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BS: Dangerous Neti Pots
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Subject: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: JohnInKansas Date: 18 Dec 11 - 04:38 PM Neti pots linked to brain-eating amoeba deaths By Natalie Wolchover LiveScience December 16, 2011 Louisiana's state health department has issued a warning about the dangers of improperly using nasal-irrigation devices called neti pots, responding to two recent deaths in the state that are thought to have resulted from "brain-eating amoebas" entering people's brains through their sinuses while they were using the devices. Both victims are believed to have filled their neti pots with tap water instead of manufacturer-recommended distilled or sterilized water. When they used these pots to force the water up their noses and flush out their sinus cavities — a treatment for colds and hay fever — a deadly amoeba living in the tap water, called Naegleria fowleri, worked its way from their sinuses into their brains. The parasitic organism infected the victims' brains with a neurological disease called primary amoebic meningoencephalitis (PAME), which rapidly destroys neural tissue and typically kills sufferers in a matter of days. Jonathan Yoder, an epidemiologist with the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), said the Louisiana cases are still being investigated to ascertain that the deaths did indeed result from exposure to treated tap water in neti pots, rather than exposure to untreated water in a pond or lake. If so, they are the first known incidences of the disease in the U.S. resulting from N. fowleri organisms surviving the water treatment process. "Nearly all the cases have resulted from exposure to warm recreational water, such as ponds, rivers and lakes, and the kind of exposure where the water would be forced up the nose — for example, diving and water sports," Yoder told Life's Little Mysteries, a sister site to LiveScience. The amoeba thrives in natural waterholes, especially those in the South, and several Americans die every year from swimming in these waterholes, or using untreated water from them. However, "in the last 15 years, I'm not aware of other cases [in the U.S.] associated with treated drinking water," he said. Municipal water undergoes a rigorous purification process to make it potable, including being treated with chlorine to kill microorganisms, he explained. "We consider chlorination to be effective in killing [N. fowleri]. I can't comment on any water system in Louisiana, but in general … you may start out with 1 million amoebas and your goal is to reduce it with chlorine, and you might get 99.9 percent out. But you're probably never going to eliminate 100 percent. That goes for amoebas, parasites, bacteria, viruses. So while we say our drinking water is safe, it's not sterile." N. fowleri only seems capable of reaching the brain if it's given a big boost by being squirted deep into a person's nasal passages. That's why water that is considered safe to drink or bathe in isn't necessarily safe to use in a neti pot, Yoder said. But if you only use distilled or previously boiled water in your neti pot, and you avoid snorting water when diving into waterholes, can you be sure you won't get PAME simply by splashing your face with the water out of your faucet — especially if you live in Louisiana? Yoder said the CDC maintains that the risk of getting PAME from normal exposure to tap water is very low, but they are helping Louisiana's health department investigate the water treatment process in the state. "In general, what we're committed to is even though there are very few cases, CDC is very committed to learning more about the organism so we can prevent further infection by developing science-based prevention methods. But it is a very tragic infection and we're very sad for the families." ... ... ... But is this also a warning about the ol' swimmin' hole? And death to skinny dipping (or in my case chunky dunkin')? John But is this also |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: Paul Burke Date: 18 Dec 11 - 04:55 PM That's an indictment of US water supply, not of smelling netties . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: Jack the Sailor Date: 18 Dec 11 - 05:03 PM You need to use distilled or boiled water. Its not neti pots that kill people its careless people that kill people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Dec 11 - 05:04 PM Louisiana tap water is not the whole of the U. S. water supply. The cases are still under investigation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: gnu Date: 18 Dec 11 - 08:08 PM I use hot water from my hot water tank which is set at 160F. I got no worries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: Jack the Sailor Date: 18 Dec 11 - 09:40 PM Gnu, I hope you let it cool. I use distilled water from Wal*Mart about 70 cents a gallon. cheap peace of mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: JohnInKansas Date: 18 Dec 11 - 11:01 PM As the article points out, the infection from neti pots is apparently extremely rare. The same infection from swimming holes is much more common, but still in the "rare" category. As also pointed out, the goal of public water sources is to provide water safe for drinking, bathing, and other common uses. There's no practical system for assuring that all "bad stuff" is eliminated at the sources, and that nothing harmful grows in the pipes. I'd take it just as a warning that the "more intimate" contact for the neti pot usage requires a little more care than swilling a slug of java. But note that high water heater temperature may just boil off the chlorine (or other treatment) so that the crud grows better in the pipe to the faucet(?). Do you get a slug of cold before the hot stuff gets there? Ever turn the water off before the pipes get heated up? (Just tweakin' ya, of course.) Awareness, not paranoia. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Dec 11 - 09:59 PM I use the hot water from my shower, and that comes from a well 250 feet underground. It just seemed too much of a hassle to use distilled water and heat it to a comfortable temperature and all. I've sometimes wondered if that was dangerous, but I just don't want the hassle. I've been using a neti pot and saline water from a squeeze bottle a couple times a day to help with a sinus infection, and it seems to be working nicely. I had been using it only a couple times a week. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 20 Dec 11 - 01:52 PM Never having heard of neti pots, I am posting this partly as a learning tool for myself, so please excuse any ignorant remarks. The following from Mayo Clinic. Fill the neti pot with warm salt water or ab over-the-counter saline nasal solution. Then tilt your head over the sink, place the spout of the neti pot in the upper nostril, and lift up the pot so that saline flows into your nose. The salt water will flow through your nasal cavity and out the lower nostril. Repeat on the other side. Solution- 1/8 teaspoon table salt into 8 ounces of warm (about body temperature) water. Easier to use than a bulb syringe. Clean syringe or pot thoroughly to avoid bacteria. More effective than sprays. Sounds like torture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Dec 11 - 02:18 PM It is not pleasant. But it is more pleasant than the congestion symptoms of an inner ear or sinus infection. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: gnu Date: 20 Dec 11 - 02:21 PM Actually, Q, it's definitely a good idea, especially during cold and flu season. It may take a little getting used to but it's worth it. I wouldn't use the pot but a SinuCleanse squeeze bottle works well, followed by a rinse of warm water and the Hydrasense Gentle Mist which lubes the tubes. you can skip the warm ater rise if yer scared yer brian might get ett. Oh, yeah... my ENT said 1/4 tsp salt and 1/4 tsp baking soda in 1 cup water. John... don't you put whiskey in yer water? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: gnu Date: 20 Dec 11 - 02:32 PM you can skip the warm ater rise? I swear I proofed that... well, I swear a lot, so... ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: Stilly River Sage Date: 20 Dec 11 - 03:22 PM The thread title is disingenuous, John, it isn't the neti pots that are dangerous, it is some water. I've always used tap water and a combination of hot water from my tea kettle. Now I'll use water from the tea kettle that has boiled and had time to cool. I use salt and a little baking soda. Amounts to about a 3/4 to 1 tsp per cup of warm water. Too little and it hurts like hell. The water needs to be saline. If you have a fully-engaged sinus infection then neti pots aren't recommended, they can make things worse, but if you feel one starting to come on, then using it can make it go away before it gets started. I haven't had to take antibiotics for a sinus infection in several years, since I started using one. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 21 Dec 11 - 11:17 AM "Sounds like torture." It isn't. I use a syringe and water with salt + baking soda, just as Gnu wrote. Apparently my sinuses don't drain well at all, and when I get a cold, it hangs on and on. Rinsing them with the salty water helps a lot. SRS, you are right when you say the problem is some water. We need to figure out why these organisms are in some people's water, and we need to figure out how to eliminate them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Dec 11 - 11:38 AM Boil the water or use distilled. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: JohnInKansas Date: 21 Dec 11 - 02:21 PM it isn't the neti pots that are dangerous, it is some water. The point of the article is that water that meets normal municipal standards and may be safe for drinking, cooking, and any external uses still may present a slight risk when used in a neti pot, or for other purposes where it may be more intimately in contact with "internal tissues" that lack the resistance that casual assessment might expect them to have to invasion by bacteria . Because of the seriousness of the isolated cases cited, a review of public water supplies in the area where the incidents occured is appropriate; but there's no real expectation that the water supplies fail to meet the usual applicable standards, or are in any way more infectious than most puplic utility supplies or most private wells and other sources. Simple fact: Tap water is not sterile. It's not the water instead of the neti pot that's a hazard. It's the inappropriate use of water perfectly suitable for most uses, for a purpose where it would be a little more appropriate to use something else. The problem exists only when the "wrong water" is used with the neti pot or for some other reason is put in contact with places where it shouldn't be. The water is only a risk when used inappropriately, and the neti pot is a most common use of that kind. Just as you shouldn't put water in your gas tank, but you really should put it in the radiator, it's the combination of the materials used and the applications in which they're used, and the danger appears only when both, material and process, occur together. I'm sure most here noted that swimming in "natural waters" is a much greater risk than the neti pot, although both are the same kind of infection. And there are appropriate measures one can take to minimize the risks in both cases. As to the "disingenuous headline," as usual I found it difficult to put the whole article in the thread title, but attempted to suggest reading the linked article. or at least the part posted, before leaping to hysteria. I believe the posted material satisfactorily explained the risk. Sorry if that failed (for any of you). John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: Don Firth Date: 21 Dec 11 - 04:40 PM About fifteen years ago, I had a sinus operation. Polyps in my sinuses I was told, and it had reached a point where I couldn't breathe through my nose. After the operation (endoscopy, they didn't have to open up my face like they used to have to do, and with an excellent anesthesiologist, I wasn't even there during the procedure!), my ear, snoot, and throat physician told me to rinse my sinuses a couple of times a day. Neti pot? I've never heard of them until now. The ENT doctor told me to get a Water-Pik with a special attachment. Worked like a charm. He didn't' say anything about the water, but if I ever need to use the lash-up again, I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the warning! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: JohnInKansas Date: 21 Dec 11 - 05:13 PM Don reminds me that I need to get a new Water-Pik. It's the best thing going for getting the snarf out of the safety razor when the whiskers have gotten a little longish between shaves, so you don't have to replace the blades so often. A 15% improvement in blade usage life should pay a Pik off in a few months. (Or maybe I should just go back to the straight blade that I used when I was 13, until the Army took it away from me. Unfortunately, I haven't found a place to hang the strop in our new dinky bathroom.) With respect to the neti pot, the implied warning that one should be especially cautious with the fluids used whenever there's more than usual "irritation," or any drainage showing blood or other evidence of "internal injury or infection" might be worth specifc note. It would be reasonable to assume that an "injured membrane" would be more susceptible to any potential infection. With normally healthy (even if congested) membranes, the risk of using less than pure and sterile solutions is probably fairly minimal, so it's a matter of doing what you feel safe with at the time. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dangerous Neti Pots From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 22 Dec 11 - 01:41 PM Sure, people are right about not using tap water to irrigate the sinuses. That doesn't mean we should ignore these amoeba in drinking water. There are other ways that a person, especially a person who is litle, awkward, or being teased, could get water up the nose. But maybe y'all never had a big brother who thought it was the height of jollity to shove your head underwater and hold it for a while. |
