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The Imagined Village
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Subject: The Imagined Village From: GUEST,news bearer Date: 30 Jul 07 - 12:03 PM If any one wants a link to the site. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 30 Jul 07 - 12:28 PM For God's sake! What has the Scottish ballad, 'Tam Lyn' got to do with English Tradition? |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: Ruth Archer Date: 30 Jul 07 - 12:33 PM Dunno, but Benjamin Zephaniah kicks arse with his version. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: greg stephens Date: 30 Jul 07 - 12:35 PM Surely if they are exploring African and Indian influences, a little hint of Scottish seems quite appropriate? Folk music is no great respecter of national boundaries you know. And in any case, how exclusively Scottish is Tam Lynn? |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 31 Jul 07 - 07:41 AM Hi Greg, I don't know of any English versions that were sung in English villages (imaginary or otherwise). |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: Fudged Date: 31 Jul 07 - 08:18 AM Must admit I'm disappointed in Simon Emmerson re Tam Lyn. I'm not one for fuelling the English/Scottish divide, but to come out with lines like "...it's also about honouring England's distinctive traditions" is just asking for a slagging. A dash of African , Indian, Scottish or any other cultural influence is welcome and should be encouraged, gives a nice internationalist feel to what's being hyped as a very English project, but to lay claim to Tam Lyn as part of England's heritage is ludicrous. Countless folk-tales have differnet national versions but Tam Lyn, Greg, is rare in being a distinctly Scottish tale. It deals with specific locations, anmes and, indeed traditions. I've no objection to S.E setting up a celebration of English tradition, but to start re-inventing English traditions by poaching otheres is a bit much. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: Darowyn Date: 31 Jul 07 - 08:28 AM "I don't know of any English versions that were sung in English villages" It does not take much imagination to realise that possibly there might have been Scots living in quite a few English villages. Possibly some of them could sing. Have you noticed how some accents persist in people however long a time they are away from their native area? Scottish accents never seem to fade, maybe song versions are the same- culturally more refractory. Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: GUEST,Simon Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:21 AM "Countless folk-tales have differnet national versions but Tam Lyn, Greg, is rare in being a distinctly Scottish tale. It deals with specific locations, anmes and, indeed traditions." Just a thought - have you actually heard Benjamin Zephaniah's version? Do you know that he mentions these locations and names? Why does a song have to be tied to a time and place in perpetuity - surely by classifying something as traditional you are cutting those ties by definition. I've heard a version sung in an English village - my sister used to sing it round the house. She learnt it from Liege and Leif. That doesn't make it any less traditional and it doesn't make it any less valid. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: greg stephens Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:31 AM My family are Cumbrians for many generations back. I possibly have a different view of what constitutes the "English Tradition" from someone in London. Or Penzance. Or Daventry. In particular, I don't feel that something from Scotland(one yard away) should be "foreign" to me, whereas something from London(300 miles away) should be "my own culture". |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: Ruth Archer Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:37 AM "Just a thought - have you actually heard Benjamin Zephaniah's version? Do you know that he mentions these locations and names?" Zepheniah has completely re-written it: his is a dub poem that takes place in clubland... |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: GUEST Date: 31 Jul 07 - 02:23 PM "Zepheniah has completely re-written it: his is a dub poem that takes place in clubland... " It rather reminds me of a terrible little film version of the Tam Lin legend made in 1970, starring Ava Gardener, Ian McShane and Stephanie Beacham. Roddy McDowell's one and only outing as director. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: Jack Campin Date: 31 Jul 07 - 03:49 PM Zephaniah's version (played on Radio 3 last night) was pretty good. Sure it's a fusion of two non-English traditions, but why not? The only places you'd be be likely to find Afro-Caribbean and Scottish cultures mixing are (a) the Caribbean and (b) England - there is next to no visible Afro-Caribbean culture in Scotland itself. I was thoroughly unimpressed with either Emmerson or Bragg. Emmerson was claiming that English music was utterly marginalized only four years ago and that his band had made all the difference (yeah, right). Bragg's song was a string of cliches and a bathetic anticlimax after the rocked-up version of John Barleycorn that started the programme. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: Fudged Date: 31 Jul 07 - 06:24 PM "Just a thought - have you actually heard Benjamin Zephaniah's version? Do you know that he mentions these locations and names? Why does a song have to be tied to a time and place in perpetuity - surely by classifying something as traditional you are cutting those ties by definition." I like Benjamin Zephaniah's version and I've no problem with anyone from anywhere adopting any scottish art, traditional or otherwise, and adapting it to suit their own tastes or culture. What I'm objecting to here is Simon Emmerson talking about "honouring England's distinctive traditions" when he isn't - he's assuming the song is English, maybe because of Fairport, maybe for other reasons, and passing it off as an example of the English tradition he's trying to update and re-capture. I don't think he's malicious, just ill-informed. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: stallion Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:08 AM The imagined village I suppose is like imagined cultures, interesting to note that Gregs folks in Cumbria felt more homogeneity with the Scots "one yard away" than people further south. It wasn't that long ago that the elites of what we now know as nations had more in common with each other than their respective "serfs" (Peon's, wage slaves etc) So i don't see it unusual for feral music to be rooted in areas rather than arbitery borders set by wars in the dim and, in some cases, not so distant past. So once we have established the term English is a broad generalisation that may not specifically apply to, say Cumbria and the border regions, then do we mean by "English" somewhere like Sussex, Essex and Norfolk? There is no evidence of songs from geographic specific areas not being sung elsewhere and, bearing in mind the historical link with travelling labourers in the harvest, both Irish and Scot music must have penetrated far and wide through England. So it is possible that these songs were played and sung in England (wherever that is, I am a Yorkshire first!) even if they didn't originate there. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:34 AM Some interesting views here, from Greg Stephens and 'stallion', about what 'Englishness' means - they make some valid points. Unfortunately, I suspect that this 'Imaginary Village' project may be coming from an even narrower field of view than the one that GS and 'stallion' are arguing against. Including the Scottish ballad, 'Tam Lyn' in the project makes me suspect that it's a view based on recordings of 'Fairport Convention' and 'Steeleye Span' rather than any deep knowledge of English Trad. music or English rural culture. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 Aug 07 - 10:02 AM We are only getting our own back. Look how many English songs are on 'Celtic' compilations;-) On a more serious note I give you a quote from a souce I never fully rely on (Wikipedia) but in this instance I think it sums it up far better than I could - Tam Lin is the hero of a Borders' legend about fairies and mortal men. While this ballad is unique to Scotland, the motif of capturing a person by holding him through all forms of transformation is found throughout Europe in folktales. There is a site were the list of similar tales and their possible origins but I'm buggered if I can find it now. It'll pop up when I am not looking:-) One of the things I remembered was the reference to Tam Lin and Thomas the Rhymer being of similar Ilk. Thomas the Rhymer was initialy thought to have been a Scottish Laird but there is also ample evidence that he could have been Thomas of Britain - An Anglo/Norman poet from a much earlier time. In any case I think it would be pretty pointless arguing about the origins of song that go back so far! I think it only adds to the imagined village anyway. Us English certainly have a way of assimilating other traditions and I think it is an excelent reflection of the racial harmony we should be aiming for. Maybe the producers HAVE looked closely at English traditions and discovered that our music and our ancestry are as mongrel as each other. I haven't heard the album yet but I am looking forward to. Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: Jack Campin Date: 01 Aug 07 - 10:05 AM Zephaniah's version owes nothing beyond the storyline to any traditional version of "Tam Lin". He may have got it from some English folk revival version, but he's primarily a poet, must have print versions of it on his bookshelves, and could equally well have worked from one of them. It doesn't matter. If Emmerson was claiming Zephaniah's piece as a fusion of English music with another genre then he's obviously wrong (and the bit of interview I heard suggested he was thick enough to claim exactly that). But as something created out of traditional materials on English soil, why shouldn't it be there? |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: thefunkysocksgirl Date: 01 Aug 07 - 01:47 PM Saw The Imagined Village at Womad over the weekend and liked some of it a lot, including the version of Tam Lyn that was played. I liked the way that it (TIV) was billed as breaking away from traditional folk music and interpreting songs in a completely different way. It was nice to hear a fresh take on songs that I'd heard before, and I liked the use of video as well, particularly during their first song where they filmed a chap talking about his memories and how things had changed since he was young. The guy looked familiar and I thought I should know who he was, but I wasn't sure... If anyone can enlighten me I'd be grateful :-) It was a pleasure to see so much talent and so many big names on stage at the same time, lucky me :-) Looking forward to seeing how the project develops in the future. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: Ruth Archer Date: 01 Aug 07 - 03:33 PM The chap talking about his memories is John Copper. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael Date: 01 Aug 07 - 04:39 PM call me old fashioned, but I do believe I'll stick to Fairport Convention and Liege & Lief |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael Date: 01 Aug 07 - 05:16 PM oh and Ashley Hutchings and his really great CD Street Cries |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: GUEST,Jon Date: 02 Aug 07 - 02:19 AM And the words John Copper spoke were those of his grandfather Jim lamenting the encroachment of urban development upon his beloved downland. His point being that in an ever changing world the old songs were the only point of constancy for him. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael Date: 02 Aug 07 - 11:06 AM and very well putindeed Jon. Thank you for that |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: Big Al Whittle Date: 02 Aug 07 - 04:59 PM 'His point being that in an ever changing world the old songs were the only point of constancy for him.' I feel much the same way about the reruns of Howards Way on UK Gold. I was watching it at six o'clock this morning, And I thought to myself - I know who wins this boat race, Ken Masters - the same bloke who won it in 1986. Theres a lot to be said for keeping these ancient artforms going. Tarrant - the imagined village...? |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive) Date: 02 Aug 07 - 05:53 PM Try This Tam Lin A site dedicated to the collection and study of the ballad of Tam Lin. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive) Date: 02 Aug 07 - 05:56 PM "Including the Scottish ballad, 'Tam Lyn' in the project makes me suspect that it's a view based on recordings of 'Fairport Convention' and 'Steeleye Span' rather than any deep knowledge of English Trad. music or English rural culture" I personally don't have a problem with the recordings of either band |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive) Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:10 PM "The resulting album is arguably the most ambitious re-invention of the English folk tradition since Fairport Convention's Liege and Lief back in 1969." Whatever you say, Mr. Emmerson, whatever you say.......(trying not to laugh) |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 03 Aug 07 - 08:29 AM "I personally don't have a problem with the recordings of either band" CMM you miss my point. It's got nothing to do with "having a problem" with those specific bands. It's just that if 'The Imagined Village' project is going to make grandiose claims about exploring and updating traditional English culture then it needs to dig a bit deeper than just putting a few, less than 40 year old, commercial recordings in the CD player. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael Date: 03 Aug 07 - 11:28 AM "The resulting album is arguably the most ambitious re-invention of the English folk tradition since Fairport Convention's Liege and Lief back in 1969." As far as I'm concerbed the above is the most grandiose claim that has made about The Imagined Village...but you're right, Emmerson and Co. should, and could, have indulged themselves in a little more research, at least Ashley Hutchings did that, and still does as far as I know. Though I'm not sure that even the research could have saved, what is to me, a hopeless mess. