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BS: Handicap Accessibility
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Subject: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Jul 07 - 08:16 PM We're just back from yet another place that I am sure is in "legal" compliance with the ADA, but is not actually USEable. I'm heartsick-- the gas we burned, the fun we'd packed for, that we were looking forward to.... I could list the numerous, insane barriers I've run onto in various places at various times, but just at the moment I don't feel like defending my viewpoint against the ignorance of the able-bodied, in order to express my point. So I'll just mention one that happens all too often-- the HC parking space near the HC-marked entrance door? With the nice, big signage? Cool..... except that the door is locked, or leads to another locked passageway so you can't get to the event you paid to attend.... It's pouring rain and you get soaked just finding out that you're screwed. (My first time with that one was a FOUR hour drive, one way, for the pleasure.) I get so damn tired of having to be an advocate in order to GET anywhere that I would just like to go, as a human being, in the normal daily course of life. Today it was just our evening ruined. What if I had been hosting an even LESS able-bodied friend or client??? Behind these barriers the assumption seems to be that every disability these days is accompanied by a motorized wheelchair. Our world is going to get very interesting, though, as more and more baby-boomers are using walkers. Or whose disability is colostomy-related. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Don Firth Date: 01 Jul 07 - 09:26 PM Ah, yes! Susan, I wrote an article some time back about matters of accessibility, emphasizing the humorous, but making sure that the bite was plainly evident. This thread reminded me that I was going to see if I could get the article published somewhere. On one of the first trips my wife and I took after I would up permanently in a wheelchair was to a synod convention on the campus of a college in a nearby city. Barbara was conducting a workshop, and although I was a free-agent, I planned on attending a workshop on making sure that church buildings and other church facilities are accessible to the disabled. Oh, boy! On that trip alone, I found a whole catalog of things that had me banging my head on a nearby wall. I concluded that, to a large degree, people's hearts were in the right place, but unfortunately, they had all too often left their brains in the broom closet. There was a mezzanine floor in the building where the accessibility workshop was being held. I took the elevator up, looked for the room number, and noticed that the room was down about six or seven steps. So I took the elevator down one floor and found the room up six or seven steps. As I sat there contemplating the irony of it all, a man asked me if he could direct me somewhere. I told him that I had planned to attend the accessibility workshop, but had discovered that the room it was being held in was—inaccessible. He looked horrified! He smacked his forehead and said, "I'm the pastor who is conducting that workshop!" And, he noted, the Powers That Be had scheduled it in the most inaccessible room on the whole campus. He said that he would put a word in someone's ear about that, then he rounded up a couple of bully-boys and they lifted me, wheelchair and all, up the steps. Needless to say, it became a very interesting and enlightening workshop! He had a most interesting way of opening the workshop. He started by saying, "Well, well! I notice that over half of you folks are wearing prosthetic devices." This had people a bit flummoxed at first. Out of about twenty-five people, there was me in my wheelchair and a blind couple. Everyone else appeared to be able-bodied. Then he dropped the other shoe: "Over half of you people are wearing glasses. Now, honestly: how well would you get along if there were no such thing as eyeglasses?" Without going into the half-dozen more head-bangers that I encountered on that trip (and dozens more subsequently), I have concluded that when designing for accessibility or when retrofitting buildings, architectural and construction firms need to have a list of people with various disabilities as consultants, to go over the plans and/or do a run-through before construction or retrofit is finalized. I have both a manual and a motorized wheelchair. I've found many public restrooms where the manual chair is a real squeeze and despite it's tight turning radius (it can turn in it's own "footprint"), I can't get the motorized chair in at all. I'm going to see it I can get that article published. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Rapparee Date: 01 Jul 07 - 09:37 PM Don, here's a few more little tidbits from someone who has prosthetic lenses and a few prosthetic teeth: 1. Handicapped parking places are, strictly speaking, only such IF there is a sign posted on a pole (where it's visible in snow or if the paint job on the lot wears off). 2. Automatically opening doors are NOT ADA-required, even though they should be (mothers with strollers appreciate them too). 3. If you have a plan to make a place which isn't ADA-accessible come into compliance, that's all that's needed. No need to do more, just make sure the plan's available if you get inspected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Jul 07 - 09:48 PM Bless you, Don. A program I really enjoy on TV is "Little People, Big World." It covers a family, half of whose members are dwarves. The hubby has a lucrative business selling an accessibility kit to hotels/motels for making their rooms accessible to little people. In one episode they show us the commercial they're filming to promote their handy and very affordable kit. Their angle is the insurance liability of little people having to climb on slippery bathtubs in order to reach those pretty hotel-towel displays.... the potentially-expensive, risky contortions people are already doing while out on business travel, just to use the rooms provided. Next we see, in the program, one hotel CEO view the commercial..... I almost peed my pants as he saw these "actors" simply showing the reality of visiting the hotel without such a kit. Their businesslike approach to accessibility was really inspiring-- reminding me that to leverage change, there are always many, MANY avenues. So-- I'm thinking of inviting a few local celebs to spend a day in a wheelchair as my guest, for a little tour of the area. With photog and reporter along of course. Then I'll simply send the DVD of all the "fun" to the managers of the facilities we visit, with a non-confrontational card enclosed offering a few affordable ideas to help them avoid future embarrassment and lost business. Somehow I don't think they'd like a card "Handicapped Not Wanted" pasted on their doors next to the MasterCard logo. Because as you say, it's not meanness as much as not-thinkingness. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Sorcha Date: 01 Jul 07 - 09:54 PM Don't forget the motel rooms that are 'acessible'....but the wheel chair hight sink has a knock board in front of it. If you are chair bound and leave your personal Pull Ropes on the bed, the bed will NOT be made up...personal items on the bed. Shower in an acessible room? Just forget it, esp. if you are alone. My personal favourite locally is the handicap room on the second floor. Don, I truly hope you gave the Pastor in Charge a day in your life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Rapparee Date: 01 Jul 07 - 10:03 PM You know, a lot of the things needed to make a place "accessible" are good sense just for people in general. Like the auto-opening doors I mentioned above. Chairs, yeah. But also people with their arms full, and as I said, mothers with strollers. Why have tubs in so many motel rooms, anyway? I don't know of anyone who's taken a bath in a motel in years...and if you need one, ask for a room with one. (As a side note, we're off to Alberta the end of July (meeting in Edmonton) and my wife and I are surprised at the HUGE number of lodgings listed as "2 story, no elevator." