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BS: Feline behavior question
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Subject: BS: Feline behavior question From: Becca72 Date: 04 Jan 12 - 09:33 AM Sorry if this is a repeat to an older thread, but I couldn't find anything. I've had cats most of my life but this new behavior is concerning me. My niece and her 70lb dog moved in with my three cats and me about 8 weeks ago. One of the cats, Sheldon, has not adjusted well at all. He went from only going after the dog when she got near him to actively seeking her out to attack...and within the past 3-4 days he has started going after my niece's feet/ankles when she walks by. He hisses and spits and makes all kinds of noise. I understand why he's doing it (stress and anxiety) but what I need to figure out is how to get him to stop. He has never been an agressive cat until this point (almost 6 years old and neutered). When Meghan is just sitting he'll come over and want to be petted but when she goes on the move look out! The dog cannot even fart without him flying off the handle. Any suggestions? I feel bad for him because his home has been invaded, but no one is going anywhere in the near future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Ed T Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:05 AM My experience is some cats have difficult dealing with change in thei environment, especially if they are the dominant one. Normally this settles down, once the change becomes normalized (the animals have to work out the new relationship, which they eventually will). It may take a while for the cat and dog to work out which one is dominant? I have noticed that when I take my two cats to the vet, they hiss at each other for awhile when we return home. I attribute this to a delayed reaction to stress, being taken to unfamiliar areas. But, I suspect they also are reacting to a different smell they each temporarily have taken on from being at the vets? Possibly your daughter is touching the dog, and the cat smells the dogs scent? When I took in my last cat, which is now the dominant one, he would hiss at me if I came up to him suddenly, or even if I moved or touched him. I dealt with this by giving him alot of attention to establish trust. Then, later, if he hissed at me when I disturbed him (he was just being cranky), I would put him in another room and close the door for punishment (time out)and used a loud voice to scold him. When I shortly later (it does not take long, just a few minutes) opened the door I first ignored him when he came out, until he approached me (seems like he is sucking up) and I would rub him and talk to him in an affectionate voice as a reward. He does not hiss at me for any reason,any more and is quite affectionate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Jack Campin Date: 04 Jan 12 - 11:34 AM Antidepressants can help in this situation. But it seems pretty cruel to dope up a cat because you've made his life intolerable. Better that either he or the dog gets rehomed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Becca72 Date: 04 Jan 12 - 11:38 AM Neither of those is an option, Jack |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: SINSULL Date: 04 Jan 12 - 11:44 AM Poor kitty is not happy. Any way to keep the dog in a separate room at times so that the cat can get individual attention from both you and Meghan? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 04 Jan 12 - 11:44 AM There is a product called Feliwell, a diffuser you plug into the mains. It gives off calming, odourless(to us) pheromones and helps settle cats. I'm in UK, but there must be a similar diffuser product in USA if you live there. Time will help. It's important not to smack or shake, or get angry (hard, I know) or things will escalate. If attacked by any cat for any reason, one should try not to react at all. (very hard!) Staying still and making chirrup noises will prevent provoking things further. I hope Meghan can try to do that, but it takes courage!. You must find this all very upsetting, I feel for you. I've had cats for over sixty years, and we all love them so much don't we? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Becca72 Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:00 PM Mary - the dog isn't allowed in the back half of the apartment - that is 'cats only' territory. I think the trick will be to get Meghan to spend alone time with them in the safe zone...up until now they have only had me to themselves. Eliza - someone via PM suggested Feliway diffuser. I have a small bottle of the spray variety but I think the diffuser is worth a try for lasting effect. I also have to remind my niece not to get angry with him; it's not his fault, after all, that they invaded his turf. He doesn't seem to be hurting her when he goes for her legs, at least not enough to make her react with pain or fear. I don't think he really means it, he just doesn't know what else to do. I love him dearly and just want to get him through this adjustment. I haven't owned a dog and a cat at the same time since childhood. Am I expecting too much to think 8 weeks should be enough time for things to get better? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Jack Campin Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:12 PM Feliway can help, but it's more effective in reducing aggression between cats. It's much more expensive than antidepressants. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: JohnInKansas Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:36 PM I was told once, long ago, that cases in which small animals fail to accept each other can sometimes be helped by giving both animals a bath (separately and privately, of course) so that their respective odors are changed slightly. With visual and other cues already established, the change - or temporary reduction - in "personal smells" permits the two to re-extablish their "opinions" of each other. I must say that I've never had occasion to try this out. The critters that elicited the advice belonged to someone else, who never reported whether it was tried; and we haven't had a need with any of our little ones. Most dogs I've known tolerate bathing fairly well, but the response from cats is variable. We have had cats that we bathed regularly while living in a place where fleas were frequently "imported" from external sources over which we had no control, and they learned to enjoy it; but a first-time experience can be stressful for some cats - and hazardous to the "attendants." The advice wasn't specific as to whether the same soap should be used on both, to make them smell alike, or whether the intent was just to "change each of them" to something different. Since most "pet shampoos" include other treatments, and dog and cat "flea soaps" especially should not be used cross-species, perhaps a simple baby shampoo or similar would be best for both if you consider an experiment with the idea. A more commonly recommended procedure is to give each animal its own space for a while. After each has had time to "establish a presence," in this case you would let the cat into the dog's space after temporarily removing the dog, to let the cat sense "dog has been here" for a few hours, before making a new attempt to introduce the animals to each other. I have heard claims that this has been successful, but with many living arrangements the difficulties of arranging the separations don't permit effective use of the method, so failures are also fairly common. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Bettynh Date: 04 Jan 12 - 01:02 PM The guy on My Cat from Hell frequently solves this sort of problem by giving the cat new, dominant, territory with stepped shelves to a space with a view. With three cats to accomodate, they might become another area of contention, but it'd be worth a try. A wide shelf across a window (behind a curtain?) would be an ideal hideout since it'd be safe and also alternate entertainment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Jan 12 - 01:08 PM Let me preface this by saying that I am talking about a well loved cat who live more than 13 year, by all indications, happily, after these events occurred. Perhaps the cat just needs to learn that its behavior is dangerous to its self. I have often seen a mother cat whack a misbehaving kitten. Our cat used to claw my eyelids while I was sleeping. No doubt this was aggressive play behavior. But it obviously could not be tolerated. One night I waited, batting my eyes until she emerged from the side of the bed and whacked her against the wall (six inches away) with the back of my hand. If Meghan were to walk through the attack zone with a spray bottle of water and spray Sheldon in the face with water as he sprang to attack. I would wager that after a time or two there would be no more attacks. Likewise a similar strategy could be used to protect the dog. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Becca72 Date: 04 Jan 12 - 01:17 PM Jack, I did get out the spray bottle last night - I'll have her try it. It's funny, though. When he is getting ready to go after the dog all I have to do is put my hand down in front of him and say "uh-uh" and he stops. No yelling and no hitting necessary. I want to see if he will react the same way if Meghan does that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Jan 12 - 02:33 PM I'd recommend Feliway. It costs about $70 for a six-pack at Amazon, and each bottle lasts a month. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Jan 12 - 02:41 PM Cats live in cubic yards while dogs and peeps tend to live in square yards. Cat needs third dimension to rule-- height. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: gnu Date: 04 Jan 12 - 02:51 PM Nasty story... I started seeing the ex. Her female cat didn't care for me being in the apt, apparently. I was half asleep one early morn having a cuppa while sitting sideways at the table reading the newspaper. The cat sank it's claws into my leg just above the knee. I "reacted", and I am, was, quick as a cat. I cuffed her so hard with my open hand that her head bounced off the floor. She peeled gravel and went straight under the bed. I apologized to the ex and told her she should get the cat from under the bed and we'd take her to the vet to make sure she was okay. I was very concerned. She said there was no way she was gonna try to get the cat from under the bed until I had left. I asked her to call me later. The cat was fine. We became friends. I mean the cat and I became friends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Jan 12 - 03:48 PM Cats are tough. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: gnu Date: 04 Jan 12 - 04:06 PM Tough indeed. And I trained her. She might get pissed at me when I would tell her to do someting but she would do it. Quite smart, I thought. I mean the cat, of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: gnu Date: 04 Jan 12 - 04:42 PM In case you never saw it. One of my all time NFB favs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: gnu Date: 04 Jan 12 - 04:44 PM That link won't work for me so here's another. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:10 PM Thoughts for Becca: Do you have a yard? Let the dog stay outside Does the dog get exercise? A tired dog is less frightening Can you make a den for Sheldon? A cardboard box on a high piece of furniture, for example. How many cat boxes do you have? Is the dog getting between Sheldon and his box? That would be a real stressor Meanwhile, you have my sympathy. I applaud you for helping your niece, but I know I personally wouldn't want 70 pounds of dog in my little home. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: ranger1 Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:36 PM Leeneia, even if she did have a yard, leaving a dog outside in the middle of winter in Maine is not an option. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: gnu Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:42 PM r1... ESPECIALLY if he isn't neutered! >;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 04 Jan 12 - 11:19 PM Now how was I supposed to know she lives in Maine? Does it ever get mild there? Couldn't the dog go out for an hour? Get it a doghouse? A heated doghouse? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 05 Jan 12 - 09:13 AM I don't believe that 'Cats are tough'. Physically, their bones are delicate and fragile, they can easily fracture. Their agility makes folk believe they're super-powerful, but you must handle a cat with care. Also, the cats I've owned (dozens over the sixty years) have mostly been easily offended, scared, needy and nervous. They need understanding and affection, reassurance and gentleness. You should never ever thump, smack or throw a cat, you could hurt it internally or break a bone etc. also frighten it terribly. Actually, on reflection, I wouldn't say that ANY of the types of lovely animals that share our lives are 'tough'. They're usually much smaller than us and vulnerable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: maeve Date: 05 Jan 12 - 09:19 AM How is it going, Becca? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: SINSULL Date: 05 Jan 12 - 10:27 AM I have had my share of "depressed" or "moody" kitties. No fun. Any progress Becca? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Becca72 Date: 05 Jan 12 - 11:30 AM Last night was encouraging. My niece and I talked about it and she is going to try my tactic of simply putting a hand down and saying "uh-uh" or "no" to get him to stop with the dog. He started to go for the dog and I picked him up and talked to him calmly and gently and stroked his head and he snapped right out of it. Meghan is going to try that, too but I asked her to be careful the first couple of times because he obviously doesn't trust her as much as he trusts me. We have also physically blocked off the livingroom from the rest of the apartment so I know for sure that while we're gone the dog isn't sneaking back there and harrassing them. I have 2 litter boxes and they are both in this back area so the dog definitely can't keep them away from it. Unfortunately I don't have a yard as I live in an apartment on a busy street but we take the dog out for short walks to do her business several times a day. My niece also spends weekends at her boyfriend's house so they get a break from the dog for a couple of days a week. I have always kept boxes around the house for them to hide in and the dog is absolutely NOT allowed on my bed as this is a most favorite napping spot for all three cats. I had a small spray bottle of Feliway that is almost empty but I tried it and it seems to have help so I'll be going out to purchase a diffuser next payday. All in all, things are looking up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 05 Jan 12 - 11:52 AM Sounds good, Becca, except for one thing. Do not, do not encourage your niece to extend a hand down to an upset, fighting cat. She should grab a pillow and put that between the animals. I have a friend who thrust an arm between two fighting cats (her own pets) and one of them attacked her arm. The result was a serious injury (he had torn a nerve) and a bad infection. There ae books, etc, which will tell you the same thing. Not a hand, a pillow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Becca72 Date: 05 Jan 12 - 12:11 PM Leeneia - just to clarify...I'm talking about putting a hand down BEFORE the fighting starts. He is very clear when he's getting ramped up to start trouble. I put my hand out before he goes for the dog and have encouraged my niece to try the same thing. I have found that my hand and some sort of verbal queue snaps him out of "attack mode" and the fight doesn't happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: gnu Date: 05 Jan 12 - 02:36 PM The slight progress sounds encouraging. But, IMO, Meghan picking up the cat for TLC ain't a good idea just yet. You posted earlier that he has attacked her. And, sorry to seem... I can't think of the proper word... but, rewarding a cat with affection for bad behaviour COULD encourage that behaviour. Just something to think about. Thanks