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Sycophantic Audiences
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Subject: Noise, Sycophantics And Solos From: Dick The Box Date: 19 Nov 07 - 04:48 AM Bev and I went to see Orchestre Baobab at Warwick Arts Centre on Saturday night. They were very good and value for money. However, we felt that they would have been better suited to a smaller and more intimate venue (possibly aided by aided by more alcohol and dubious substances) rather than a large rather clinical hall. Not likely though because of the ecomonics of touring with a ten piece band. The post show discussions on the way home also threw up some interesting more general observations. Firstly, is it us or are bands too often too loud? We found the noise levels were quite painful and it really took the edge off our enjoyment of the music. I suffered especially as I had lent out my ear plugs (which I carry for Health & Safety reasons when I am visiting manufacturing plants). We were sat towards the back of the hall so it must have been dangerous at the front near the speakers. In the end we were forced to retreat to the bar well before the end of the concert. Are these noise levels necessary or is it just that sound engineers are all deaf? Secondly, it seems that as bands get famous they build up a loyal following. These people seem to feel that because they are "fans" who have bought a sweatshirt and know all the words, they have the right to take endless flash photos, interfere with the equipment, touch the performers and climb on the stage to dance with them. As a performer myself I know just how annoying it is when some drunken idiot, who thinks they are the most amusing person in the world, gets on stage and starts staggering around amongst thousands of pounds worth of instruments and kit. Thirdly, this following of sycophants seem to lose all their critical faculties and wildly applaud everything whether it is good or not. We have been to gigs which have frankly been rubbish but the sycophants are still there lapping it all up. My opinion is that it makes performers lazy. If they get adoration whatever they do then there is no incentive to improve the quality of their offering, and may well blind them to any shortcomings. Fourthly, why do we have the cult of the jazz solo? I get fed up when bands feel the need to have instrumental solos in every number, and even more fed up that you are expected to applaud every solo no matter how short or crap it was. It only encourages the sycophants, massages the egos of the soloists, and hides the unsung heroes in the back line. Used sparingly they are great but when it gets formulaic and obligatory then no thanks. Well, that turned into more of a rant than I intended. Still, I think there are some points in there that are worthy of discussion. Cheers, Richard PS Serious discussion only please. I get so depressed when these threads turn into personal slanging matches..... |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: Big Al Whittle Date: 19 Nov 07 - 04:54 AM If you want to experience real sycophancy - go to see the RSC at Stratford and listen to the audience's loud theatrical guffaws at Shakespeare's 'jokes'. |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: Tim Leaning Date: 19 Nov 07 - 05:26 AM He he Yes it is too bloody loud. Especialy when you have no earplugs 'cos they put "ASccousti |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 19 Nov 07 - 06:04 AM It seems to me that many people have lost all sense of proportion with regard to music. I suspect that this phenomenon is related to the appropriation of music by capitalism and its commodification - but I could be talking a load of old b****cks! |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: mack/misophist Date: 19 Nov 07 - 09:07 AM It's not just popular music. I once heard a classical player condemn San Francisco audiences for giving everyone a standing ovation, whether they deserved it or not. |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: RTim Date: 19 Nov 07 - 09:11 AM One of the things about living in the USA that I hate the most is how over the top some audiences can be - Whooping & Hollering to the extreme following even modest performances - but then I am English and much more laid back! However - in the end it doesn't really matter a whole lot. Tim Radford |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: GUEST,strad Date: 19 Nov 07 - 09:17 AM In my experience most bands who use PA set the output at painful level. I rarely go to "concerts" for this very reason. Having heard and enjoyed a CD of an excellent band I went to one of their concerts. I lasted five minutes before I walked out as I value my hearing too much to suffer any more of the noise from the stage. When will they ever learn that volume doesn't translate into quality. Or am I just a grumpy old fart? |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: Roger the Skiffler Date: 19 Nov 07 - 09:18 AM As a jazz fan I enjoy instrumental solos but I do dislike the people who clap to show they've recognised the song (after a couple of bars in), just as I hate folks who clap the entrance of an actor on to the stage (Ooh look he's turned up!). Save the applause for when they've done the job! Then I'm a grumpy old git- I hate it when audiences at the front stand up so everyone else has to or have their view blocked. RtS |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: Mooh Date: 19 Nov 07 - 09:27 AM At the risk of sound unappreciative, and I assure you it's not the case, I heartily dislike applause DURING a piece. It detracts and distracts from what comes next, another solo, a vocal phrase, timing nuance, whatever. I