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BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison)
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Subject: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Bert Date: 22 Dec 11 - 06:23 PM First let us define our words because they mean different things in different countries. In The US, Jail is a short term confinement place where you go while awaiting trail or sentence. Prison is where you go after you have been sentenced. So I think I should have titled the thread 'Alternatives to Prison'. Here is one suggestion. The Government set aside a 'fund' for restitution to victims. This money would be saved from not having to put criminals in prison. Instead of sentencing criminals to prison terms, sentence them to have to pay full restitution to their victims. The criminals can then get a loan from 'the fund' at current mortgage rates and pay that loan back over 30 to 50 years, during which time they would be under the supervision of a probation officer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,999 Date: 22 Dec 11 - 07:35 PM Bert, I think it would be good to define what types of crimes the person is jailed or imprisoned for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,mg Date: 22 Dec 11 - 07:59 PM I am certainly for letting as many people out of prison as possible, substituting severe lack of privacy on the outside, with constant monitoring, skype, etc. For those who are unsafe to let loose, don't let them loose. Have spartan dormitories for people released, with some staying there in mandatory terms for a while as they reach certain goals. Some just need housing to be released. Have workshops where they make something useful, like meals or solar panels if they can not find work, which of course many can not. Do not let the males act as predators on females, which is often the case..if they have a male dormitory, they do not need to latch on to sometimes not too intelligent women and either leach off them or abuse them...well, don't let the females abuse or leach either. Have them earn GEDs, get vocational training etc. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Bert Date: 22 Dec 11 - 08:33 PM You are right 999 but perhaps that is a different issue. Why not start a new thread? I will have plenty to say about it. mg, In many ways most people who are in prison shouldn't be there. It does no good. Except as you say, for people who are unsafe to be let out. Education is certainly a good thing but there must be checks and balances installed to prevent the term education being warped into brain washing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Bobert Date: 22 Dec 11 - 08:39 PM Most 1st time offenders will get probation and "restitution"... But I agree, we incarcerate way too many folks... If there isn't a victim then there shouldn't be any time... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Rapparee Date: 22 Dec 11 - 09:26 PM no, bobert? isn't someone who is forced to prostitute herself [for economic or drug addiction or to support a pimp or whatever] a victim just as much as someone beaten and robbed? isn't a drug addict a victim? IS there such a thing as a victimless crime? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Columbo Date: 22 Dec 11 - 09:36 PM Ya do da crime Ya does da time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: gnu Date: 22 Dec 11 - 09:41 PM Now, this is a great thread. In just a few posts, some very thought provoking ideas have been raised for discussion. I feel very upbeat about this kinda discussion and I am very much looking forward to more of the same. I know that doesn't contribute to the discussion at hand but I just wanted to say... what I said... bravo! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Bobert Date: 22 Dec 11 - 09:59 PM Yeah, Rap... In your case there is a victim: the prostitute... Bust the pimp!!! B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,999 Date: 22 Dec 11 - 10:07 PM Cool by me, Bert. A Statement of Principia 1) The area has to contain prisoners and be secure. That is, even the thought of walking off means that yer on yer own in Siberia and even Louis L'Amour ain't gonna get choo out unless it's your time to leave. 2) The state selects and mandates the parole officers who report to finance and government (in essence, the state). 3) Unless this man lied, why would we want this? It still sounds like a prison to me. So maybe we have to rethink what we are trying to do with prisons? I'm slow but steady. Eventually, I catch up. Good question, btw. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Rapparee Date: 22 Dec 11 - 10:24 PM bobert, even if there is no pimp, she's still a victim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Dec 11 - 01:33 AM This has become a fascinating subject to me. A friend of mine is employed by PICO as a community organizer, and it's his job to establish local organizing committees in every church in the county. Each committee is supposed to do one-on-one interviews with members of the community, and identify community needs that should be addressed. Our Catholic parish is on the road that jail releasees walk to get to the main highway and the business district. Often, releasees cannot walk the half mile to the highway without committing another crime. Unless there's a friend or family member to pick them up upon release, they leave jail without food, clothing, money, transportation, or the ability to make a telephone call. They're released at all hours, but most often at night because that's when the jail