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BS: Who knows about ligaments?
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Subject: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: alanabit Date: 24 Jun 07 - 04:39 AM Alanabit is up for the Pillock of the Week award... I ran for a tram last night, stumbled and twisted my ankle. I knew it was the ligaments as soon as I did it. The ankle is swollen to about a third of the normal size again on both sides, although it only hurts on the outside. I have done this before, so I have some idea of what to expect. I am particularly galled that it means it is likely to be several months before I can do any training again. I am used to training between three and five times a week. I wonder what advice any of you medics, paramedics and witch doctors out there can give me. Do I move it as much or as little as possible? Is there anything I can do to speed the recovery? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: wysiwyg Date: 24 Jun 07 - 08:11 AM Yes. 1. See the doc and get an accurate assessment. 2. See me about aquajogging. You can train in the water (with care and good rehab guidance), and keep the rest of you fit while this continues to heal. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: GUEST,Geoff the Duck Date: 24 Jun 07 - 09:41 AM I have noticed that in England, medical advice from hospital casualty departments for severe ankle twists has changed in recent years. They used to strap things up so that the injury was supported. Nowadays they tell you to walk normally despite the fact that you can't. I am not convinced tha the change is based on medical understanding. I have too great a suspicion that an accountant has said that if they save the cost of a couple of hundred crepe bandages, it will cover the cost of him giving himself another pay rise. I agree with WYSYWYG. Get an accurate assessment of the damage from a qualified person. Good advice for one type of strain may not necessarily be appropriate for a sprain of a different type. Quack! GtD. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: katlaughing Date: 24 Jun 07 - 10:00 AM Ice will help reduce the swelling. If you DON'T rest it, within reason, it WILL take longer to heal. I know this from stupid experience. My doc wrapped mine, but it didn't feel any better. He also tried to get me to wear one of those boots and that made everything else hurt as it threw off my body alignment and didn't help my ankle. Gentle stretching is essential to keep it from stiffening up and to heal, imo. To the water with you sounds like really good advice. Heal up!:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: Rapparee Date: 24 Jun 07 - 10:10 AM Rest Ice Compression (easy now!) Elevation See the doc. Water exercise is very helpful, including whirlpool, or at least it was with mine. A physical therapist might also do gentle stimulation, laser work, and mild stretching when the time comes. Find a good answer to the question, "What did YOU do now?" A walking stick, such as is used by hikers, could also help (although I would have prefered a sword cane, my wife said "Okay, but you'll be living alone.") In the meantime, play the guitar with your fingers and give your toes a rest. 8-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: alanabit Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:32 AM Thanks everyone. I will go and see the quack tomorrow afternoon, though I am pretty sure already what he will say. The old Voltaire quote comes to mind,"Doctors amuse the patient while nature cures the ailment." Astonishingly enough, I have been a big enough fool to have done this twice before! It is still very swollen and is now half the colours of the rainbow. Maybe medical science has moved on and there is something can be done to speed recovery. It is only a small thing really, but six months of not being able to train properly is a bigger challenge than my self esteem wishes to take on at the moment. Still, I'll bet good money that Paris Hilton is suffering even more over the state of her nails... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:54 AM Sounds like torn ligaments. Ice it, rest it and don't do stupid things like running for buses or trams again. There's nearly always another one along soon and if not, well that's why God invented taxis. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: SINSULL Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:57 AM I did mine in stepping off a curb I didn't see. I saw a specialist who said rest it, ice it and walk. Two years later it is fine but I have an odd lump poking out of the outer ankle. Don't run for trams. There is always another on its way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: EBarnacle Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:59 AM Massage gently between applications of ice. The operative word is gently. The rest of the time, allow it to heal. Also, include some warm clothes. You wish to encourage circulation. In general, the RICE protocol is right, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: Mrrzy Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:37 PM RICE is great. You'll end up sorry you didn't break it, from what I hear - ligaments take longer to heal than bones, and don't heal as well... you'll be the human Barometer later, too! Good luck! Bonne guerison! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:58 PM That's true. My dodgy ligaments in my right foot tell me when it's going to be cold out. I can't stay in the freezer section for too long or it starts to complain. My left foot aches when the weather is rainy. It's been aching a lot this past few weeks! LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: Jim Lad Date: 25 Jun 07 - 01:18 PM Alanabit: The fact that you sprained your ankle before, makes you susceptible to future sprains. You have stretched the ligament too far and like a guitar string, it has a memory. As for the ice: That's fine for the first few hours, to prevent swelling but now that the swelling has occurred, you need to aid the circulation in order to facilitate the removal of accumulated fluid & debris. So, moist heat, elevation (Higher than your heart), anti-inflammatories, rest and a proper assessment by a physician in order to asses the type of sprain and thus how to properly apply the bandage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: katlaughing Date: 25 Jun 07 - 02:42 PM There is a difference of opinion on the moist heat vs ice thing these days. I went to an extraordinary massage therapist who agreed with my osteopath that ice will calm things down when they flare up. I had been putting heat on old injuries. I did so because ice hurt and made me feel stiff. When she explained how the ice brings down the inflammation and how moist heat just encourages it, it made more sense. The next time something flared I stuck it out with the ice and was amazed are how much quicker I felt better. As far as physical therpist go: BE CAREFUL! The last time I injured my ankle ligaments, the foot doc had me go right over to the physio. She manipulated it and used some kind of pulsing electrical stimulus on it. I went home and about an hour later I was in extreme pain, much more than the original injury. It was injured even more and I was on crutches for a week. My osteo was pissed,as was I. I told the foot doc who kind of blew it off. I've not been to him since. I know of another Mudcatter who went to three different physios before she found one who did NOT reinjure things. I think they are too eager and sure of their methods a lot of the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: Amos Date: 25 Jun 07 - 02:51 PM Alanabit is up for the Pillock of the Week award... I Gee, Alan, that sounds like the makings of a good song. When first I came to ________(town)___, A tram line for to find A seeking rapid transit, No mischief on mmy mind! But I tripped across a kerbstone there, Which caused my joints to creak, And now they call me Alan, The Pillock of the Week.... I can hear Joanie singing it now.... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: alanabit Date: 25 Jun 07 - 03:41 PM Well I may have a buggered foot, but at least I'm laughing again! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: Bobert Date: 25 Jun 07 - 08:44 PM Yer only as young as yer ligaments, Alan... Like other have said, "Ice".... Three reps of 15 minutes on and 15 minutes off twice a day... Gettin' older is a bitc* but it beats the alternative... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: Bonecruncher Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:17 PM Alanabit I am an osteopath with considerable experience of treating torn ligaments. I am osteopath to a number of Folk Festivals. With all due respect to medical doctors, their training involves far less time studying the musculo-skeletal system than do osteopaths. My GP rekons I know more about the anatomy of the body than he ever learned. Cold to help reduce the swelling - ice packs applied 10 minutes on and ten minutes off are a great help. Make sure you wrap the ice-packs before putting them on your skin to obviate "freezer burn". Inflammation causes heat and the ice tends to reduce this. Mobilisation by GENTLE exercise, particularly in a swimmning-bath as mentioned above, is helpful to obviate adhesions in the healing tissues. Arnica tablets (strength 30) as an anti-inflammatory and to reduce internal bruising (which might not be apparent on the surface) and, if you wish, arnica cream applied topically. Hope this is helpful. Colyn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: Cap't Bob Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:52 PM Good advice about the ice. Be careful with the ice and don't over do the time suggested above. I fell asleep one time with an ice pack on my leg and ended up with a bad blister that eventually turned into celulitis. Cap't Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: Jim Lad Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:10 PM See a real doctor, Alanabit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 26 Jun 07 - 03:20 AM It might be an idea to invest in one of those 'wheaty bags' - a bag of "wheat" grains that can be frozen or heated without making popcorn. Very useful as they're already cloth covered so you don't get freezer burn, the grains mould to your shape and they actually retain both temperatures for quite some time. If you're going to be doing this to your ankle a lot, you might want to think about one! Besides, heated in the microwave, they're a toasty warm foot or neck warmer for those cold evenings! LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 26 Jun 07 - 09:21 AM Arnica tablets?! "Toxicity: The internal use of Arnica is not suggested. It can cause vomiting, weakness, increased heart rate and nervous disturbances." http://www.allnatural.net/herbpages/arnica.shtml |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: JennyO Date: 26 Jun 07 - 11:36 AM Some years ago when I broke my ankle, the most troublesome legacy of that was not so much the fracture, but the tissue damage which caused swelling in the area for months. The things which gave relief were elevation and comfrey ointment, but the real breakthrough came when I started resting my ankle on a small magnetic pillow in bed at night. The improvement was fast and dramatic. I tend towards being a bit cynical so I was pleasantly surprised. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: Donuel Date: 26 Jun 07 - 01:40 PM I ripped the ligaments in an ankle and eventually, years later while stepping off the curb, the ankle snapped both bones. After the intial tear I have spent about 18 months on crutches throughout my life bcause of it. Today there is carbon thread that surgeons can sew into the ligaments making them hundreds of times stonger than the real thing. If you look into this be sure to get the cost risk benefits from the doctor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: GUEST,North South Annie Date: 26 Jun 07 - 08:00 PM I know from personal experience that ligaments take a long time to heal. Mine was a morris dancing accident - the doctor wrote to the hospital, 'Morris dancer - excellent take-off, rotten landing!' which just about summed it up. Anyway I did the R.I.C.E. thing and a bag of frozen peas wraps itself nicely round the foot (covered as mentioned before)On crutches for several weeks but swimming and gentle little movements - rolling a small ball under the instep -worked well. I was told about the 'carbon repair'but didn't take that option and have been fine since. Take note of all that Bonecruncher says - he really knows his stuff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: alanabit Date: 26 Jun 07 - 11:30 PM I think I will Annie. I went to the quack yesterday and he confirmed what I already knew. I'm doing a little walking to avoid adhesions, as Bonecruncher suggests and I will go and look for some of that arnica stuff later today. The good news from the doctor was that with luck, it could heal up by September. I had been expecting it to take a good six months. We'll have to wait and see, but I am going to be cautiously optimistic. I am more used to a routine, which includes a hundred press ups, eighty squats and a hundred sit ups and all the rest of the malarkey that goes with proper training. Trying to act my age for a few weeks (I'm over fifty) is a real drag! I will try and behave for a while! Thanks everyone for your concern and advice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: catspaw49 Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:22 AM A below-the-knee amputation will relieve most of the pain and if you have both ankles done, not only is the price lower but there are several other benefits. Your reduced height will get you into many venues for a child's ticket for instance. Or you could be fitted with assorted prosthetic pods with all kinds of accessories like wheels or swim fins! Think about it............. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: alanabit Date: 27 Jun 07 - 02:58 AM Er Spaw, as I am only 5'4" to start with, reducing height ain't exactly a pressing priority! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: Bert Date: 03 Jul 07 - 11:38 AM Vitamin E. And Acriflavine if you can get it. It got banned in the US 'cos a few people were allergic to it. So now all the rest of us have to suffer our bruises. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 03 Jul 07 - 02:06 PM The first it was ever done, 1956, my doctor Sidney Sideman in Chicago improvised an operation while I was on the operating table. The day before I'd severed my Anterior Cruciate Ligament in a freshman high school football game. He had gone into my knee thinking it was only a torn cartilage---and that's why he had to improvise. He took a ligament, drilled through the bones and transplanted it to hold stuff together. (I was told it'd never was done before. Now it's a regularly done procedure of sorts.) It lasted--with some laxity---for 42 years--enough time for an artificial knee to be invented. So I got one in 1997. Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: GUEST Date: 03 Jul 07 - 02:12 PM Alanabit, Don't you worry! Just wait until you finish growing up. Art ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: alanabit Date: 03 Jul 07 - 02:37 PM LOL! Physically, I guess it's nearly finished. It's just all that other stuff that grown ups are supposed to be able to handle... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 04 Jul 07 - 02:38 AM But have you learned not to go running for trams now? LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: Peace Date: 04 Jul 07 - 03:13 AM Stop munching on those dog biscuits and you'll stop chasing trams. If you can get a walker--thingy like this w/o the seat --you'll still be able to train. After the hip replacement I need it for about three months for classes. It allowed me to stand mostly on one leg and work the upper body for grappling techniques, blocks and counter strikes. Your kicks'll go to shit, but your hand techniques will improve very much. Hang tough, buddy. It'll come together for you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Jul 07 - 11:12 AM The most useful thing doctor can do for this kind of thing is guve a referral to a good physiotherapist, because they generally know a lot more about what is actually the best way to help your ankle recover, what exercises to do, what to avoid doing. Ligaments do take a long time to recover. For a musician, better an injured ankle than an injured wrist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: Bert Date: 04 Jul 07 - 12:59 PM Sheesh, knee replacements - hip replacements. There's gotta be a song there somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: katlaughing Date: 04 Jul 07 - 06:40 PM A word of caution if anyone is thinking of having ultrasound therapy (I remembered why it re-injured my ankle!) do NOT allow it if you are on warfarin (coumadin) or any other blood thinners. As the ultrasound can increase blood flow, it winds up feeling as though someone has taken a big hammer to the injured area and banged around a bit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: s&r Date: 04 Jul 07 - 08:32 PM Worth a read Stu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who knows about ligaments? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Jul 07 - 08:42 PM "There's gotta be a song there somewhere." Them Bones: "Your leg bone's disconnected from your foot bone..." |