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Sorcha Date: 01 Jul 07 - 10:12 PM Yea! And while yer at it, put the bar/lounge on the ground floor!!!! Oh...ps....nearly forgot...better get rid of all the pools, spas, etc in public motels...somebody might ignore the sign and drown in one. And, what is this new trend with all ceramic floor tile? Do you have ANY idea how slick that stuff really is? Esp when wet????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Rapparee Date: 01 Jul 07 - 10:21 PM And cold, too! I slipped in one of those motel bathrooms with a tile floor and they should be DAMNED glad I was only bruised. I ended up flat on my back, starkers, having just stepped out of the shower. This was an "ADA Room" so I had room to fall without knocking my head on something hard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Sorcha Date: 01 Jul 07 - 10:26 PM And, I just have to love the newer signs in the Handicap spots...they also read Or Student Drivers. Student Drivers need close in parking?????? Eh????? WALK ya lazy brats. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: TRUBRIT Date: 01 Jul 07 - 10:38 PM During the five years we lived in back in England, I was working for the world's largest Disability insurance carrier. In my last year there = when they were not sure what to do with me , one of my tasks was checking out the building for 'disability access'.......I had one guest who disappeared in his wheelchair into the men'sroom and was so long in there I sent in a search party == turned out the loo door was just too darn heavy for him to operate it and he was trapped in there til I sent in the US Marines......... We are insulting and inconsiderate to the 'differently abled'...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Ebbie Date: 02 Jul 07 - 12:44 AM A few years back I had read an article or seen something on television - I no longer remember which - that said that they had discovered that many handicap stalls in public bathrooms don't have a door handle on the level needed for the person in a wheelchair. The next time I went to my public library I checked- bingo! They were mortified when I told them and they said they would take care of it right away. And they did. The house museum that I lived in and used to operate did not have a code bathroom but there was room, just barely, for a wheelchair. In the 12 years I lived there I had only three people visit in wheelchairs . One was a volunteer docent whom I had recruited, one was a young woman I met downtown and invited up the hill and one was a guy who had been sent to ascertain that it was accessible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: wysiwyg Date: 02 Jul 07 - 12:53 AM Oh yeah, it's also very funny to me that every handicap stall I've ever seen has a nice, high hook for a handbag or coat, and often there will be a nice handi sink with handi levers for faucets.... but the towel rack is way up high. Or the handi sink will have a faucet set way, way back with an automatic-on sensor that you have to be standing upright to activate. Sure, the ADA's been satisfied so who cares? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Sandra in Sydney Date: 02 Jul 07 - 03:19 AM Some years back I was passing a ramp leading out of a hospital when a man in a wheelchair was leaving. He commented to his wife that once again the designers/builders had not tried it with a wheelchair as the slope was wrong, so I looked at ramps with a different eye after that. It's often the same with exits from pavements/sidewalks. I use a trolley to carry my groceries & often find it's easier to pull my trolley up the step than use the lovely little ramps they scoop out of the footpath cos they often don't end flush on the road. Another problem here is taxi drivers illegally refusing to carry guide dogs. A recent story about tis problem was illustrated by a friend & her dog. She leaves her dog at home when she goes to folk clubs & singing sessions & is normally led around by her husband, & on the few occasions I've done so, I really had to look at my surroundings with different eyes. sandra ======================= Talking Wheelchair Blues by Fred Small I went for a jog in the city air I met a woman in a wheelchair I said "I'm sorry to see you're handicapped." She says "What makes you think a thing like that?" And she looks at me real steady And she says, "You want to drag?" So she starts to roll and I start to run And she beat the pants off my aching buns You know going uphill I'd hit my stride But coming down she'd sail on by! When I finally caught up with her She says "Not bad for somebody ablebodied. You know, with adequate care and supervision You could be taught simple tasks. So how about something to eat?" I said that'd suit me fine "We're near a favorite place of mine." So we mosied on over there But the only way in was up a flight of stairs. "Gee, I never noticed that," says I. "No problem," the maitre d' replies. "There's a service elevator around the back." So we made it upstairs on the elevator With the garbage, flies, and last week's potatoes I said "I'd like a table for my friend and me." He says "I'll try to find one out of the way." Then he whispers, "Uh, is she gonna be sick, I mean, pee on the floor or throw some kind of fit?" I said "No, I don't think so, I think she once had polio. But that was twenty years ago. You see, the fact of the matter is, If the truth be told, She can't walk. So he points to a table, she wheels her chair Some people look down and others stare And a mother grabs her little girl Says "Keep away, honey, that woman's ill." We felt right welcome. Then a fella walks up and starts to babble About the devil and the holy bible Says "Woman, though marked with flesh's sin, Pray to Jesus, you'll walk again!" Then the waiter says "What can I get for you?" I said "I'll have your best imported brew." And he says "What about her?" I say "Who?" He says "Her." "Oh, you mean my friend here." He says "Yeah." I say "What about her?" "Well, what does she want?" "Well, why don't you ask her?" Then he apologizes. Says he never waited on a cripple before. We immediately nominated him for Secretary of the Interior. Well, she talked to the manager when we were through She says "There're some things you could do To make it easier for folks in wheelchairs." He says "Oh, it's not necessary. Handicapped never come here anyway." Well, I said goodnight to my newfound friend I said, "I'm beginning to understand A little bit of how it feels To roll through life on a set of wheels." She says "Don't feel sorry, don't feel sad, I take the good along with the bad I was arrested once at a protest demo And the police had to let me go. See, we were protesting the fact That public buildings weren't wheelchair accessible. Turned out the jail was the same way. Anyway, I look at it this way-- In fifty years you'll be in worse shape than I am now. See, we're all the same, this human race. Some of us are called disabled. And the rest-- Well, the rest of you are just temporarily able-bodied." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Liz the Squeak Date: 02 Jul 07 - 04:19 AM I'm a trained risk assessor and the Union Health and Safety Rep for our building. The more I see of this 'DDA' stuff (Disability & Discrimination Act), the more I want to a) piss myself laughing at its inadequacies, b) slap the designers upside the head several times with a DDA Compliancy handbook (hardback for preference) and c) make every architect and designer spend a month in a wheelchair AND on crutches before they so much as put pencil to paper (or finger to mouse...). The stupidity of our building amazes me. We have one floor where the only bathroom stall big enough for wheelchair users is down a dogleg corridor that is narrow for able bodied people. The door opens outwards only so far, as the sinks are in the way. Once out of the cubicle, the door must be shut before you can reach the hand dryer, requiring a 180degree turn in a confined space and then in reverse to get out. The button to open the disabled entrance door is about 10 ft away from the door. If you're on crutches, you have to let go a crutch, hit the button (too low for an elbow, too high for a knee), pick up the crutch, hobble to the door and get there just as it closes. They fixed that one after I jammed it with a crutch. The underground car park has spaces for disabled drivers but no signs to tell you where the disabled access to the building is - it's actually a goods lift and as such, is not labelled as a disabled access. You need a key from reception to use it. How do you get to reception located on the ground floor of the building? You wheel/hobble up the ramp that every other car is driving down, or you hobble up the stairs. Our foyer has a reception desk which used to be in the centre until the foyer was redesigned 4 years ago. It's now to one side of it, immediately opposite a set of doors to the outside. These doors are locked closed in winter because the receptionists feel the cold. There is another set of doors a few yards further down, but they are inadequate for the number of people who work there (32 floors with an average of 80 people per floor, not including visitors). Consequently they use the disabled access doors and wonder why they break every 3 weeks in winter. Visiting the Union HQ with a friend who was wheelchair bound after an accident, we found that the fire escape had a well designed ramp leading from it to safety on the outside... on the inside, there were two hefty steps up to the emergency exit. The lift, big enough to fit a wheelchair and little else, had call buttons that were too high for the wheelchair user to reach and doors that closed fairly rapidly before he'd got his leg (which was sticking out in front - really bad break) in properly. Just because a building is DDA compliant, doesn't mean it's useable. Whoever makes these laws should think twice about the people who will be using them. I refer you again to point c) above. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Liz the Squeak Date: 02 Jul 07 - 04:20 AM And don't get me started on the facilities for the partially sighted -or lack of them!!! LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Megan L Date: 02 Jul 07 - 04:28 AM That sounds about average Liz. I am so sick of having to tak dauvitt through alleyways and up in service lifts like we were non people. Our town is so old and awkward even able bodied folk can have problems. The worst offence was the new sports centre cinema complex they built in the main town access is hellish and thats a new building there is no excuse. all most wheelchair users as is for people to remember that they are people too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: JohnInKansas Date: 02 Jul 07 - 05:07 AM One thing I've noticed that's quite common is a lot of places where EXIT DOORS all seem to have automatic openers, but ENTRANCE DOORS do not. Needless to say the automatic Exit doors will not open when approached from the outside. Perhaps they're trying to offer a message? A particular peculiarity is found at two of the Walmart stores in town. There is a separate "handicap" door with an automatic opener that can be used for entry - if you can reach the button. The handicap door, however, is approximately 40 yards from the main entrance, and admits one to a narrow hallway leading back (about 40 yards) to just inside the main entrance/exit. The hallway is where they have the drink machines, and while it is probably wide enough for a wheelchair if no one's getting a drink it obviously is NOT wide enough for a wheelchair to pass a standing person, or someone going the other way, without maneuvering past very carefully. The interior hallway seems to be where the young and healthy workers (both of them) like to "dump" small things that get in the way in the main store, so there's frequently significant clutter. Two wheel chairs meeting each other would be a total lockup, as one would have to turn around or back out for the other to pass. Ah yes, and all 24 of the "handicap parking" spaces are directly in front of the main entrance - 40 yards from the "handicap entrance." There is a nice ramp (obviously really a shopping cart ramp) at the main entrance, but none near the HC entrance, but if you ramp up onto the sidewalk at the main entrance, you usually must thread your way through the "out-front" display of lawnmowers, potted plants, fertilizer, etc., and frequently there is no outside path you could get a chair through. But once inside, you can borrow one of their electric carts (with about 60% odds the battery will last just long enought to get you to the middle of the store - but not back). I really do think maybe they're trying, but unfortunately they're not doing much thinking in the process. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Liz the Squeak Date: 02 Jul 07 - 05:13 AM It's the age old problem of being given a target, we shall call it 'A', and a solution 'C' and working out the quickest way to get there, via 'B', when in fact, there is also the option of 'Z, Y, X' and so back. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Sorcha Date: 02 Jul 07 - 08:46 AM So, why CAN'T there be a 2 semester class in design, architect, whatever school where all the students MUST spend all their time being 'disabled'. I guess we could let them be 'normal' after they go home for the day BUT.... Our secondary school here has a Parenting Class and the kids are given robot dolls. They do all the things real babies do, and the caretakers response is recorded. 24/7 for 3 weeks....school, concerts, overnight, sitters allowed, but if the sitter doesn't push the right button.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: wysiwyg Date: 02 Jul 07 - 08:56 AM Another funny thing is how people will bow and scrape and apologize if you come anywhere near them on a handi scooter. People on scooters have to wait their turn to get at the good dogfood just like everyone else, but we're comfortable while we're doing it cuz we're sitting down! [shaking head] ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Rapparee Date: 02 Jul 07 - 09:17 AM Shucks, ~S~, I'm more concerned about them folks runnin' over my toes. 8-) I give 'em the right-of-way out of courtesy, just as I'd give it to 'most anyone. I'm flat-out sick of discourtesy to anybody, and I can at least attempt to open doors for people, let people go first, and do suchlike little civilities. Heck, I'm a librarian, not a politician! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: wysiwyg Date: 02 Jul 07 - 10:10 AM Let's unpack that a little bit, just for the sake of discussion. ... I give 'em the right-of-way out of courtesy, just as I'd give it to 'most anyone ... But what if the scooter-rider is trying to let YOU go first? How come the more able-bodied think it's up to them to decide a scooter needs their courtesy? I'm telling you, when I'm on foot no one hurries out of the way for me to go first, but on the scooter, I will be apologized to by people who think they're in my way, by just about every shopper I pass. It's just weird-- because apparently none of these nice people design the ADA accommodations. The same good sense and manners evident in the population (as guilt) are not matched by the facilities. It's weird! As my rehab and fitness advance, some days I'm walking in a big store and some days I'm scootering. It's weird, I tell you, weird! Or look at it this way. The difficulty I have one day might be leg-related, and another day it might be back-related. There've been days when the BEST thing I could do for the injury was stand up, hop off the scooter, reach for a high item, and get it down for myself. And get right back on, to scooter off to the next department. But before I can even pick out what I want, somebody is reaching up, unasked, to grab an item for me. It's weird! Of course I thank them, or give a cheery "no thanks" to offers that aren't actually helpful, but it's weird! A whole set of rigid assumptions kick in at the sight of the scooter. The converse also is true-- an elderly friend likes to walk, but he's very unsteady and slow. Does he get respect, help, or courtesy? No, because he's not on a scooter. So for trying to walk and keep his fitness at least where it is, he's run over. Weird! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Liz the Squeak Date: 02 Jul 07 - 12:44 PM My mother uses a wheelchair and when I took her shopping, I got sick of people talking to me when it was her that wanted the item and had the money to pay. In the end I'd wheel her to the queue and leave her there. She got treated like a human and I didn't get caught in the 'does she take sugar' rut. I'll say something like 'alright there mate?' if I think they may require assistance, but I tend not to go right in for the 'I'll get that for you' because although they may need help, they don't always want help. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: gnu Date: 02 Jul 07 - 01:15 PM The National Building Code of Canada is excellent when it comes to accessibility in public buildings and our transportation sysytems. We have come a long way in the past thirty years. However, it really steams me that the code doesn't require new residential construction to comply. Imagine the cost to make it so, amortized over 100 years, compared to the cost of initial construction.... a pittance! Idiots! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: wysiwyg Date: 02 Jul 07 - 03:14 PM That feels exactly right, Liz. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Don Firth Date: 02 Jul 07 - 03:44 PM Harking back to the accessibility workshop that I attended at the synod meeting, during the discussion of church facilities installing ramps and such things as sound systems with earphones for the hard-of-hearing, one pastor commented that, as far as his church was concerned, all of this discussion was academic. There would be no point in his church going to the expense of building ramps or installing other facilities because there were no disabled people in his congregation. Well, now! That's when I think I got in one of my better licks. I stuck up my hand and asked him, "Have you seen the movie 'Field of Dreams?'" (The movie had just come out a couple of years before). He blinked at me, a bit befuddled. Several other people smiled, nodded, and chuckled. "I don't understand your question," the pastor said. "'Build it,'" I quoted, "'and they will come.'" Public rest rooms are veritable vortex of design boo-boos. I don't know about the rest of the world, but in this area, the rest rooms in McDonald's Drive-Ins are always reliable. Usually two booths, one standard and one large enough to back a wheelchair up parallel to the toilet, complete with raised seat and grab bars. Not that I eat at McDonald's all that often, but if I'm out and in search of a rest room, I can usually rely on McDonald's. Others, however. . . . At that same synod conference, I made my way to a rest room that had the blue and white wheelchair logo on the door. It was indeed equipped with a wide booth, a raised toilet seat, and grab bars. But the booth door swung inward rather than outward. When I backed my wheelchair into the booth, I couldn't close the door. I wasn't concerned with modesty. The problem was that the door was between my wheelchair and the toilet. I couldn't transfer to the toilet because the bloody door was in the way! And I couldn't swing the door shut because it was blocked by my wheelchair. All they would have needed to do was mount the door so that it swung outward and it would have been fine. I did manage to make use of the facility (desperation can inspire ingenuity) by removing my detachable footrests to decrease the size of my chair, swing my legs off to one side, and horse the chair back and forth several times like trying to squeeze a car into a very small parking space, until I was able to squeeze the door past the chair (removing a bit of paint from both!). When finished, I transferred back to the wheelchair and repeated the horsing back and forth until I got the door between me and the toilet again, reattached my footrests, and emerged from the booth like the Batmobile exiting the Bat Cave. Now, my arms and shoulders are (were) pretty strong, so I was able to manage the contortions it took. But not everyone could have managed that. Another public rest room I find most interesting is in the Cabrini Medical Tower not too far from where I live. The booth is plenty large, with raised seat and grab bars, and the door to the booth opens outward. Hosanna! Just as it should be. But you have to enter a small alcove and make a ninety-degree turn through a narrow doorway to get into the rest room in the first place. Can't do it in a wheelchair! Yes, it is a medical office building. Life is a cabaret. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Rapparee Date: 02 Jul 07 - 04:13 PM No, no, no! NOT because you're in a scooter or a chair or something, but because you're a human being and deserve courtesy as such! I also hold the door (for example) for the so-called "able-bodied." For some reason this area just teems with incivilities, impolitenesses, and discourtesies, especially towards women. A man will walk directly into a woman who is standing out of the way and when he passes her he gives her a nasty look as if she should apologize to him. I do my best to fight this by trying to be courteous to everyone, not just someone who happens to be a woman, or in a chair, or on crutches, or carrying something, but because they are human beings and, if you like, made in the image and likeness of the Creator. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: SharonA Date: 02 Jul 07 - 04:57 PM The company for whom I once worked went through a brief period of expansion, during which the department I worked in was transferred from the one-story main building to a "second-floor" office above their new retail store. I put "second-floor" in quotes because the height of the first floor was two stories, and we had to go up two flights' worth of stairs to get to the office area. There were no elevators or escalators. There were two stairways: one was a fire-exit hallway littered with fallen ceiling tile damaged by the perpetually-leaking roof; the other was an open metal staircase leading up from the floor of the warehouse behind the store. I have respiratory problems (sarcoidosis and asthma) and the warehouse was so filthy and dusty that I couldn't enter it, much less walk the length of it to get to the staircase, much much less climb those stairs hyperventilating all that dust. I had to fight the Human Resources department to get permission to use the fire-exit staircase, the air of which contained dust and mold from the crumbling, wet ceiling tile and was likewise difficult to breathe in. I have lupus and often use a cane to walk, and I had great difficulty negotiating those stairs. An older co-worker had an operation on her foot and had to negotiate the metal stairs in a cast and crutches for several weeks. Human Resources promised us repeatedly that an elevator would be installed, but that never happened. And -- you guessed it -- the bathrooms in the office area were handicapped accessible, railings and all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: wysiwyg Date: 02 Jul 07 - 05:04 PM You might convince me of that in person, because if you come across as you I think you mean to across, you would stand out from the crowd. But please understand that on the scooter, one is surrounded by smarm. And it's weird! Try it sometime and you will see. (If I'm there, I'll race ya.) That's another funny thing. One day when I was feeling particularly "able," I hopped on the scooter anyway because my elderly friend hopped on one first-- he'd just been in hospital and he was having dizzy spells. So I thought it would be fun to go on the buddy system-- and I was worried he'd rush off ahead of me. (I was supposed to be keeping a close eye on him that particular day.) And here's the funny thing. One DARES not park HC unless one has the placard and looks HC, or people/cops'll getcha furrit. But the store in question has so many scooters that nobody cares how HC you are. (We could take the next Gathering group there for overnight races, I'm sure.) But once you're on the scooter-- there's the bowing and scraping from fellow shoppers, no matter how obviously you're just playing and having fun. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Megan L Date: 02 Jul 07 - 05:12 PM there are serveral scooters in our small scheme of houses. One night i looked out the window and here were two old men racing down the middle of the road, into the turning place and back up talk about boy racers sheesh |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Jul 07 - 05:16 PM It's better than it used to be, but a long way from how it should be, and so patchy. The important thing is to recognise it as a matter of civil rights and be ready to get bloody bolshie - and that applies more especially to those of us who aren't directly affected. Here's a link to a page about a great disability civil rights singer and songwriter called Johnny Crescendo (AKA Alan Holdsworth) who emigrated from England a few years ago, and now lives in Philadelphia. I only just found that out from this page - I'd wondered where he'd vanished to. I remember a great series of sets he did at Cambridge a few years back, and a memorable party afterwards. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: wysiwyg Date: 02 Jul 07 - 05:17 PM Cross-posted with Sharon.... my post of 05:04 PM was to Rap. Megan, one day Hardi's dad took off on his scooter and created massive havoc at a shopping mall. He was very bad! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Megan L Date: 02 Jul 07 - 05:20 PM Its a boy thing their legs might give out but they still like their toys :) |
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Subject: Dad's Scooter From: wysiwyg Date: 02 Jul 07 - 07:17 PM Well, it was like this. Apparently Hardi's dad was pretty upset that the little narrow boutique store he'd zoomed off to was too narrow for a comfy turn, so he rammed his way through several racks of ladies handbags as he backed and retired several times. The horrified salesman minding the store was still in shock by the time Hardi, following the trail, got there; by then Dad had moved on to God knows where, still in search of the perfect birthday present for Mom. When Hardi got him home, oddly enough Mom didn't get a report on this event..... but I understand there was quite a lecture in the car, Son to Father. Dad's gone now, but I bet that handbag boutique still warns new employees about him! Boy, those privately-owned scooters really can go. On one of our last visits with him, Dad had gone off for his aftenoon jaunt around the neighborhood. Mom had taken away his car keys a few years before, so the deal was that he'd not steal them back as long as she didn't say a WORD about the daily sidewalk scootering. And she never did, even after he knocked himself over in the neighbor's yard a couple of times. Anyway, this one summer afternoon he took off on time and, right after he left, a really bad Midwest plains storm blew up. Cold, cold air. Pressure dropping as the green-black wind blew in. Dad had only been wearing a shirt and trousers. We were worried. He was beyond frail.... Now, I'd taken care of Dad a couple of times by then on my own. Mom was afraid that going out to get him would break their deal. But the sky was so bad, I knew we needed to go get him. I said I'd take care of it. As the skies opened, we came across Dad at the far end of the 'hood. I jumped out and ran up to him. "I wanna go for a RIDE!" I yelled through the screeching wind. "Good idea!" he growled, and got off. "I brought Mom! Can you ride back with her?" "OK!" he replied, and he let me take him to the car. Off they went. Mom gets a little case of leadfoot when she's nervous. I'm sure he was yelling at her for it, too. As the cold rain soaked me, I faced a grim reality: I'd never operated that scooter, and I had NO IDEA where I was within their suburban maze. I finally figured out how to make it go, and man! It was fast! Instead of turning around as Dad would likely have done to go home, I went on in the same direction because the place is basically a big oval we'd driven a million times. But it looks different from scooter-level. I took the wrong fork at the fork. So about 20 minutes later I rounded a bend, and thank God I could actually SEE the house. You know, them scooters don't have windshields, and my glasses were a wet haze. Eyes full of hard-hitting raindrops. Well, Dad was waiting inside the door. He wasn't worried about me, tho everyone else was. "Have a good ride?" he growled, with a twinkly grin. "Sure did!" I grinned back. I always did like being out in a thunderstorm. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Liz the Squeak Date: 03 Jul 07 - 12:13 PM Don - "Not that I eat at McDonald's all that often, but if I'm out and in search of a rest room, I can usually rely on McDonald's." That's call a 'McDump'... entering a fast food restaurant with the sole purpose of using the facilities. When I worked in a library near a McD's, we would always advise our disabled customers to go to their bathrooms rather than use ours as - you guessed it - it had an inward opening door that even able bodied people had trouble with. If you pushed it hard enough, it wedged on the sink (wash basin). LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Jack Campin Date: 03 Jul 07 - 12:52 PM Some designers seem to have a great time making their accessibility features for one kind of disability into inconveniences or deathtraps for others. A lot of wheelchair ramps are positioned just right to trip a blind person over and send them down a stairwell or under the wheels of a truck. I was getting on a bus with a blind friend a few weeks ago, and the driver fired the wheelchair ramp straight out from under the doorway and nearly smashed her ankles with it. She has no problem at all with steps (blind people don't, unless they have some other disability as well). The driver said it was standing orders to operate the ramp whenever a disabled person is at the stop. Fortunately most of the company's drivers have the sense to realize how stupid the standing orders are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: wysiwyg Date: 03 Jul 07 - 01:01 PM [shaking head] ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Megan L Date: 03 Jul 07 - 01:34 PM Got to take a minute to praise the good. for dauvitts birthday i took him out for lunch at the sands bar in Burray. We went in the same door as everyone else as we entered the dining room one of the waitresses spotted us and with no fuss lifted a chair away from a table to the side before we arrived so he could go right to his place at table like any other customer. Three chears for the good guys the staff were all young but someone had obviously spent some time with them on the importance of customer care. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 03 Jul 07 - 01:52 PM There is a classic story of Tammy Wynette taking George Jones' keys way because he was drunk. He took the riding mower into Nashville on the median strip. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Liz the Squeak Date: 04 Jul 07 - 02:41 AM Good one Megan - I hope you had a good meal too! All it needs is something that cannot be taught but you can't survive long without it:~ A little common sense, the ability to realise that the path from A to C may not always include B and the courage to do what is sensible, not what is right. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Jul 07 - 12:50 PM Some of you may enjoy the correspondence that has developed since I began this thread. Or not-- this is a long paste. I've edited out the respondent's name and email address. ~Susan Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 7:52 PM To: Webmaster NAB02 Subject: Handicap Accessibility? How do I search online for HC accessibility of Army Corps facilities? Just arrived home after disappointing 2 hour drive to try a public swimming beach that..... isn't. ~Susan Hinton Mansfield, PA === Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 3:47 PM Subject: Handicapped Accessibility at US Army Corps of Engineers Lakes Dear Ms. Hinton, Thank you for your e-mail inquiry of July 1st regarding access to recreation facilities at US Army Corps of Engineers lakes for persons with disabilities. We regret that the beach you visited did not meet your needs. Corps projects throughout the country are in various stages of transition to upgrade recreation facilities for persons with disabilities. Web site information may not always accurately reflect improvements that have been made. To insure that your next visit is a satisfactory one, you may wish to contact the project directly to inquire if they can accommodate your needs. My services are available as well to assist you with any needs you may have for recreation facilities managed by the Baltimore District. We appreciate your interest in our lakes and hope your next visit fulfills your recreational needs. Sincerely, Ms. C[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Recreation Planner/ECC === Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 7:40 PM Subject: Re: Handicapped Accessibility at US Army Corps of Engineers Lakes Ms. C[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx], Thank you so much for your prompt and delightful reply! As a matter of fact, none of the websites I visited for individual projects mention accessibility at all. Although mobility-impaired, I aqua-jog for charity. One donor has challenged my portability by offering a donation for every different swimming location I use over the summer. I would certainly like to include as many swimming beaches as possible, if you can provide a list of those that provide a HC parking space at water level with minimal distance to the shore. Example: Ives Run at Hammond Lake in Tioga County is one with just-manageable distances. If there are others in the Baltimore district we will plan our travels accordingly. I'm also interested in working with other disabled folks who might benefit from aquatics, on a charitable basis. So although my own needs might be at one level, I'll also need to have an accurate idea about what I might invite others to attempt. Is there a policy about press coverage and photographs I need to know about? Local PR is already underway and I'd like to keep my charity efforts in the public eye. Thanks again, ~Susan http://groups.msn.com/aquabucks/_whatsnew.msnw === Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 10:41 AM Subject: RE: Handicapped Accessibility at US Army Corps of Engineers Lakes Ms. Hinton, Please accept my invitation to talk with you personally. A conversation with you will allow me to have a better idea of your needs. Would you please forward your phone number and a time that is most convenient for me to call you? Thank you. Ms. C[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Recreation Planner/ECC === Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 11:28 AM To: Ms. C[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Recreation Planner/ECC Subject: Re: Handicapped Accessibility at US Army Corps of Engineers Lakes Sorry, I can't. Our rural phone is so full of static we use it for emergencies only. I just need a list of Baltimore District swimming beaches that include HC parking with flat, short walking access to the water that I could manage with a walker or wheeling someone in a chair. ~S~ === Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 11:31 AM Subject: RE: Handicapped Accessibility at US Army Corps of Engineers Lakes Susan, Can you define what distance you can manage from the parking space to the water's edge? Ms. C[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Recreation Planner/ECC === Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 11:46 AM Subject: Re: Handicapped Accessibility at US Army Corps of Engineers Lakes Not without going back to Ives Run to measure it. If the Hammond Lake site map includes the parking lot and the beach, that ought to give you an idea. Thanks, ~Susan === Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 1:39 PM Subject: RE: Handicapped Accessibility at US Army Corps of Engineers Lakes Ms. Hinton, I am making further inquiries on both the beach access and press coverage. I hope to get back to you within a few days. Thank you. Ms. C[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Recreation Planner/ECC ==== Well.... :~) THAT could take awhile. I anticipate she'll have an opportunity to discover how really NOT even-minimally-accessible their facilities are. In the meantime, SHE's doing all the work, because their website doesn't include ANY information on possibilitities to contact! She's been copying all this to her higher-ups, as well. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: JennyO Date: 05 Jul 07 - 01:44 AM Good, Susan. Make them work! They might even learn something. I had a rare opportunity a few years ago to see things from a wheelchair-bound point of view. I had just broken my ankle and was at a folk festival. I had also hurt my shoulder shortly before the break, so I couldn't use crutches for long without aggravating that injury so I opted for hiring a wheelchair. Some of the members of my choir had offered to take turns pushing me around because the ground was a bit uneven to allow too much of my own pushing. It was 'fun' getting up on stage for the performances! I would stand for short periods with my crutches, then take a rest and sit down. Certain songs really required standing - it's no good singing the Internationale and Solidarity Forever sitting down! "Arise, arise, oh Jenny on your crutches....." Anyway, what was really enlightening was when I was watching other performances from the edge of the venue - you couldn't get the wheelchair in because there was a ridge at the doorway. People stood in front of me like I wasn't even there, completely blocking my view. It was like because I wasn't eyeball to eyeball with them, I didn't exist. These are folkies, who I would have hoped were a bit more socially