has staff time available for processing releases. So, our committee has targeted the first 24 hours after an inmate is released, attempting to ensure that the person has at least what he needs to survive his first day of freedom. Right now, we're in the process of interviewing anyone and everyone who is involved in the issue - jail personnel, the sheriff and district attorney and public defender, bail bondsmen, county supervisors and administrative personnel, and businesses along our road that are affected by jail releasees. We're hoping to station a van outside the jail for 24 hours, to interview people as they're released from jail. We're in a county that is politically conservative, but we've had a surprisingly favorable response from many county officials and politicians. The jail sees no problem, and sees no obligation to prisoners other than to house and feed them until their time is up, and then kick them out into homelessness. One county supervisor says you can deal with crime with a carrot or with a stick, and our county prefers to use a stick. One of the more interesting people we talked with, is the administrative officer for the Board of Supervisors, who holds a master's degree in criminal justice. She says that ten percent of criminals are hopeless, and should be kept in jail as economically as possible. Another ten percent made a one-time mistake and will never commit a crime again, so there's no use spending much money incarcerating them or giving them treatment. The remaining eighty percent can go either way, and may be able to turn their lives around if they are given encouragement and opportunity - those are the ones we should spend money on, because we can save a lot of money if we break them out of the cycle of crime and incarceration. In our county, we have one alternative sentencing program that has been very effective, a drug court. Instead of being sent to jail, convicts are sentenced to strict supervision and treatment for up to three years, at about half the cost of a jail sentence. The convict may have to appear in court as often as once a week to report on progress, and they are sent straight to jail if they fail to comply with their treatment program. The judge who operates this program is described as "tough, but with a heart of gold." The program has a success rate of 40 to 60%. In contrast, only 10% of releasees from our jail can stay out of jail for three months after release. We interviewed a man who had run a release planning program, "Project Peace of Mind," in the jail for about a year, until the project lost funding. On intake, jailers would interview new inmates and determine what needs the prisoner would have upon release. If the inmate would end up homeless or in need of transportation or drug or alcohol treatment, the inmate would be referred to an employee of the project who would make arrangements. The cost of the program was $20 to $500 per inmate, and it was very effective. The correctional system in California is currently going through a process called "realignment," to send non-violent convicts with short sentences to jails in their home areas, instead of sending them to prison. This is supposed to reduce overcrowding in the prisons and reduce costs, since low-risk prisoners don't need the high security of a state prison. If done without planning, this program could end up merely moving the problem of overcrowding to county jails; but the idea is to provide alternative sentencing to inmates with good potential, thus breaking the cycle of crime. I was surprised to hear our own county sheriff say that if realignment is going to work, we have to start planning for an inmate's release the day he enters jail. Our sheriff is a consummate politician who is very good at telling people what they want to hear, so I'm not convinced that he means what he says - nonetheless, he said it. A keystone of this realignment program is something called "evidence-based sentencing" - using proven methods to deal with people who have committed crimes, tailoring the sentence to the needs and potential of the convict. Another term I hear a lot is "reconstructive justice," which deals with both criminals and their victims in an attempt to repair the damage done by crime. This is not "slap-on-the-wrist" kind of stuff - it's meant to deal with criminals strictly, but constructively. I don't know if our efforts will be effective in the long run, but there is evidence that we're getting some people worried. We got a call out of the blue from the jail commander this week, asking us to come back and discuss things further. We're willing to do what we can to help, but we think that justice demands that the jail be obliged to provide releasees with at least a minimal amount of food, clothing, transportation, money, and communication upon release. Two of the three county supervisors we've interviewed agree with us that at the very least, the jail should release inmates during daylight hours - for both public safety and the safety and welfare of the releasees. We're also really enjoying working on this project. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Dec 11 - 04:11 AM The UK does not distinguish the term gaol (US jail) from prison. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 23 Dec 11 - 09:26 AM Having visited male inmates for many years in Category 'C' and 'B' UK Prisons, ( Cat 'B' being for more serious crimes) I learned a lot. Many are actually mentally ill or with serious personality disorders. They shouldn't be in prison but 'units' for psychiatric help and support. Many too are the product of atrocious 'parenting' and can hardly be blamed for their criminal tendencies. A huge proportion are drug addicts and commit crime to fund a voracious habit. If they were supplied with heroin etc by the State under controlled conditions, some would steal no longer and their dealers would have to find another way to make illegal dosh. Having gradually learnt all this, I still see that society needs protecting against criminals, and no-one seems to know what alternatives to loss of liberty there might be. Work opportunities inside prison are absolutely fraught with danger. Inmates will nick anything (tools, metal, wood etc) to make a weapon, and they will also attack eachother, sometimes fatally, if allowed to attend any activity in groups, even Chapel. It should also be noted that there are woefully few Prison Officers to control large numbers of inmates. Security is paramount, any 'rehabilitation' comes a very poor second. I really do not know the answer, and the present situation is dire, to say the least. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 23 Dec 11 - 09:31 AM Joe, I was most interested in your work in this field. Here in UK, a prisoner is given all clothing needed if he has none on release, and rail tickets to his home patch, plus a small fund to tide him over. His Probation Officer will liaise with him after release and try to find a Probation Hostel place if he has no home to go to. Sadly, most of those inmates I had contact with re-offended soon afterwards. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Bluesman Date: 23 Dec 11 - 10:28 AM The removal of ones liberty will most likely remain the best deterrent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Bill D Date: 23 Dec 11 - 11:11 AM Bluesman... that simply has not been shown in many studies. A huge number of 'crimes' are committed with NO idea of prison, and even after serving prison time, many repeat similar 'crimes'....often because they have no better ideas, or because they flatly don't care. In prison, they are at least fed and have a place to sleep. We need ways to help them CARE and we need to seriously debate what 'crimes' should need prison. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Bluesman Date: 23 Dec 11 - 11:27 AM You have a valid point there Bill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Musket Date: 23 Dec 11 - 11:50 AM I am involved in regulation of certain aspects of prison regimes these days. To be honest, the jury is out with regard to any view I have on alternatives. I speak with inmates regularly and the only two conclusions I have are fairly obvious ones anyway; 1. Retribution through incarceration seems to be more important than "danger to society" or put another way, we are not being innovative enough and prison sentences are seen as the only option sometimes. Whether this is the fault of politicians or the judiciary, I don't really know. 2. A sizeable percentage of prisoners are there because they have been let down by mental health services. Not the hard working harassed individuals working in that area, but the budgets and systems. it isn't hard to get into the vicious circle but almost impossible to break out of it. Alternatives? I reckon the largest hurdle is the flog 'em brigade of newspapers, rather than the merits of the actual ideas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Bert Date: 23 Dec 11 - 07:07 PM Eliza, You say ...If they were supplied with heroin etc by the State under controlled conditions... They tried that in Liverpool and it was a great success but for some reason they discontinued it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 23 Dec 11 - 10:04 PM A criminal life often begins in the teens or earlier. Young offenders are released into parents custody in revolving door cycles. Curfews and court orders are often ignored and it goes on and on with their crimes growing more serious at each step. If a parent is trying to control and correct their kid I have some empathy but if they don't give a shit that their little one is out running the streets all night they should be held criminally and financially responsible for any violation of the undertaking. (This includes absentee parents in single parent families) Legitimate mental problems should be properly diagnosed and treated in first offenders. Determine who can be saved and re-habilitated at the earliest point and if parents refuse to co-operate removal from an abusive home may be necessary. Family poverty is a leading factor in kids not finding an alternative to crime and that is a crime in itself. Let no child go hungry or be deprived of chances for a decent education. This will only help some but it will weed out those who can be saved from a life of crime. Those who refuse help should be put on a progressive program when they become an adult. The first level prison being the most open where rehabitation is still encouraged, drugs and alcohol testing is in place and visits including those of a conjugal nature offered as reward for good behavior, and also some exposure to the outside world and work programs to train inmates for their future. Parole would be allowed for non violent crimes as early as practicable. For those who fail to abide by the provisions of the previous level or for more serious crimes level two would be much tougher and secure. Strict rules and a very regimented life but a thread of hope for those inmates who wish to re-habilitate would be to revert to level one through good behavior. No parole or early release from here except by going through the first level. The third level would be for the most serious crimes and that would be strictly a place of incarceration in high security for the rest of their lives with no visits except legal representatives. Troublemakers would risk spending their days in spartan isolation. All but the very worst offences should maintain a hope of reverting to level two. I society first tried to eliminate poverty the financial savings in the long run would reduce the need for prisons. Perhaps the government bean counters should stand guilty for a crime against humanity as well! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 24 Dec 11 - 02:39 PM Bert, you're right, and also in Holland. I watched a TV programme some time ago, where 100 heroin addicts were given their dose twice a day, and most were found paid work. After a considerable time, they were all stable, on their 'dose', living normal lives. Apparently, so my doc. sister tells me, one can be on a maintenance dose of heroin for years and suffer no ill effects. It seems a possible way forward with these folk. Sandy, the men I had contact with in prison had indeed suffered poverty, but not physical poverty, spiritual and emotional poverty. They were, in short, what I call The Unloved. They were emotionally damaged, profoundly sad and angry inside. They were in pain and were full of resentment and aggression, due I think to the lack of love from their early days. I sincerely pitied them, but also was furious at the dreadful things they'd done. Do you think intense therapy might save some of them? It's easy to be cynical and dismissive, but I did feel compassion, they were a pitiable bunch! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Bluesman Date: 24 Dec 11 - 03:51 PM An alternative would be to eat Christmas dinner at my daughters house. Burnt offerings on the menu as always. Dreading tomorrow ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Ed T Date: 24 Dec 11 - 04:27 PM There are likely many aspects to crime. A few come to mind: 1) looking at the source of crime, and initiating programs to combat the causes. 2)Persuing different approaches to deal with rehabilitation and support of those who comit crime, in jail and when they are released. 3)Avenues to put right (as much as it can be) the wrong that was comitted, including dealing with those impacted. 4)Protecting society and citizens from those comitting crimes, and those most likely to do so again. 5)Alternative approaches to deal with individuals whose mental or social illnes puts them at hig risk to comit crime. 6) Re-evaluate what has historically been viewed as a crime (such as prostitution), but may not be crime. L look at alternative approaches to separate aspects of these that could harm or cause ill to society of individuals. 7) Conduct more research on what causes crime, and if some activitiers that we view as crime (such as soft drugs)lead to greater crime, if not actioned. 8) Review the legal system and it's approach to crime, and the law enforcement syatem and it's approach to crime. 9)Review the various crimes, with a goal of creating a hierarchy of harmful crimes that impact society and individuals and approaches to each. 10) Co-orepate internationally on increased research on crime and the impact of alternative approaches. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Dani Date: 24 Dec 11 - 04:35 PM Glad to see this topic introduced among such thoughtful minds. I have been working for many years with prisoners pre- and post-release, and I have lots of options, as you might imagine. A group I work with has produced a documentary on the subject, called Against The Tide. I welcome you all to check it out, buy it if you can, ask me if you need to borrow it. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Against-the-Tide-A-Film-About-Ex-Inmates-Reentering-Life-The-Documentary/118375618173766 Also, I would introduce to the mix a book I recently read called "In Defense of Flogging" Extremely thought-provoking, to say the least. Dani |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Dani Date: 24 Dec 11 - 04:35 PM Well, I suppose I have options, too, but I meant to say "opinions". Blame the Christmas brew : ) Dani |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Bluesman Date: 24 Dec 11 - 04:46 PM When I was serving in Ulster, we went into the H Blocks of the Maze prison to remove two devices the prisoners had made. It was unbelievable, the prisoners ran the place. Staff spent as little time as possible on the wings. The walls of the prison were covered in murals depicting scenes of events of Irish history. One officer told me, on occasions they had to ask permission from the governor to enter the wings. It was a very scary place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: gnu Date: 24 Dec 11 - 04:52 PM Dani... where can I view the vid? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 24 Dec 11 - 05:28 PM I found some of the prisons I visited quite scary places. Others had a more relaxed atomosphere. (I went into eight in total) I was fairly naive at first, but soon learned. Ones first reaction is to pity them and want to show them kindness. However, prisoners can be dangerous, violent, cunning and vicious. They can lie convincingly and are full of pent-up aggression. But EdT sums it all up well. It's a complex problem and the solutions will be complex too. Kindness has its place, but society must be protected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 24 Dec 11 - 05:48 PM I have a problem with the concept of "deterrents", which in almost every case are nothing of the sort. Nothing at all is a deterrent to those who are committing crime for reasons of mental problems or addiction, since their compulsion to proceed overrides reason and logic. In the case of those who are real criminals there is only one thing that can possibly act as a deterrent, the absolute certainty of being caught, which is, as we all know, entirely impractical. There are many viewpoints on the subject of custodial sentences, and most would agree that they do not work at all in terms of deterring others, but they do remove the capacity to break the law of those who are in prison, which at least reduces the effects on the public at large. There is some mileage in the idea that those who are safe to be on the streets should be given meaningful tasks for a period of time. By meaningful I mean Public Works which the Councils cannot afford because of the labour costs involved (Roadworks, filling in potholes, repairs and refurbishment of Council properties, etc. etc.). It is arguable that such activity just might have some deterrent effect on those who see crime as preferable to working for a living. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 24 Dec 11 - 06:01 PM Don you're right, prison isn't a deterrent. One lad I visited had spent sixteen years in total inside, many many sentences for theft and burglary, shoplifting, drug possession etc etc etc, each sentence longer than the previous one. He never considered prison while doing these things, he just did them as and when he had need or opportunity. In fact, the 'old lags' accepted being inside and were quite accustomed to it all. But this lad's local Police Force (some of whom I got to know) said it was excellent when he was sent down, as the crime rate in his local town plummeted. Prison at least gives the rest of us a break! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Dec 11 - 05:31 AM Eliza, thank you for your post at 09:31 AM. What we're seeking here in California seems to be a matter of course in England. When a person is released from incarceration, no matter how worthy or unworthy he or she is, that person should at least have adequate clothing, food, and transportation - and a little bit of money to get by with. Without these simple things, a jail releasee has no chance whatsoever. It's true that he may well commit another crime no matter how well he's treated, but everyone deserves at least a chance to start anew. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Bluesman Date: 25 Dec 11 - 05:39 AM The system in Russia and Poland seems to work well, fewer re offend in these two countries than anywhere else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 25 Dec 11 - 05:54 AM what system is that BM? merry Christmas (by the way)! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,999 Date: 25 Dec 11 - 11:50 AM Cryogenics may end up being the answer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Bluesman Date: 25 Dec 11 - 12:05 PM Probably a very strict routine without tv,and comforts. It was mentioned in a programme presented by Ross Kemp. Al, I hope you and your family are enjoying the day. I wish all of you, health happiness and the pleasure of eachothers company for many many Christmas Days to come. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Bluesman Date: 25 Dec 11 - 12:07 PM GUEST,999, hope you have a great day over there and in my thoughts at this end. My sister in London Ontario tells me the weather forecast isn't good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,999 Date: 25 Dec 11 - 01:24 PM Thank you very much, Blues. Best wishes back to you. Your sis is having about the same weather we get here in the Chateauguay Valley. Maybe two inches of snow, but I think what might cause traffic problems in England won't cause any difficulties for her in this London. Keep well, Blues. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 25 Dec 11 - 01:37 PM I agree Joe. You can't throw an inmate out onto the street with no money, clothes or a bed. He/she will just steal as fast as possible to secure their needs. I have met two of 'my' offenders off the train, and taken each one in my car to their Probation Hostel. They each had new Prison Issue clothes, even pyjamas in one case! And about £90 in cash for two or three days' keep. They would then go to the Jobcentre to register for Jobseekers' Allowance (about £70 a week) and their Probation Hostel would keep an eye on them. Many releasees steal a stripy Prison shirt to take with them, as they are enormously sought-after, a great 'trophy' among the criminal classes! In my view there is a modicum of humanity one has to show, even to offenders. They are human beings, for all their misdeeds. I shed many a tear at their plight, even though I knew full well they were without exception Bad Lads! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Ed T Date: 25 Dec 11 - 03:01 PM Each Christmas I think of many less fortunate than me. I have good Christmas memories, though I know that all do not. Regardless of why they are there, I reflect on those who are in prison, who are not free. What a lonely place it must be for them and their families. Johnny Cash asingers who had a kind heart to stand up for those in prison, in his case because of his strong human/Christian values. So, a tip of "the old sou'wester" to Johnny Cash for doing what few do. I know this link may belong above the line. But, I put it here because of the discussion, and because thesong means a lot to me today, as I play it each Christmas (thank you John Prine, for this thoughtful song): Christmas in prison |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 25 Dec 11 - 03:14 PM I always loved this song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPgnZUD5XFk Only 200 people have seen it on Youtube. Sorta sad. 140 thousand people have seen my football song Millions odf people have seen all sorts of rubbish. Have loved this song for over 30 years. If it ain't a folk song. It must be a conspiracy by aliens! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: gnu Date: 25 Dec 11 - 05:30 PM Don... "I have a problem with the concept of "deterrents", which in almost every case are nothing of the sort." I believe that you are correct in that particular statement BUT I also believe that the current "system of deterrents" cannot be abandoned... at least... not yet. Unless there is a system to replace the present system, imagine the chaos... no? Now, what is that system? Education? Lifting people out of poverty? Getting... I should stop... I am simply not an expert in any way about the social sciences. I am a dumb gnu... worse yet, I are a injuneer... I could build you a dam but I ain't worth a damn at the social sciences. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Bobert Date: 25 Dec 11 - 06:35 PM I used to be a GED teacher in the Richmond City Jail and also worked with folks probated from jail to drug treatment and have given a lot of thought to how to get better outcomes... More jobs paying a livable job would help a lot... But how about public/private partnerships where corporations set up assembly plants/customer service/etc. centers inside prisons which allows inmates to transition from incarceration to freedom knowing they will have the same jobs once released??? This can be done with tax credits and a change of attitudes... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 26 Dec 11 - 08:32 AM Bobert, I tend to agree, BUT the general population of jobseekers would be miffed to learn that offenders got jobs and the law-abiding were still on the dole. When I was a Prison Visitor, I had two friends whose sons had to live at home, because they were in low-paid work and couldn't afford to rent. However, many released offenders were found Council flats, (rent-free, with no Council Tax to pay as they were not employed) by the Housing Dept. My friends' sons were not amused! They'd worked for many years, had never broken the law, and were still at home in their small bedrooms, being Taxed on their low income. You have to be scrupulously fair and not discourage the 'goodies' by showering aid on the 'baddies'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Bobert Date: 26 Dec 11 - 06:28 PM If you explain the program in terms of dollars and cents, Eliza, most people would be supportive... Our recidivist rates are costing US hundreds of billions in crime and incarceration... If we didn't have that loss that money could go toward helping everyone else... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 26 Dec 11 - 06:40 PM You are absolutely right Eliza. Everybody should have the same consideration when it comes to offering work or accommodation. A man released from prison is considered to have paid for his crime.....by everyone except a prospective employer, or a prospective landlord (with a very few exceptions). The ex convict often loses out in the job stakes (no matter how well qualified) because he has to explain the lack of references and the recent gap in his employment, and the Council is often his sole source of accommodation. While there are ex cons whom nobody could be reasonably expected to trust, there should be more open doors for those who genuinely want to work. On the subject of your comments re Council help, the two "disadvantaged" lads had a roof over their heads and Councils tend to house only those who don't. It might seem unfair, but single folk in accommodation don't rise up the Council House waiting list because there isn't enough money to go round, and the system is geared toward families with greater need Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: gnu Date: 26 Dec 11 - 09:02 PM All very good points, on both sides of the coin. It seems there may be no definitive answers. Sad. But, surely, the present system(s) can be improved? no? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Bert Date: 27 Dec 11 - 05:31 PM Hey Bluesman, I have a sister in London, Ontario as well. Don, ...The ex convict often loses out in the job stakes... But no more than us old folks. But I agree that lack of jobs does turn people to crime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 27 Dec 11 - 05:39 PM GuestBert, I don't think that's true. The young men I 'visited' in Prison would rather fly in the air than work! They had absolutely no intention of getting up early, spending all day in a job and getting what they would describe as a pittance for their toil. They had every intention of recommencing their burgling and thieving etc which brought in lots of money, and staying in bed until noon, just time to mosey down to their dealer for their gear. Just as well, as no employer would touch them with a bargepole. It isn't lack of jobs that turns people to crime, it's incurable criminality. This is not to say I wish there was a remedy, it would certainly save the State a fortune. But I doubt if, once a 'con', one can be anything else BUT a 'con'. It's very very sad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to jail (or prison) From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Jan 12 - 03:59 AM Well, I spoke to the county Board of Supervisors last week. Here's part of what I said:
-Joe- |