say this as both a performer and audience member. Make all the noise you want after, but some folks want to hear the piece, and sometimes that includes the players. As for volume, I agree it's often too loud. Our drummer likes it that way, but I suspect he's in denial about his hearing loss. Always experiment with turning others down before turning yourself up is a good general rule, though beware of the loss of tone when many sound systems are barely idling. Good monitors help as does good room acoustics, but sometimes striking a balance is near impossible with amateurs at the mixing board (that includes those pros who don't know the music style). As for other impolite behavior, good luck with that, it seems to be acceptable everywhere these days. Sigh... Peace, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: Dick The Box Date: 19 Nov 07 - 09:28 AM Hi Cat's dad! It does matter if your enjoyment is spoiled because some eejit is whooping and hollering and bouncing up and down in front of you (especially at a chamber music recital Richard |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: GUEST,Jim Martin Date: 19 Nov 07 - 09:53 AM There was a previous thread on PA sound levels, something to the effect of 'are sound engineers deaf?', but I can't find it, even though I made a contribution! Nothing came up when I checked all my postings. |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: katlaughing Date: 19 Nov 07 - 10:13 AM Was it THIS ONE, Jim? We were taught, from birth (I think!) NOT to clap during music performance, esp. classical. Otherwise, the music we heard was usually our parents playing at a dance, so it was all right, obviously. Recently, we went with our son and his girlfriend to see Gaelic Storm. The venue was not large, and though we sat just a bit beyond halfway back and up, we could not hear one another speak. WAY too loud and I was wishing they'd just get rid of the mics and just play and sing. I don't know why they think they have to mic everything in such a small venue. They had their followers,too, of course, but since we were in an old theatre with stadium seating, we could see, no problem. |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: M.Ted Date: 19 Nov 07 - 10:31 AM They say that if it's too loud, you're too old. That is probably true. As to the business about soloing--well, that's what they do--you might as well complain that they sing, or that someone is keeping the beat in every song. For the rest of it, on one hand, people complain because music isn't participatory any more. Then they get upset when people get up and have a good time. So you've struck out, three for three;-) To paraphrase John Prine (who was never too loud)-- Dick the Box, Dick the Box, You have no complaint You are what your are and you ain't what you ain't So listen up Buster, and listen up good Stop wishing for bad luck and knocking on wood M.Ted(who realized that he was too old the first time he saw a mosh pit) |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: katlaughing Date: 19 Nov 07 - 10:40 AM But would you be old based on it being too loud, if it hadn't been so loud when you were younger?:-) |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: GUEST,Jim Martin Date: 19 Nov 07 - 10:50 AM Yes, that's it, thanks Katlaughing. |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: Maryrrf Date: 19 Nov 07 - 01:59 PM Even when I was young, I didn't particularly enjoy loud music, and I like it even less now. I can't remember the last time I attended an event where the music wasn't loud enough, but I CAN remember plenty of times when the music was far too loud - so loud it was distorted and muddy sounding. That is definitely one of my main complaints. |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: M.Ted Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:44 PM I am not the one who says I am too old--it's these young people. Even at that, the technology is out there to be louder than was ever possible before, and then there's the fact that the ambient noise is louder than ever was, so to even to sound the same, things would have to be louder, and to be too loud, they have to been even louder. It's frightening. |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: Brendy Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:03 PM The guys that buy you a coffee, and then think that gives them the right to treat you as their personal jukebox for the rest of the evening.. Getting the sound right in a venue is not the hardest thing in the world to do, if the speaker set up around the hall/pub/wherever is decent. What I have recommended pubs to do over the years is to run a line from the desk on the stage through a light limiter to the AUX channel of the pub's CD/mp3 amplifier, and send it around the room at an ambient level. It mightn't be the perfect solution, but it gives the required effect. B. |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: katlaughing Date: 19 Nov 07 - 04:22 PM M. Ted, that sounds like the fast food racket of if it's bigger it's got to be better! SuperSize it! |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: Mikefule Date: 19 Nov 07 - 04:42 PM Shimrod wrote with some justification): < To redress the balance: I was once playing a simple tune on my melodeon and a folky friend started to tap her foot, and tried to pick the tune up. Then she asked me what it was. I said "O'Carolan's Patrol" and she showed more interest. Then someone pointed out it was Glenn Miller's "American Patrol" and she immediately turned up her lip and lost all interest. Either a tune's good on its own merits, or it isn't. |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: kendall Date: 19 Nov 07 - 04:47 PM