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: GUEST,Merina Date: 03 Aug 07 - 04:17 PM There are some very strange and pompous jumpings to conclusions and adding 2 & 2 to make 7 in this thread. Read Colin Irwin's feature about the Imagined Village in the current fRoots and you'll discover that the original idea evolved from a project on the songs of the Copper Family, and Georgina Boyes book on the early folk song collectors, not '60s folk rock bands. Also that Martin Carthy - hardly a man shorter on research credits than Ashley Hutchins - was involved from very early on. I doubt very much whether half the participants would have heard Fairport Convention. I read somewhere else that they were generally given traditional versions or recordings by people like Mike Waterson as a starting point. Liege & Lief is very nice and was a landmark at its time but is very dated now. The "contemporary" part of it - as opposed to the timeless traditional elements - is stylistically nearly 40 years old. Living traditional songs have always evolved with the times or you might as well stuff them, put them in a glass case and throw away the key. Enjoy your old nostalgic stuff by all means, but don't auto-knock those who have put the work and skills into something of now without actually hearing the project, which I did live at Womad last Saturday. It got fantastic acclaim. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael Date: 03 Aug 07 - 04:51 PM I've heard the samples...which is more than enough...as I said it's a mess...and Colin Irwin? hardly a reliable source.(Think premature obituary of a certain fiddle player....*LOL*) |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael Date: 03 Aug 07 - 05:05 PM "Enjoy your old nostalgic stuff by all means" nostalgic has nothing to do with it, Liege & Lief is a well-crafted, well thought out and well produced album...oh and well played of course. Even without Sandy Leige & Lief will stand the live test (Cropredy 2007)...I wonder if The Imagined Village will be remembered in 40 years? |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: The Borchester Echo Date: 03 Aug 07 - 05:27 PM "Nostalgic' is everything to do with Liege & Lief. It was exciting in 1969 but it's now a period piece, very much of its time. There was a buzz around C#House as various Fairports dropped by and researched tunes and texts. That's not how you'd describe the news that Chris While will be vox person at Cropredy. Simon Emmerson has been researching the Imagined Village project for several years. First I knew of it was 4 years ago when he played the Barleycorn demo though Jim Moray has said that it goes back even further. Simon Emmerson is nothing if not thorough. It's a much more far-reaching project that L&L ever was, intent on reflecting the place music that is played in England today has in a 21st century context. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: GUEST,Merina Date: 03 Aug 07 - 05:28 PM "Nostalgia has nothing to do with it . . . I wonder if The Imagined Village will be remembered in 40 years?" Nostalgia has everything to do with what you're pontificating about here. There's a big difference between remembering something because it's part of your own youth and memories and an influence on a tiny minority, and it being part of the national cultural fabric. Liege & Lief is obviously of the former for you but (regardless of its undeniable merits) no amount of wishful thinking will make it the latter. Go and ask somebody in the queue at Tescos if they've heard of it. As for "will it be remembered in 40 years?", possibly, but most likely only in the same way as L&L to those of a certain generation who encountered it. In the wider world, that's also what they said about Elvis. That's the trouble with the future, it's unpredictable. Really, "I don't like it, therefore it's cr*p" isn't a great position to take, thought it's standard Mudcat view, |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: GUEST,Crazy Man Michael Date: 03 Aug 07 - 05:37 PM "I don't like it, therefore it's cr*p" hardly that, for me, The Imagined Village simply doesn't work, it too cumbersome, and possibly to clever for its own good. We'll see what sort of "buzz" it creates when the full album is released. |
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Subject: RE: The Imagined Village From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 03 Aug 07 - 06:38 PM Haven't heard the Imagined Village yet so I won't comment. Sort of looking forward to it but not building up my hopes as I've always found the Afro-Celts a bit rubbish. However I was 6 when L&L came out so heard it a long time after the event. It's alright, but give me Anne Briggs, Shirley Collins, Willie Scott, Davie Stewart, Nic Jones etc etc any day. And that's just for starters. However... I can't deny that L&L was part of my journey to these fine artists. It does sound dated in a way that none of those I've listed do, though. Cheers Nigel |
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