for the update and thanks to all for the posts. I am finding this quite educational. A similar situation occured with me years ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Becca72 Date: 05 Jan 12 - 03:34 PM Gnu, I did warn her about picking him up when he's like this because she seems to be part of the problem. In talking to her, though, she told me that he often comes and sleeps with her in the middle of the night with the dog a short distance away (she's on the futon and the dog is on the couch a couple of feet away) which I didn't realize he was doing, so he has some positive feelings about my niece at least. The difficult part is that dogs and cats don't process information the same way and they don't have the same social structure so we're trying to figure out what works for everyone and hoping we get it right. The dog is extremely submissive (which is a positive for me) and this particular cat is NOT the alpha of my group. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: gnu Date: 05 Jan 12 - 03:52 PM Gee... HERE I go again. The cat may be simply trying to piss off the dog by getting on her bed. Now, it COULD be he is trying to be friendly to her, but that just don't add up in my mind at this point. Has she tried petting the cat when he does this? Now, THAT might piss off the dog but I don't think the dog would attack the cat over it as long as she makes sure the dog is reassured of her committment to him through the day. Not TOOOO much petting, just a wee wee bit and no vocalization. I am looking forward to more comments on this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Becca72 Date: 05 Jan 12 - 05:01 PM The dog is asleep and uninterested when the cat is getting up on the futon with my niece - he actually seems to be acting like a normal cat at these times. There are times during the day/evening when the cat will sit with my niece or allow her to pet him while he's walking by or whatever - it's just from time to time over the past 3-4 days that he has taken a swipe at her when she walks by. She did mention last night that he only seems to do it if she's wearing a certain pair of sweatpants she often wears to bed. My half cocked (watch it!) theory is because they are wide legged pants that swing and he may think the dog is coming around behind her when it is actually the movement of the pants... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: katlaughing Date: 05 Jan 12 - 06:49 PM This is a tough one. I've had dogs and cats all of my life. Usually this kind of problem, for me, has been between two cats. One of the very first times I posted on Mudcat was about our dog Merlee who, when we first got him, when after my Siamese male and had him in his jaws before I could get to him. There is an old thread about it. The dog learned that when I said, "No kitty!" he'd better be good. I put a Velcro muzzle on him for a few days after that happened and told him to go to bed which was a kennel. I never had any problems after that. That's not really something I would recommend for a cat of course and it sounds as though you've done a lot already. I would reiterate getting the cats a climbing tree or shelves or anything like that that they can get up on and looked down at the dog which cats love to do. The other thing is most vets I've been to and doctors Foster and Smith online all recommend one litter box per cat plus an extra box. As an owner of, at one time eight cats, I can tell you that seems to be very important even though I never had nine litter boxes! I don't believe in slapping or anything like that. If a cat is angry it is probably afraid; not the best of times to try to pick one up, but I don't think calming is any kind of reward for bad behavior. If your niece wears those pants only while she's in bed, perhaps they don't have as much dog scent on them? I would see his coming in to sleep on her bed near the dog as his way of being curious and feeling safe about checking things out. Eight weeks does seem like a long time but, cats don't like change and this is been a major one. In my experience with cats, especially, sometimes it just comes down to a truce of sorts with small skirmishes now and then. I think the dogs I've always had new from the moment they came in the house, it was a "cat house" and they would toe the line. I wish you and your niece and the critters all the best and hope that it will work out. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: katlaughing Date: 05 Jan 12 - 07:30 PM Okay, so Dragon Speaking misunderstood me.**bg** dogs...KNEW And to clarify:...I don't think calming is any kind of reward for bad behavior. I mean I think calming is good for them, it is a reassurance, not a reward. And, I see I missed the point with the pants. Your theory sounds as good as any!LOL! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: gnu Date: 05 Jan 12 - 07:51 PM "I don't think calming is any kind of reward for bad behavior." I most certainly disagree. Cat behaves poorly and gets comfort? Seems obvious to me. Child screams and gets a cookie... what's the difference? If bad behaviour is rewarded, it is encouraged. Now, I am not getting into a pissing contest over this, I just think you are wrong. My opinion. Give the cat a cookie and see if it works in the long run. I'd like to know how it works out. But, I wouldn't do it. Rewarding bad behaviour begets future bad behaviour, I M O. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Jack Campin Date: 05 Jan 12 - 08:14 PM Reward and punishment just doesn't work in a useful way with cats, unless you can make an unpleasant consequence follow the unwanted behaviour within a second or so (like splatting it with a Super Soaker). Calming and reassurance is always a good idea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: gnu Date: 05 Jan 12 - 09:05 PM Reward and punishment doesn't work with cats? Well, fire them out the door if you think they are that stunned.... BTW, IMO, they are not that stunned. If any animal cannot be trained by a human to be civil it is the fact that one of them is stunned as me arse or mentally incompetent. I have seen both. In either case, it's sad. I have friends who should never be allowed to own a pet. Mind you, not very good friends. Makes me sad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: katlaughing Date: 05 Jan 12 - 09:22 PM I agree, Jack Campin. And, gnudarlin'...my little darlings are very well-behaved. I have given one a light swat on the nose once or twice, but as Jack mentions, it was within seconds after he'd done something naughty. I will also grab their paw and gently squeeze if they get too free with their claws whilst "making biscuits" but that is quite different from the kind of punishment you are speaking of, from what I can tell. (No pissing here, either, just different opinion.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: GUEST,Patsy Date: 06 Jan 12 - 06:55 AM Seeing it from a cat's point of view it must be a bit off putting to come face to face with a strange full grown tail-wagging dog. In my case my oldest cat was introduced to my dog as a puppy and welcomed her in by licking her tummy and face while she slept, I guessed at the time it must have been the cat's way of bonding with her. Mind you I think the dog might have freaked out if she had woke up to see the cat standing over her! I was ready to intervene if it went wrong but it turned out to be the best thing I could have done. The funny thing is if someone visited with a dog that was similar in size or character to Bonnie the cat might have arched slightly at first but as soon as she could see that all was well that would be that or alternatively just go off and doze elsewhere, she used to do the same with visitors with small children she would remove herself from the situation rather than any aggro which I thought was a smart thing to do. We had some friends on the otherhand that came visit with a large bounding black Labrador, the cat hated it on sight she would have attacked it just because of the threatening size so the simplest thing was to put her in another room. In her case I couldn't chastise her because she probably thought she was protecting Bonnie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Becca72 Date: 06 Jan 12 - 09:11 AM Ok, Gnu so would you punish said child for crying when taken to see Santa Claus or frightened by loud fireworks? The cat is reacting out of fear, not just being a douchebag. By picking him up I'm trying to calm him, not reward him. In fact, this particular cat does not usually enjoy being picked up (he prefers it to be his idea to sit with anyone) but has reacted very positively when I've picked him up in this situation. Also, I have several places for the cats to retreat up high; these have always been there - not just since the dog came in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: gnu Date: 06 Jan 12 - 04:01 PM I see your points. I stand corrected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Donuel Date: 06 Jan 12 - 04:18 PM Having exclusive space/dimensions are good responses. Distraction is worth a try. Do you have a CD of bird calls or other enviorments? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Jack Campin Date: 06 Jan 12 - 06:04 PM God NO!!! I tried a CD of birdcalls on my lot once. A British newspaper had a freebie 4-CD set of the calls of the birds of Britain, in alphabetical order. So I started with A. We have six cats - they all went berserk running backwards and forwards around the house and searching under the furniture trying to find where lunch was hiding, except for one who stood on her hind legs on the back of an armchair like a meerkat with her head swivelling from side to side, wondering why she couldn't see anything. I took the CD off pronto, so I didn't get to find out whether birds beginning with B were less tasty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: LadyJean Date: 07 Jan 12 - 12:07 AM There's a web site called kittiefairies.com that offers Feliway cheap. I don't know what their shipping charges are. But their prices are good. Check out their catnip toys too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: katlaughing Date: 07 Jan 12 - 10:47 AM LOL, Jack. We call our front picture window "cat tv" as they can sit on a shelf put there for them (and houseplants) where they can sit and watch the birds at our feeders all day. They love it and make a not so subtle demand for the blinds to be opened first thing in the morning, after they've had their "fishie" breakfast, of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Feline behavior question From: Becca72 Date: 09 Jan 12 - 09:40 AM Thanks for the website, LadyJean. I'll definitely check it out. Things have been a bit calmer of late with only a scuffle or two over the weekend. |