I have a tee shirt. On the front it says, IF ITS TOO LOUD YOU ARE TOO OLD. On the back it says: IF ITS TOO LOUD ITS TOO F..G LOUD |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: M.Ted Date: 19 Nov 07 - 09:56 PM It might not be a perfect solution, Brendy, but it is an elegant solution--especially the limiter-- |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:03 AM What about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Gospel_Music_Festival Over 100 dB(C) half a kilometer off the site, what the bloody hell is it ON site? The problem is that they meet the Legal Noise Pollution levels, because such levels are specified in dB(A) (which is under 50 dB(A)!!! ) ... see "Compression and Bass Boost" ... you can HEAR the sound breakup crackles... and believe me, a 100 dB(C) drum solo is something.... :-P |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: GUEST,Jim Martin Date: 20 Nov 07 - 07:31 AM See 'Tech:Sound Engineers' thread! |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Nov 07 - 02:10 PM is it just that sound engineers are all deaf? Very likley indeed the annswer is that they probably are. When you think of it you'd think it'd be the oldies who are getting a bit hard of hearing who'd want it louder, not the other way round. Before I got my hearing aids I was always turning the TV at home up much too loud in order to hear it properly. |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: GUEST Date: 20 Nov 07 - 02:54 PM I remember the first gigs I ever went to, aged 14, thinking everything was a bit too loud. I don't think age has much to do with it. Mind you, we are talking My Bloody Valentine and Dinosaur Junior here. Both not exactly known for being quiet. But anyway, I have tinnitus in my left ear so I simply can't stay in the room if it's too loud and I don't have earplugs. And I'm not that old (33). I also prefer singing and playing acoustically. I've got used to it over the years, but I still never really liked the whole routine of monitors and P.A.s. It's like the sound's coming from the wrong place. |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:02 PM when its your job guest, its a relief to get the bloody sound coming out in abundant quantities from anywhere - right place or wrong! |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: Brendy Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:32 PM Monitors are essential. ... again, it doesn't have to be that much. Looking at some of the hardware that is available these days, you can get handy wee systems for half nothing... B. |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: M.Ted Date: 20 Nov 07 - 07:29 PM GUEST: The Beatles stopped performing because they couldn't hear themselves---that's how important monitors are. |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: Bobert Date: 20 Nov 07 - 07:51 PM Geeze... No real musican ever wants it ever to be "too loud"... So if you go to hear a decent band and it's too loud then it most likeley ain' the band, it's the sound guys... Sound guys like it loud... There are very few left who have any level of understanding of what amplification means... I'll leave that part of the discussion to just that... Now, as for the "peanut gallery"... Unless they are drunk and obnoxious, hey, I want 'um involved... If they want to try to sing along (without a PA) then great... If they want to get up on the stage then, okay, sometimes that's perfectly okay until they think they are part of the band... If a young person get5s up and is just dancin', what's the harm???... Yeah, it's always a lot more fun seein' yer favorites playin' in a small club... There is no comparison but it doesn't always work out that way... Most musicans would rather play small clubs, too, becuase they are intimate.... That's me 2 cents worth... B~ |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Nov 07 - 08:08 PM I think sycophantic audiences don't really help much. I think it was hard to see what a fabulous guitarist Martin Carthy was in those small clubs - you couldn't hear him properly. Its not really a loud instrument, the guitar. I bet he never realised how little we heard. |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: GUEST,matt m (previously known as 'guest') Date: 21 Nov 07 - 05:33 AM |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: GUEST,Matt M Date: 21 Nov 07 - 05:57 AM …very careless with my return key there! not disputing the value of monitors/PA systems etc in general! Just that in small clubs (which in most cases is gonna be what musicians reading this thread are playing) I'd be able to hear myself perfectly fine if I wasn't going through a monitor. (Or PA for that matter) Every monitor mix I get always has my voice at Wembley Stadium level, often with a fair bit of reverb on it, and acoustic guitar dwarfed by it. Suspect this is cos I play a lot of 'acoustic' nights (rather than 'folk'nights): lots of rock singers who don't sing that loud cos they're used to singing through a mic, and who strum their guitars with a pick. (I on the other hand sing comparatively loudly but I fingerpick comparatively quietly with ends of fingers cos I've never managed to grow my nails.) I've often achieved a better atmos and performance in small clubs by not bothering with amplification or the stage and just playing from the floor in the middle of the audience. You end up quieter than other acts on the bill, but the audience that listens *really* listens. |
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Subject: RE: Sycophantic Audiences From: Brendy Date: 21 Nov 07 - 06:00 AM ... or not, as the case may be. If your monitor mix is wrong, get it right. B. |
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