 sj |
||
|
||
2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities
|
|
|
Subject: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: Dave the Gnome Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:54 AM There has been a lot of talk recently about music collecting, copyrights etc. How about 2nd hand music? I know it is on a much smaller scale but what does everyone think about buying and selling 2nd hand music? Firstly - The legality. I am guessing that once you own the CD/Vinyl/Tape whatever it is your to do with as you will. Can anyone confirm that is so? Secondly - The morality. If I buy an album, for the full price, particularly directly from the artist, is it right that I should sell it on? Is it depriving the artist of money that they may need? If I did not sell it on maybe the potential purchasor would buy a new one and pay the appropriate portion in royalties. Maybe not. When it comes to places like Amazon and ebay selling on 2nd hand music, they make money. The seller makes money. The buyer gets a bargain and what does the poor artist make? Bugger all. I am in two minds. I am all for fair play to the recording artist and would feel a pang of guilt buying 2nd hand music. On the other hand there are some albums etc that can only be had this way. In addition, if I no longer listen to an album should I not pass it on to someone who would benefit? Maybe there should be some central repository of old Albums where people can buy them at a reasonable price and a % is still sent to the artist? I don't know. What do you think? Cheers Dave |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: GUEST,Wayne Date: 15 Jun 07 - 10:13 AM Over the years I've discovered many great peformers through second hand albums. It means that I've gone on to purchase new albums & concert tickets which have hepled (modestly) to swell the performers' coffers. For example, sometime in the late eighties I bought Jez Lowe's Bad Penny l.p. second-hand. I've since bought all his others, either from mainstream record shops or straight from him and also been to many of his live shows. Getting your music heard is surely the important thing. If enough people get to hear it, business opportunties will follow. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: The Sandman Date: 15 Jun 07 - 10:29 AM Wayne,your last line is very important,that is why I and many other,are pissed off with Celtic Music. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 15 Jun 07 - 10:29 AM Some people can't afford to buy everything new. We don't think that when we buy second hand furniture that we are depriving the manufacturer of money. The artist gets the money when the CD/Vinyl/Tape is first sold, the person buying second hand can listen to something they may not otherwise have been able to afford and the person selling can use the money to buy more CD/Vinyl/Tapes, possibly from the same artist. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: GUEST,Wayne Date: 15 Jun 07 - 10:36 AM I agree with you, Captain Birdseye, about Celtic Music. The situation is a disgrace! |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Jun 07 - 10:39 AM I agree with everything said and I have qualms about it (though I do it still). As far as the musician is concerned with regard to royalties there's no difference between buying a second-hand CD and getting a free copy of a CD from your mate. I agree with the need for music to be disseminated and heard as widely as possible, but in the deepest recesses of my conscience I just wonder whether I'm using that as an excuse to justify getting some stuff cheap... |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: GUEST,Darowyn Date: 15 Jun 07 - 10:42 AM Copyright means just that- the right to make copies. The original buyer paid the artist their full dues for the making of that copy of the record. Nothing more is owed- it's all been paid. If you buy a CD, make a copy for yourself, on your MP3 player for example, then sell the CD, you have violated the artist's copyright, and possibly deprived him or her of a full price sale. You don't pay for the pleasure of listening, you pay for the licence to have a copy made for sale. Aside from the legal aspects there might be a moral argument that you should pay for the pleasure of listening, in the way that, to some extent, you do at a live performance. I feel that in a lot of cases, the "payment due" is felt as a sort of moral obligation to support the artist and show a sort of loyalty. You can see examples of that on any music board. Cheers Dave |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: ClaireBear Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:04 AM One critical difference between buying a second-hand CD and "getting a free copy from your mate" is that, in the first case, the number of CDs existing on the planet stays the same, while in the second case the number has gone up by one without any payment to the artist. I absolutely agree that the additional exposure the artist gets, with its potential for additional income, is more valuable than the theoretical loss of royalties for the second-hand CD. And you know what? If you buy a second-hand CD and find that you LOVE the artist -- then go ahead send the artist some money! Whatever you send may well be more than he or she would have made off the CD sale, had it been new. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:05 AM So I owe Mick Jagger about three quid... ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: dick greenhaus Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:47 AM If it weren't so easy to dub CDs,I might agree that "One critical difference between buying a second-hand CD and "getting a free copy from your mate" is that, in the first case, the number of CDs existing on the planet stays the same, while in the second case the number has gone up by one without any payment to the artist." I seriously doubt that many "previously-owned" CDs are being sold without copies having been made--a situation exactly equivalent to making a copy and then selling it. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:58 AM The original question posed does not mention the original owner making a copy. As Dick pointed out, if you make a copy and sell the original - that is the same as bootlegging. You basically transfer the rights to owning that LP or recording. Selling an LP or a CD that you are tired of, and have not made your own duplicate, is not a moral issue. If you give up ownership without keeping a piece for yourself - you have done nothing wrong. When you sell your house, the new owner does not pay the original builder. Used books, used clothes, etc. fall in the same catagory. I cringe when I see people talk about making a copy of a CD, or sending an MP3 and treat it as their right to do so. Your rights stop with you. Even if something is out of print, the moral obligation should prevent you from making copies. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: artbrooks Date: 15 Jun 07 - 12:22 PM Several different issues being discussed here - as is fairly normal with the Mudcat :>). As far as selling a CD (or tape or record) that you don't want any more, I'm with the group that thinks that the artist is entitled to royalties from one copy, and he/she has long since received that. Making a copy and sell the original? Exactly the same as keeping the original and selling the copy, and this is inappropriate even if not outright illegal. As far as giving away a copy? Well, the recipient hasn't paid anything for it, so how could the artist be legally entitled to a percentage of the purchase price? I'll freely admit that this is a point that is subject to disagreement. I wouldn't do this with a CD that's in print, since I feel that the performer deserves to be compensated appropriately, but I disagree with Ron's assertion that even if something is out of print, the moral obligation should prevent you from making copies. I have tried to contact groups that have long-since disappeared, such as The Womenfolk and and Just Friends, about getting copies of things that are missing from my collection, with no luck. I guess I'd have to say that, if a record/tape/CD is completely unavailable, than the artist and producer have forfeited any claim to payment and one should be able to make copies with impunity. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: pitheris Date: 15 Jun 07 - 12:28 PM I cringe when I see people talk about making a copy of a CD, or sending an MP3 and treat it as their right to do so. Your rights stop with you. Even if something is out of print, the moral obligation should prevent you from making copies. Some copyrights such as the "creative commons license" are less restrictive and allow for some noncommercial exemptions. Under most copyrights you also are obligated to pay royalties when you perform a copyrighted song in public or even play a CD in public. It is also a violation of most copyrights to publish the music or lyrics on web pages like DT. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 15 Jun 07 - 12:36 PM Art - depending on when the copyright expires, SOMEONE still has the rights to the recording and the performance. The artist and producer have not "forfeited" any claim just because they are sitting on it. Try making copies of a Disney's film "Song of the South" that is not available in the U.S. and see how quickly Disney's lawyers will call you!! There is no forfeit if the owner still holds the rights and has just decided to keep it off the market. I will give you another example. Ed McCurdy recorded a song called "Miracle of the Wheat" back in the late 50's or early 60's for Kapp Records. The single is long out of print. The song was co-written by Ervin Drake, who is still alive. Kapp Records was sold to another company and they hold the rights, even if the master may be missing. This song was very popular in Cincinnati during the 60's and 70's. People are looking for copies. If bootleg copies were made, even if no money exchanged hands, the market for any potential re-release of the song has been hurt. Bootlegs are the same way. The Grateful Dead allowed "trading" of tapes of their live performances, but their legal team jumps whenever someone tries to sell one of those profits or if they copy something that was legally released and they own the rights. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: katlaughing Date: 15 Jun 07 - 12:38 PM I guess I'd have to say that, if a record/tape/CD is completely unavailable, than the artist and producer have forfeited any claim to payment and one should be able to make copies with impunity. There are exceptions, artbrooks, as in Art Thieme's case with his Kicking Mules LPs having been bought up by another producer who refuses to re-release them. In Art's case, he has generously given permission for folks to copy and share them. It would be much better, though, imo, if the darn company would release them, etc. I don't make copies of any CD/tape I have unless I have permission. I do feel kind of badly for any writer, like myself, whose books may be sold second-hand. There's no more compensation once they sell for the first time, but at least they are not likely to be copied like a music tape or CD. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:45 PM Even if something is out of print, the moral obligation should prevent you from making copies. If something is out of print I think there's a moral right to make copies to keep it available. Even a moral duty in some cases. Legally? I don't know, and I don't much care. But when books and music are kept out of print and are unobtainable as a result, that is not far short of book burning, and copying them is not that far short of pulling them out of the fire. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:56 PM I disagree McGrath. Poor analogy. It is no where near book burning as the originals have not been destroyed. The original recording had its run, and a decision was made to not print any more. Books go out of print, magazines are available for the month of issue, films play only for a few weeks in theaters, and when DVD's or CD's are issued - the person or organization manufacturing makes the decision on when to re-order. If the material isn't selling, or as in the case of Disney make a business decision to drive up future sales - it is all a business decision. It is morally repugnant to steal someone elses property. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: GUEST,Spidey Bobe Date: 15 Jun 07 - 05:20 PM I'll be handing out Pontification badges on Monday morning. I have never heard such a load of nonsence. One wonders what the whingers on this site will pontificate about next. Right back to the Richard Thompson band on Wednesday evening!
Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: Marc Bernier Date: 15 Jun 07 - 05:45 PM I'm terribly sorry, I may have missed something. Captain Birdseye, what is the problem with celtic music? Is this celtic music as a whole, or just a particular product, or lack there of, that we have a bitch about? |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:04 PM It is a private company (note capital letters), discussed here at enormous length over several years. You can find them via the search engine. Difficult not to have noticed, I'd have thought; but never mind. Let's keep off that particular subject in this thread, please. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: M.Ted Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:11 PM You all are most likely glad that the our American Justice Department has proposed imprisonment and confiscation of property for all those who download music files or otherwise copy them without permission.Jail Time For Attempting to Copyright Infringement |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: GUEST,Black Hawk unlogged Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:30 PM So whats the difference between secondhand vinyl, CDs, DVDs and books? All have a copyright owner but I have never known anyone be prosecuted for selling secondhand books. Charity shops are full of 'em! For fifty plus years I have bought many books both new and used and this issue has never been raised. There are legiimate shops selling/trading computer games - again these are copyrighted items. The large companies only complain (rightly) about copies being traded. Serious question, not trying to 'flame' the issue! |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: Marc Bernier Date: 15 Jun 07 - 08:18 PM My appologies. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: Captain Ginger Date: 16 Jun 07 - 01:56 AM Serious question, not trying to 'flame' the issue! And a good point - in some respects I can see no difference between a book and a CD; both are physical artefacts recording another's creative input. Much of my music when I was younger was garnered from the trade-in bins of record shops (there used to be a superb place in Notting Hill that had the most wonderful and obscure LPs). The significant difference, however, is that over the past decade technology has made the copying of music (and video) - far simpler and thus the notion of 'intellectual property' more important. Ron Olesko seems to have got to the crux of the issue - if you keep the content and trade the artefact, that is morally wrong, but if you simply trade in a CD or LP you no longer want without copying it, 'title' passes to the new owner, and the original copyright owner has no rights in the matter. Compare it to a painting - if an artist sells a print, s/he makes money on the sale. But if the new owner sells it on, then the artist has no right to come back and demand a cut from that transaction. If, however, that new owner makes copies of the print and distributes them, the artist has a right to prevent this. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Jun 07 - 10:18 AM I don't like a system where anyone can make an artistic production unavailable to listeners or readers. In some cases this can be against the wishes of the person who created it in the first palce, as with Celtic Records. A better situation would be where, when this situation arose, there was a right in law for other people to republish, combined with some duty to pay an appropriate payment to the person or persons who created the work in the first place. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: GUEST,highlandman Date: 16 Jun 07 - 11:23 AM "I don't like a system where anyone can make an artistic production unavailable to listeners or readers. In some cases this can be against the wishes of the person who created it in the first place, as with Celtic Records." Many if not most contracts concerning written material (novels, screenplays, etc) nowadays have clauses stipulating that rights revert to the author should the publisher not release the work within a specified time period. I think this is a good thing and should become common practice in the music industry as well. Unfortunately those under existing contracts without such a clause have no legal recourse that I can think of. The owner is within legal rights to sit on or even destroy the material. Maybe enough public pressure could be brought to bear, a la ASCAP vs the Girl Scouts? Then again, we're just not big and public enough. -Glenn |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: Big Mick Date: 16 Jun 07 - 01:07 PM One needs only check my posting record to know that I am one of the strongest advocates on behalf of the artist being compensated, and one of the loudest detractors of burning and unauthorized file sharing. Having said that, I don't believe any moral, ethical, or legal quandary exists if one sells their personal CD's to another. Nor is there any problem with reselling them. Burning a copy is another thing entirely. Mick |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Jun 07 - 01:24 PM The owner is within legal rights to sit on or even destroy the material. And husbands used to have the right to beat their wives and children. When the law is wrong it needs to be changed. Property laws like that fall into that category. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: Dave the Gnome Date: 16 Jun 07 - 03:15 PM Why on earth did people start going on about making copies and distributing copied MP3s? I never mentioned them at all in the opening post. Please stick to the subject. Apart from that - good points. If ever I start to feel too guilty about buying 2nd hand stuff I will certaint try to get some cash to the recording artist. Cheers Dave |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: Big Mick Date: 16 Jun 07 - 04:27 PM Dave, unless you are buying a burned copy, I don't see why you would feel a moral compunction to do so. I love the attitude, but the artist was compensated when he sold the CD. I think it is great that you want to do so, but there is certainly no legal or moral reason for doing so. You are a good man. Mick |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 16 Jun 07 - 08:34 PM "And husbands used to have the right to beat their wives and children. When the law is wrong it needs to be changed. Property laws like that fall into that category." I have to strongly disagree. To compare this to wife beating is wrong. I'm not sure about your country, but here in the United States NO ONE has the right to beat a spouse or a child. We do have the right to make a PERSONAL copy for ourselves - a portion of the cost of buying a cassette tape or blank CD goes to royalties. HOWEVER, you do not have the right to keep the copy and sell the original - it doesn't work that way. I agree that unjust laws need to be broken. Those important lessons were learned during the civil rights movement, during labor organizing, and anti-war demonstrations. If a law is hurting, it needs to be changed. However, contracts are AGREEMENTS. When you bring up "law" in the case of CD legalities, you are forgetting that contracts are meant to protect both parties. The record label takes a risk and puts money into the sale, and they deserve FAIR compensation. The artist creates the work and deserves FAIR compensation. When it comes to "ownership" and reversal of rights, that needs to be laid out at the start of the transaction. Both parties need to be aware of what they are getting into before signing on the dotted line. Yes, it is a shame that people can be naive, and also that business decisions keep things out of peoples hands. I have a list of movies, CD's and books that I wish were still available. Luckily, no one has burned these items and there is always an opportunity. I would not recommend buying bootlegs and hurting someones business (artist or record company) because in the end you are just hurting everyone else and driving up prices. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Jun 07 - 08:38 PM There are such things as unfair contracts and this is recognised in UK law. It just doesn't wash these days to do that Pontius Pilate thing of wringing your hands, shrugging your shoulders and saying that nowt can be done "because of the contract." Quite right too. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 16 Jun 07 - 08:58 PM Sorry Steve, it is deeper than that. No one is saying to "shrug your shoulders", but you have to face reality and learn how to make change. You are not the judge and jury. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: open mike Date: 16 Jun 07 - 11:31 PM glad the question of celtic music was clarified...it was mysterious to me, too. (Celtic Music--i presume this is a business or label? such as in Green Linnet, etc.) I know a used c.d. supplier who purchases c.d.'s and re-sells them. I include much of the material i acquire from him in my radio broadcasts which allows people to hear music they might otherwise not have contact with. I also post my playlist on the internet, including contact info and web sties of artists when possible in order to direct potential customers and audience members to the source of the music. i have participated for many years with a used book business that does a similar business...and see it as only beneficial for all involved. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: katlaughing Date: 16 Jun 07 - 11:46 PM The difference between used books and CDs is the CDs can be copied easily, unless one wants to stand at a copier all day or scanner. Royalties on blanks only covers so much: 17 USC 1008 bars copyright infringement action and 17 USC 1003 provides for a royalty of 3% of the initial transfer price. The royalty rate in Section 1004 was established by the Fairness in Music Licensing Act of 1998. This only applies to CDs which are labeled and sold for music use; they do not apply to blank computer CDs, even though they can be (and often are) used to record or "burn" music from the computer to CD. A similar royalty applies to stand-alone CD recorders, but not to CD burners used with computers. Thanks to a precedent established in a 1998 lawsuit involving the Rio PMP300 player, MP3 players are deemed "computer peripherals" and are not subject to a royalty of this type in the U.S. |
|
Subject: RE: 2nd hand CDs- Legalities and Moralities From: Liz the Squeak Date: 17 Jun 07 - 03:20 AM It would be wonderful if I (and others) could afford to buy all the CDs I want, brand new and fresh from the manufacturer, but I have a greater moral obligation to feed and clothe my child. Consequently, I don't buy CDs unless they are on offer - which, as any other folk listening CD buyer will know, isn't all that often. The last CD I bought for myself, was purchased in a pre-Christmas sale and had been knocked down by half. It still cost me £8. So £16 doesn't sound much to a lot of people... but it represents 3 hrs childminding fees or 3 days travel expenses or 8 days lunch. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this boat who finds the only way to acquire a lot of new music is to borrow and copy. When every big newspaper is giving away CDs for free, it gives the impression of a carte blanche to copy anything. If only they gave away the Nic Jones collection instead of the tuneless drivel and pap that usually slides out onto the mat! LTS |
| Share Thread: |