: frogprince Date: 17 Oct 12 - 08:07 PM If Jesus wasn't opposed to homosexuality, he wouldn't have talked about it so much! Come to think of it, I don't believe that I have ever in my life heard a fundamentalist acknowledge that we have no indication that Jesus ever mentioned it. Perhaps they feel that he found it so distasteful that he couldn't bring himself to talk about it. |
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Subject: ADD: Brand New Jesus (Buddy Tabor) From: Ebbie Date: 17 Oct 12 - 08:22 PM Buddy didn't write many religious songs but he was a fierce advocate for the disenfranchised. Here's another of his: BRAND NEW JESUS Buddy Tabor, Juneau, Alaska I dreamed that Jesus came back down to earth And to him the poor had very little worth: And the meek shall perish by the hand of the conquerors of this proud land And the peacemakers shall die one by one Come and see this brand new thing I have done I only died to forgive the sins of the wealthy, the elite I don't like to hang around the whores and the homeless on the street Let them try to get a job if they really want to eat I gave up on those ones a long time ago When I turned those loaves and fishes into stone I do not turn the other cheek no more And I've got an appetite for blood and war And those who show no mercy will inherit even more I'll even show you how to sharpen up your swords Brand new Jesus, brand new plan Brand new Jesus, right-wing man |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: gnu Date: 17 Oct 12 - 08:55 PM Powerful words, Ebbie... thanks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Arkie Date: 18 Oct 12 - 08:48 AM Now what is so strange to me, Ebbie, is that these present day 'Christians' who have crawled into bed with the politicians and corporations who pursue the goals of this 'new Jesus' would proclaim these words to be offensive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Ebbie Date: 18 Oct 12 - 09:42 AM Oh, he's got worse than that. You should see his 'Temples of Mass Consumption.' :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: frogprince Date: 18 Oct 12 - 04:25 PM I don't think that, as a rule, the followers of the "new jesus" (small case deliberate) are the most self-aware of people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Oct 12 - 06:38 PM BillD - Yes, Bill, I do think that the 10 Commandments are suggestions, albeit strong ones! They are suggestions as to how one might best behave in order to have a good life, but they in no way stand as something capable of blocking anyone's use of free will. The ancient Jews chose to call them Commandments, because they thought in those kind of authoritative terms. They also thought of God as being "all-powerful". If something all-powerful utters a command...it IS DEFINITELY going to be obeyed...no matter what. The fact that the 10 Commandments were frequently not obeyed indicates that people had permission (through their use of free will) to deny those Commandments if they wanted to. It was up to them. Therefore, in my opinion, they were suggestions, not commandments. Free will is one of the most outstanding aspects of our existence, and is recognized in all the great religions. The responsibility we carry is to have free will...face all kinds temptations and weaknesses...and struggle with our use of free will. By doing so, we gain experience, and in time...wisdom. Hopefully... And if not, we inevitably pay a price for it according to both Newtonian physics and the laws of karma which both essentially state the same thing: that each action generates an equal and opposite reaction. Thus, destructive actions generate destructive consequences...not necessarily immediately, but in time. At the heart of all great religions is the search for a coherent set ot ethics by which to steer a life. The problem with the Religious Right in the USA is that their ethical sense is totally skewed in the direction of worshipping money and rugged individualism (selfishness). In so doing, they are standing very much against what Jesus taught...regardless of whether they think they are "saved" or not. Jesus was quite clearly a democratic socialist in his basic instincts. This would horrify the Right Wing in America! ;-) They'd have to crucify him if he came again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: GUEST,999 Date: 19 Oct 12 - 09:52 AM "I do think that the 10 Commandments are suggestions, albeit strong ones!" Ya want 'suggestions, albeit strong ones', have a boo at the Code of Hammurabi. Paragraph three gets to it real fast. Worth a look. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: frogprince Date: 19 Oct 12 - 10:50 AM When I wrote up the original post, I wasn't thinking much of the political implications. We had just attended a very fundamentalist church on "visitor's day" at the invitation of one of my wife's good friends. We sat through an extreme example of what I personally call "savedism", the absolute reduction of Christianity to "accept Jesus as your personal saviour", with no suggestion whatever that Jesus taught anything about how to live. I've heard, and seen in print from these people, explicit insistance that getting to the "good place" has absolutely nothing to do with how you have lived, only with whether you have "accepted" Jesus according to fundamentalist doctrine. That form of doctrine developed long, perhaps centuries, before a "Christian Right" reared it's head with anything like the scale and power we've seen in recent decades. But I'm thinking that that doctrine may be in great part responsible for enabling the development of the "Christian" right as we're seeing it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Bill D Date: 19 Oct 12 - 11:18 AM Look at it this way, Little Hawk.... the only reason to issue commandments is because we have free will. If we had no choices, and could NOT disobey, they would be superfluous. Thus, the point of commandments IS that they be obeyed. It is merely a semantic exercise to remind people they do have the 'ability' to disobey. Labeling the 10 Commandments as 'suggestions'... even strong ones... gives a false sense of arbitrariness to Christians. This all very much in keeping with frogprince's experience and analysis of the inflexibility he found in fundamentalist doctrines. Now... of course, the fundamentalists are caught everyday playing rhetorical games with their own seemingly inflexible rules, which is a major reason *I* repeat regularly the logical reminder: "From false premises, anything follows." --- that is, 'If you don't have absolute truth to begin with, you can Gerrymander things to get any result and set of rules... and exceptions.. you wish!' |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Oct 12 - 07:03 PM Well put, Bill! You make your point in a most persuasive and sensible manner. I personally don't think that God (as I define it: the power of life itself) commands anything...but that it's set up in such a way as to enable all things that are possible within the physical limitations provided...and that that allows complete use of our free will, obviously...contingent on dealing with the results of such use of free will. To that situation then add the possibility of Love (in the larger sense, not just romance) and a great deal becomes possible. (One who cares about others as much as about self has achieved a greater than usual measure of love. One who sees others AS self has attained something that could be called enlightenment.) But, then...I'm not a fundamentalist! ;-) I agree that "From false premises, anything follows." And I agree that no one has the absolute truth in its entirety, though some are certainly inclined to act as if they did. (No one knows for sure if all his premises are correct...) The main problem with fundamentalists is...they act as if they had absolute certainty of all their premises. They fear ambiguity! And so do some of their most determined and vociferous opponents. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Bill D Date: 19 Oct 12 - 09:01 PM And YOU also make persuasive points, LH, showing a lot of thought on matters.... but as always, I feel too much broad generalizations in some of your opinions. (what? again? ☺) *I* don't think there is a personal 'god' who issues commands either... but many/most Christians do! Thus, to them the 'commandments' ARE more than suggestions, and rhetorically re-categorizing them to fit a 'more enlightened' scheme is interesting, but loses something. There is also the problem that biologists are discovering that many aspects of our 'mind', as well as our general physical characteristics, are genetically coded.... even aspects of 'liberal' and 'conservative' may be built in!... which means, perhaps...*wry smile*.. that you & I may be designed to have these different approaches! Boggles the... ummmm... |
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Subject: RE: BS: A fundamentalist parable From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Oct 12 - 09:34 PM I don't know how often I've heard right-wingers say, "He's so liberal, he thinks the Ten Commandments are the Ten Suggestions." I hear that quip about as often as I hear the divisive conservative buzzword "cafeteria Catholic" (about liberal Catholics who choose not to buy into the "pro-life" bandwagon with all its Republican baggage - somehow, it doesn't apply to conservatives who reject social justice teachings). The last six or seven of the Ten Commandments (depending on your numbering system) are common-sense moral principles that are accepted by almost everybody - prohibitions against killing, lying, cheating on your spouse, and stealing. The first few commandments apply only to people who believe in God, but again they're generally accepted by all believers. So, the term "Ten Suggestions" gets me mad, because it's usually some right-winger saying I don't belong because I don't buy his/her judgmental form of Christianity. Every once in a while, I'm tempted to respond with, "Everybody accepts the Ten Commandments, motherfucker, so what are you talking about?" I think that might get their attention, but somehow I don't think it would go over very well. -Joe- |
