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BS: US Democracy on the ropes....
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Subject: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Bobert Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:25 PM Hmmmmmmmm??? I've been wondering why the US continues down the slippery slope toward right wing totalitarianism so... I did a little research and guess what I found out??? According to the US census and the 2004 election results the deck has been heavily stacked against progressives (blues states...) Consider these stats: 1. 16 "red' states, that combined have less population than one single blue state (California) control 32% of the Senate!!! 2. Looked at in 0different terms 11.21% of the US population controls 32% of the Senate while 12% of the population controls just 2% of the Senate!!! 3. Okay, if we look at the "red" state that has the fewest people (Wyoming) with just 515,004 people compared to California's 36,457,549 people in order for California to achieve parity in the Senate with Wyoming it would have to have 141 Senators, which is almost 1 and a half times more Senators than are now sitting as elected representatives... Hmmmmmmm??? The progressive's have been hood-winked by the rednecks and guess what folks??? And with the redistricting that the red states have been able to pull off, it is no wonder that the country is going backwards, loosing credibilty in the eyes of the world and is making one bad decision after another... Thi8s, my friends, is not "democracy"... It is just plain corruption and power grabbing... Like what makes the US think that "democracy" is all thast great for Middle Eastern countries when the US can't even make a feeble attempt to correct it's own flaws??? Just some things to think about... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: pdq Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:31 PM The US Senate has an imbalance in representation, but it favors the extreme northeast states. Last time I looked, 12 tiny states like Delaware, Rhode Island and Vermont held about one forth of the seats. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Rapparee Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:54 PM Ah, Bobert ol' buddy, the Senate is set up by the Constitution to allow two senators from any state. The House is supposed to be set up to allow proportional representation, stating ...The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty thousand, but each state shall have at least one Representative.... If we put the population of the US at 300,000,000, then there would be an awful lot of Representatives. The House itself voted to limit the number of Reps to the present 335 (or whatever it is). This was all hashed out in the Constitutional Convention, back in the 1780s. And it's why we have a bicameral legislative branch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Bobert Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:54 PM Look again, pdq... ***17*** of the 25 ***least*** populated states are "red" states!!! It's all there... Just google up "State Populations" and "2004 Election" and you'll see for yourself... This ain't no smoke and mirrors stats thing... This is thr real deal... |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Bobert Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:59 PM Ahhh, yeah, Rap.... No, argument here... ***But***, in the words of Tom Jefferson (paraphrase), "In oder for this thing (democracy) to work it's going to take an occasional revolution... Jefferson understood that things might need to be tweeked now and then... Heck, George Bush has tweeked the crud outta the Consitutionso if he can do it why is it unfathomable for the US to look at a failed system that favors ***unequal representaion*** and fix it??? If Tom Jefferson where around these days he'd be advocating just that!!! Fix it before it consumes you... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Rapparee Date: 27 Jun 07 - 09:50 PM Because, Bobert, the US is not, never was, and never was intended to be a democracy. It is now and has always been a republic. But I don't think that the problem is in the Constitution. Like so many religions, it's not in the basic teachings, but in the people that apply them. GWB & Co. certainly has played fast and loose with the Constitution. But that doesn't mean the document is bad, but that they have decided to "interpret" it in their own way and to benefit themselves at the expense of the nation as a whole. To put proportional representation into the Senate as well as the House would create, effectively, a unicameral legislature (like Nebraska has). And that would remove one of the checks and balances. For example: Taxation and other spending bills must, constitutionally, originate in the House, be passed there, move to the Senate, and pass there before going to the Prez for signature or veto. With a unicameral system you'd remove one of the hurdles such bills must now pass, which at least in my opinion would open the door to even more abuse than we now have. I'd be very, very careful before messing around the the Constitution for anything, and that includes abortion, flag burning, gay marriage, or anything else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:17 PM Much to my surprise, when I opened my eyes I was a victim of The Great Compromise John Prine |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: pattyClink Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:48 PM Interesting points. A lot of redstaters would disagree with the premise that leaning conservative is coequal with being a corrupt Bushite. IMHO it's not the conservative slant that has corrupted the system, it's the money and the corporations and the congressional tricks. Ponder the committee system and the way one guy can kill a bill. Then look at the constitution, where each senator gets one-one-hundredth of the votes. Not 'some gameplayer who stays around 32 years gets 100 votes and everybody else can get over it'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: GUEST,Texas Guest Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:07 PM Rapaire - you're right, it's not the document, it's the way certain folks