aware than the average. Not in that case. Even on another occasion one night when I went out with friends, at one stage they stood in a circle talking and didn't seem to notice I was excluded. Probably a good thing I have different friends now. Not a pleasant feeling, and I feel sad for people who have to cope with this kind of ignorance on a daily basis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: wysiwyg Date: 05 Jul 07 - 10:10 AM A disabled lady with season tix to local hockey arrives in the midst of the pre-game warmup skate. Her seats are right on the glass, so people from all over the arena's seating areas pour down there to press noses to the glass for that skate. She just bulls right in, announcing, "You're standing in my seats, please move out of the way," from her motorized chair. When we're able to go, we sit there too, on the folding chairs that section offers... It's much harder to clear the crowd to get to the glass we've paid to sit by, though. Hardi walks up brandishing a folded chair and starts to unfold it (enlarging it) in such close proximity to the people that they edge out of the way, and he smiles and explains, "Oh, I'm sorry-- these are our seats." Simply sitting BEHIND them never got us any consideration... One night though the throng included a small little boy, just tall enough to see over the boards. Once we'd cleared the glass and sat, and people crowded around behind us so they could still see, he just looked bereft-- a real budding fan, there; maybe a future hockey player. And shorter than my seated line of sight. So I reached out and scooped him to stand in front of me-- why not?!?!?!? Even in today's "don't touch my child" atmosphere. And his folks were great. When they left for the start of the game, to go back to their seats, instead of making the big deal of "Say thanks to the lady," the parents gave us a special smile and said quietly, "Thanks, that meant a lot to him." Now THAT's courtesy-- I HATE that thing where parents try to make their kids say "the right thing." "What do you say," "Thank the lady," -- any of that stuff. Like the kids are doing something wrong when what is wanted is not to stop doing a wrong thing but to start doing a right thing. When I moved him up, that little kid's smile of thanks was enough, really! I often post here about the regular human beans caught inside various situations, and that Rec Planner who's working on my "needs" is a just a human bean trying to do her job every day, too. I read up on what the Rec Planner does at that org-- she's really going above and beyond, not because SHE made the glitch in their accessibility, but because she's very customer-service oriented. It turned out she's pretty cool (understatement and thank you Google), and it's always good to make a friend. This AM's email included a referral beyond their own system to a good facility in a different gummint facility. We're also exploring the mechanism by which private grant funding can be used for "improvements" at a gummint facility-- Hardi sits on a local board. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 05 Jul 07 - 06:44 PM Architects are primarily interested in being "different" enough from the competition, to build a reputation for innovation, this being the best means of getting those Oh so lucrative public works contracts. Their results do tend, however, to be puzzling at times. Les Barker summed it up pretty neatly, I thought. Last night I dreamed I had a dream, in cold, electric blue, I dreamed I met the architect who puts fittings in the loo, And I found that he could do the thing the rest of us can't do, Press down the tap with one hand, WHILE WASHING THE OTHER TWO. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Bobert Date: 05 Jul 07 - 06:48 PM Well, ADA, ain't the "four letter" word that some builders and renovators have made it out to be... On new construction there is abosolutely ***no excuse** for not being ADA complient however... ...in old buildings sometimes it can be very difficult and not feisable from strickly an economic view point... I own two old buildings and have "changed the occupancy" in both... "Change of occupancy" is the kicker in the old buildings and in lots of small towns old buildings are being renovated and shops and restuarants are going in areas where they didn't use to be... When this occurs, ADA kicks in... That's fine with me... I am fully supportive of ADA... But sometimes it's the buildings themselves that just won't cooperate and for this reason the ICC Historic Buildings code book allows local zoning people to not hold to the strictest of standards... Example: One of my buildings is an old Ford dealership that was built in the 30's and has a bathroom with a 32" door... Problem is that it's door header is metal and the door is located in a bearing wall... The walls of the bath room are concrete and support a poured concrete 2nd floor where the boiler once sat... I can't cut out the door way without seriously jeopradizing the structural integrity of the poured concrete 2nd floor... So, I showed it to the zoning people and they agreed that I shouldn't try enlarging the door to ADA standard which I believe is 4 inches wider... Now I could, of course, bring in a jack hammer and tie a new bathroom into the closest avilable sewer line which is about 100 feet away which would involve tearing up 100 feet of parking lot... Cost to add ADA bathroom with 36 inch door: about $40,000 just to gain 4 inches of door... The problem is that in most of these small towns it's moms 'n pops who are doing these renovations and mom's 'n pops just ain't that well capitalized to take old buildings and bring them 100% into complience... Now, I don't know, WYSuzie, if you went to a small old town or what but I just thought I'd share some insights from "the other side"... BTW, I am also renovating an old (1833) hotel and have figured out how to get it up to 100% ADA complient on the 1st floor where there will be a market and several shops... Took a lot of head scracthin'... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Liz the Squeak Date: 06 Jul 07 - 05:22 AM We have the same problem with Limpit's school. The building is over 100yrs old, has 3 main floors and 3 mezzanines. There are staircases to the main floors at either end of the building with one additional stair leading to the second main floor and all 3 mezzanines in the centre of the long side. Each floor has 8 classrooms opening onto a central hall with offices, staff rooms, storerooms and cloakrooms on the mezzanine levels. There is presently no reception area so visitors have to buzz in. The buzzers are situated about 4.6ft up the wall so the children don't play with them. The main outside doors to the staircases are double doors with 6-8 steps leading up to them. There are 3 smaller doors in the front of the building. One is for the nursery only and is restricted. A wheelchair can fit through the other doors in the front and use the bottom classrooms and hall, but all other rooms are reached by stairs. There are no disabled toilet facilities - indeed, there is only one 'adult' toilet on the 2 mezzanines, with all children's facilities on the ground floor. However, we do have braille markings on many of the doors as the school presently has a partially sighted student. There is a special 'tactile' room where the differently abled children are given alternative lessons and attention. When a child with special needs is accepted into the school, every effort is made to adapt the facilities to their needs - we never say 'you can't bring your disabled child, we don't have a ramp'. We've just been given funding and the go-ahead to refurbish the front door this summer, so soon we'll have a disabled toilet, a reception