are "using" it, and being allowed to use it. It's the same way with Christianity - over the eons so many negative things have been done in Christ's name that go directly against his teachings - it's a crime of humanity. I will end with what others have written before - for a democracy (or a republic) to work, one of the necessary components is a concerned, informed and active citizenry. To that, I will add that in the case of this country, for the most part, the citizens do not demonstrate that they are truely concerned about the "real" issues; they are most assuredly not actually informed; and, active participation has been reduced over the years to almost nothing other than the small percentage of folks who cast votes whenever it's election time. It is a shame, but right now, this country is headed down-hill; and the answers for positive change, if they're out there, are not apparent to me - I hope they are to somebody. Cheers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:33 PM Hang on, Bobert. The long night is about over. Let's see how many "red states" there are in 2008--with the Republicans diligently ripping each other apart over immigration and Iraq. The rats are leaving the sinking ship. (As long as Democrats don't insist on absolute perfection before they will support a candidate.) Or embark on wonderful ideas like taking "Under God" out of the Pledge--that 's always a winner. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:46 PM Until they take "Under goD" out of the pledge, US Democracy will stay on the ropes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 28 Jun 07 - 12:00 AM Heck, George Bush has tweeked the crud outta the Consitutionso . . . Every day it's looking more like a dictatorship. He has run roughshod over most of the checks and balances in place to maintain order. I agree--"under god" doesn't belong in there. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Jun 07 - 12:11 AM You may think that--but trying to take it out is a wonderful prescription for political suicide. Perhaps that doesn't bother you--which is exactly the point. Insisting on perfection may be one reason why we now have the opposite in the White House. "When will they ever learn?"' |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Bobert Date: 28 Jun 07 - 07:43 AM Good point, Texas Guest... BTW, of all domocracies around the world, the US is in the bottom 1/5th in terms of participation, i.e., voter turnout... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Dickey Date: 28 Jun 07 - 08:48 AM "US can't even make a feeble attempt to correct it's own flaws???" Ahhhhhhh, tou are ***making*** it Bobert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: GUEST,amazed Date: 28 Jun 07 - 09:46 AM Democracy is mob rule. If 51% vote to kill the other 49%, then the murder is legal. What is it about representative government that people don't understand? In America, the mislabeling of our form of government began in earnest during Woodrow Wilson's presidency. FDR began to greatly advance the mislabeling during his radio broadcasts. As a result, Americans today think they live in a democracy. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands..." Minorities in the U.S. should be glad the country isn't a democracy, or legal purges may have been voted for and carried out long ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Riginslinger Date: 28 Jun 07 - 10:28 AM "Democracy is mob rule. If 51% vote to kill the other 49%, then the murder is legal." And that, of course, is the problem with allowing so many illegal aliens into the country. Once the people that are here shrink to 45%, it's "sianara baby." |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Lonesome EJ Date: 28 Jun 07 - 11:22 AM When the United States government was designed, two factors played a strong role : The need for a system of checks and balances to prevent any one branch of government from gaining ascendency, and the need to establish a compromise between those like Adams, who favored a strong Federal government, and those like Jefferson, who believed that the United States should be a fairly loose coalition of independent entities. Congress is a product of both of these efforts. The House of Representatives is meant to give an accurate reflection of the will of the majority of the US population. The Senate is intended to give all states an equal footing. These two bodies also check and balance one another. Despite the opposing forces whose disagreeing philosophies gave birth to the Legislative Branch, the body has worked, for most part, very well. However, I do have a disagreement with one of the products of the compromise. The way we elect presidents through the Electoral College was a misguided concept sponsored by those who felt the rabble could not be trusted with such a responsibility, and the Electoral College was a stopgap measure to prevent such a democratic mistake. Jefferson called it a keg of dynamite with a long-burning fuse. In 2000, we witnessed how the Electoral College could be used to overthrow the popular vote, and the time has come to amend the constitution regarding this antiquated and dangerous tradition. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Bobert Date: 28 Jun 07 - 07:30 PM Yeah, Lonesome, but at the time the states were fairly well evenly populated... We now have 32% of the Seante controlled by less actaul combined population than California... In other words, Californians are only marginally represtented compared to like Wyoming which is grossly over represented in comparasion... And I would suggest that this disparity is one of thr rerason why Congress can't get anything done... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Riginslinger Date: 28 Jun 07 - 07:37 PM Maybe, but they can't get anything done in the House either, and they just represent people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Ebbie Date: 28 Jun 07 - 07:42 PM The disparity between populous cities and sparsely populated states, if I remember correctly, was done to try to give the sparsely populated states equal clout. Like many another thing in this country it has drawbacks. As for the Electoral College, I think its demise is long overdue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Bobert Date: 28 Jun 07 - 09:51 PM Yeah, Ebbie... That was the original idea... It ain't workin'.. As fir the House... It is so jerimandered thru redristricting that it is hopelessly screwed... That's what I mean... Our system is broken... The Senate is broken by stuff that the Founding Fathers could have never in a million years forseen with populations and our House is broken by jerimandering... No wonder the Cheney administration has been able to seize so much power... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Bill D Date: 28 Jun 07 - 10:04 PM ummm...Bobert....how would you suggest we change the way the Senate is constituted? I am quite aware that sometimes it seems unfairly weighted, but to me, the most awkward issue is the way presidents are elected by those red states in the electoral college.....well, maybe the 2nd most awkward and unfair...right after the way candidate are chosen by loaded primaries in the first place. If we want good candidates, evaluated in unbiased ways and voted on in open manners, we need to revise the whole system.....the Senate composition will sort itself out then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: akenaton Date: 29 Jun 07 - 07:25 AM Kick the whole greed mob out and give America back to the "Indians" |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: John Hardly Date: 29 Jun 07 - 07:47 AM Lonesome, I could almost agree about the electoral college. Sadly, rather than growing away from a need for it though, I think it's more necessary than ever. 1. The executive branch would come to represent only the needs of the large population centers -- and this at a time when the population has NEVER been more monarchical in their (mis)understanding of the presidency. EVERY single issue in politics is viewed in the mass media as well as the population at large as how the president's will is either gained or thwarted. There is NO sense that the legistlative branch is to be the one expressing the will of the people -- though that was the intent of the constitution. No matter how we try to educate the public, they are incapable (and increasingly so) of understanding that we do not live in a monarchy. The electoral college balances that ignorance. 2. Our liberal arts education is failing. Sadly, though you wish for more public will to be expressed -- and feel that the "rabble" is being held down -- never has been more necessary to thwart the will of "the rabble" because never before have they had such ignorat ideas of what government's role should be -- they are stark-raving stupid -- on both sides of the political spectrum. We vote our will and the public good be damned. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: John Hardly Date: 29 Jun 07 - 07:48 AM sorry for the typos |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Lonesome EJ Date: 29 Jun 07 - 12:18 PM John, someone said that a People get the government they deserve, and perhaps you have hit it on the head. With the general malaise about government in this country, the ignorance of current affairs, the dominance of pop culture in the media, we are perhaps indeed getting the government we deserve. But I believe the Constitution presented the United States as a workable concept in self-government by the people, for better or for worse. It is, in my opinion, the noblest example of an exalted idea made practical. The country succeeded for over 200 years in defying critics who said democracy was not a workable idea, and has proven remarkably resilient in fixing its own faults and rebounding from assaults on its very existence. I think the fate of the country must at last lie in the hands of its citizens. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: John Hardly Date: 29 Jun 07 - 12:50 PM agreed, but it has, as you say, "succeeded for over 200 years" WITH an electoral college. I have my doubts that it would have without it -- and I'd bet my dog's bones (the ones he values and chews on -- not the ones that hold him together. It'd be cruel to bet those) that it won't when we shed ourselves of it. We are a republic. A form of democracy that understands -- accepts as a starting point -- that true democracy is really not a good thing. It's really just mob rule and one step away from might makes right. We're too under-educated for more democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: GUEST,Media Date: 29 Jun 07 - 01:24 PM .S. troops have been mystified at how differently the war they fight in Iraq is portrayed by the U.S. media back home. Most just shrug it off as "politics," and yet another reason to not trust what the mass media presents as reliable reporting. But recently, the troops have been passing around an interesting discovery. Namely, that the Japanese psychological warfare effort during World War II included radio broadcasts that could be picked up by American troops. Popular music was played, but the commentary (by one of several English speaking Japanese women) always hammered away on the same points; 1 Your President (Franklin D Roosevelt) is lying to you. 2 This war is illegal. 3 You cannot win the war. The troops are perplexed and somewhat amused that their own media is now sending out this message. Fighting the enemy in Iraq is simple, compared to figuring out what news editors are thinking back home. A few times, the mass media has been bold, or foolish, enough to confront the troops about this divergence of perceptions. The result is usually a surreal exchange, with the troops giving the journalist a "what planet are YOU from" look. Naturally, this sort of thing doesn't get much exposure. When pressed, a journalist or editor will dismiss the opinions of the troops (of all ranks), because they are "too close" to see "the big picture." For the same reason, reporters who send back material agreeing with the troops, find their stuff twisted into an acceptable shape, or not used at all. Historians will have a good time with all this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Democracy on the ropes.... From: Riginslinger Date: 29 Jun 07 - 01:45 PM On the other hand, we could just bring Tokyo Rose back, rewrite her script, and put her out on the air-waves. We could call it, oh, say, Fox News maybe. |