area that wheelchair users (and short people) can use, refurbished children's toilets and a downstairs office. The gates are in full view of the reception so can be opened automatically from there if needed. There are ways to become DDA compliant (ADA if you prefer), but as Bobert says, it can be pretty costly. Just 'sticking a ramp in' doesn't cover half of it... In our case it's costing the local council/government about £500,000. That's about £200,000 more than it would if we weren't a listed building - any new structure has to be in keeping with the character of the rest of the building. We're not even allowed to paint our Victorian railings any shade but black now... they used to be such a pretty sky blue! A little aside here, the Headteacher, at a recent governors meeting reported that the 'school has been greatly enhanced by the addition of an electric fence'. We THINK she meant the inner 20ft security fencing with electronic gates... LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: JohnInKansas Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:57 PM But once you're on the scooter-- there's the bowing and scraping from fellow shoppers, no matter how obviously you're just playing and having fun. Perhaps it depends on regional differences, or there might possibly be an effect of individual personalities(?), but when LiK gets on one of Wallyworld's scooters the "crowd reaction" seems better described by something like "let's all quickly flee in terror." I have been trying to explain to her that although the scooters have "barrier penetration capabilities" vastly superior to that of the "old guy with the walker" it's a feature that should be used with some restraint, and that "shopping" is not meant to be a competitive event. Thus far there have been no documented injuries. ... ... ... Dispensing with the minor embellishments for the sake of a better story, I've found that people in my area take remarkably little notice of those who use the furnished aids or those who provide their own. Mostly they're no less polite to the "users," but not noticeably much more solicitous. It may relate to their being larger numbers using aids here, perhaps? It's not uncommon here to find "all in use" conditions for the aids provided by the retail stores, and almost impossible to find a time when there aren't more than half of the provided scooters "out on the floor" in stores that offer them. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Rapparee Date: 06 Jul 07 - 01:36 PM LTS, what sort of watchtowers does the school have? Do the students have to wear striped uniforms? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: wysiwyg Date: 06 Jul 07 - 03:57 PM It may relate to their being larger numbers using aids here, perhaps? Must be. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: Liz the Squeak Date: 06 Jul 07 - 04:57 PM The watchtowers are coming in the summer! LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: JohnInKansas Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:49 PM WYS - On the other hand it may be (some of) the people. A recent report, with most details appearing only in a brief local editorial, is that when a bleeding woman collapsed in a local "convenience store," after being stabbed outside, no fewer than five people stepped over her to make their purchases, and one person used a phonecam to take pictures (all these activities confirmed from surveillance video), before anyone even called 911. An unconfirmed report was that the phonecam pictures were posted on YouTube. The woman died from her injuries. Suspects (in the stabbing) arrested. Incident apparently forgotten. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Oct 07 - 02:43 PM "Ticketmaster does not sell HC tickets for this venue. Call the venue at: [number]." "The [venue] box office is closed or busy with another customer. The box office does not take phone orders." "[Venue Name], can I help you?" "I need HC tickets." "I'll connect you with the box office." ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:46 PM We're not even allowed to paint our Victorian railings any shade but black now... they used to be such a pretty sky blue! Maybe a vandal with a pot of blue paint some night might be the answer... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Handicap Accessibility From: JohnInKansas Date: 26 Oct 07 - 04:03 AM Not strictly a matter of handicap access, but more particularly on the subject of hanidcap mobility: A year ago, for Christmas, I bought LiK a "mobility scooter" specifically to help her to get around at the WVA Festival (Winfield). She has used it there for two years now, and it's been a great help for her. Quite likely, I'll be looking at getting one for myself before next year1, since the distances are substantial (relative to my mobilating capacity) between our campground, other campgrounds where the jamming takes place, and of course to the rarely visited grandstand area. The first time we took it to the festival, I took it when I went down to get in line, so I had a couple of weeks for try-outs and adjustments. It made the trip from the campsite to the Walmart/Dillons area, and to a couple of hardware/lumber/auto part stores a couple of times, so maximum range - with the then new batteries - probably approximates the advertised 10 miles. A round-trip to the shopping areas I visited was close to 5 miles, with a lot of detours due to bad surfaces, and some remarkable hills that one doesn't noticed when driving through in an auto. (We noticed some "fade" the second year, but not enough to hurt her use within the camping areas.) Her particular scooter is a "travel scooter" that breaks down for "easy transport(?)" in a typical automobile (if you're fairly clever about fitting things in). Unfortunately, it has the "small" (7") wheels, which make it extremely marginal on gravel roads or in rough grass. With its 1.5" ground clearance, a garden hose or heavy extension cord across a hard surfaced road (quite common at WVA) is an "impassible barrier" unless you can find a place off at the side of the road where the "cord" sinks in a bit. I got her scooter at Pep Boys Auto Parts, for $600. Apparently identical ones, at the same price, can be "web ordered" from Walgreens, Sams, or Costco - among others. An acquaintance at WVA the first year had one virtually identical to hers, through a medical supply outlet, paid by insurance/Medicare, that she recalled "was about $3,400." For those with the insurance, there is probably a substantial benefit in having a reputable and local service place, and some "support" for the vehicle. Lin's has NONE. My phone call to the distributor got the information that "There used to be a guy in Hutchinson (70 miles) who worked on them some." The address they gave me was on a street that according to current maps NEVER EXISTED, and they didn't have a phone number. Even at that, the difference in price seems a bit out of line. There actually were a few minor differences between the two scooters, but for the most part none that would be significant if one had a parts manual for either. MOST NECESSARY SERVICE on either could be done by any reasonably competent shade tree mechanic, but there seems to be a deliberate conspiracy among "medical suppliers" to prevent any information on the details from being available to users. Searching the web for circuitry details found nothing - except multiple warnings about dealers and their "maintenance scams." (Many of these were from UK sources.) Comments would be of interest. (?) 1 Pep Boys now has a "garden cart" with electric power, using the same control box, transaxle, and batteries as Lin's scooter, with BIG WHEELS, for $190. I may put a boat seat and tiller on one of those.!!! John |
