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BS: Us liberals are really conservatives
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Subject: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: Bert Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:49 PM We are here, interested in the preservation (or in conserving) of culture, tradition, folksong and our environment. We are also concerned about the destruction and pillaging of antiquities in Iraq. That makes us conservatives in reality. So the question arises - What do we call those who call themselves conservatives but who are opposed to the above??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:54 PM "Radical reactionaries"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: fumblefingers Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:56 PM Opposed to what above, specifically? This really isn't very clear. Who is for destroying the antiquities in Iraq, those that still remain after Saddam Hussein pillaged the national museum? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: Peace Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:05 PM "So the question arises - What do we call those who call themselves conservatives but who are opposed to the above???" Idiots?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:10 PM Everyone is liberal about some things and conservative about others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: Captain Ginger Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:36 PM Who is for destroying the antiquities in Iraq, those that still remain after Saddam Hussein pillaged the national museum? I don't think anyone is for destroying antiquities poppet (and Saddam left them intact - to him they were a source of nationalistic pride); it's just that the occupying forces seem to be somewhat careless about their custody. On the basis of what's been posted above, I'd put 'fumblefingers' down as a reactionary. Or maybe a 'don't know', which sounds a trifle kinder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:59 PM "Know Nothings" is the more traditional American term. Back here we call them Tories. Even when they call themselves New Labour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:05 PM "Everyone is liberal about some things and conservative about others." Little Hawk, you are so right. Labels such as "liberal" and "conservative" are oversimplifications which journalists have invented to make their lives easy. The trouble comes when people internalize them and try to live accordingly instead of thinking for themselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:46 PM They are quite useful terms, when used accurately. But they get set up as if they were opposites, although it is perfectly possible to be at the same time liberal and conservatives, even about the same things. For example in a liberal democracy, someone defending civil rights is by definition liberal and conservative in the same breath, and someone attacking civil rights has to be simultaneously anti-liberal and anti-conservative - regardless of whatever they may call themselves. Stick capital letters on the words and of course they take on different meanings, which vary widely according to what part of the world you happen to be talking about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: Ebbie Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:50 PM If 'conservative'is the correct term for those who are currently in control of our government I really would like to know what they are conserving. I think McGrath has it right; they are radicals. Funny thing- 'radical' is a term that in the past was used to describe the extreme left. Sometimes two extreme points of a circle are awfully close to each other. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: fumblefingers Date: 13 Jun 07 - 01:26 AM Captain Crunch "I don't think anyone is for destroying antiquities poppet (and Saddam left them intact - to him they were a source of nationalistic pride); it's just that the occupying forces seem to be somewhat careless about their custody. On the basis of what's been posted above, I'd put 'fumblefingers' down as a reactionary. Or maybe a 'don't know', which sounds a trifle kinder." The contents of the Iraq National Museum, which had been closed to the public for several years, had been looted by Saddam to decorate his many palaces. This was later admitted by the curator, after the Americans had initially been accused of failing to save Iraq's national treasures from Iraqis. Get your facts straight before you start calling people names. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: Mrrzy Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:03 AM For every boy and every gal That's born into this world alive Is either a little liber-al Or else a little conservat-yve Fal la la, Fal la la Is either a little liber-al Or else a little conservat-yve Fol lol la. A liberal is a conservative who's been arrested. A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged. Anyone who isn't a liberal at 20 has no heart. Anyone who isn't a conservative at 40 has no brain. That's all I can think of right now... Oh, yes, Phil Ochs' Love Me, I'm A Liberal - the whole song is probably in the Trad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: Mrrzy Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:06 AM I'm shocked, shocked! It's not! Lyrics < a href="http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~trent/ochs/lyrics/liberal.html">here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: Mrrzy Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:07 AM Trying again: here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: Rog Peek Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:33 AM This is Phil's intro to the song: "In every American community there are varying shades cof political opinion, one of the shadiest of these is the liberals. An outspoken group on many subjects, ten degrees to the left of centre in good times, ten degrees to the right of centre if it affects them personally. So here then is a lesson in safe logic:" I cried when they shot Medgar Evers........ So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal. "Get it?" he asked the audience at the end of the first verse. In the second verse he paused in order to explain that the D.A.R. was "the dykes of the American revolution." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:41 AM Read it and weep, fumblefingers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: Ebbie Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:06 PM My God. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: Rog Peek Date: 13 Jun 07 - 02:11 PM Bloody disgaceful, but we're not surprised now are we? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: akenaton Date: 14 Jun 07 - 03:06 AM Simon Jenkins is a great commentator and a nice guy. Anti-war right from the start, he was vilified by the same UK press which is now abandoning the sinking ship. A bit like Mudcat really |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: GUEST,PMB Date: 14 Jun 07 - 03:33 AM McG of H is right. Liberal, conservative, materialist, spiritual, Christian, freedom, moral, socialist, nationalist, patriot.... all these, and many more, are weasel words that are likely to change meaning within the course of a single sentence. Liberal: Open- hearted, generous, excessive. Open minded. Libertine. Against constraints on individual freedom of action. One who believes markets should be controlled to favour the individual, at the expense of corporate freedom of action. Against constraints on corporate freedom of action. One who believes markets should be unconstrained, though this might entail restraints on the freedom of individuals. A member of the Liberal Party in the UK and many other countries. Left of centre. Right of centre. Centrist. Terms like these are only useful if you make the meaning clear, and keep it consistent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Jun 07 - 01:59 PM That link I gave to an article by Simon Jenkins in my post at 13 Jun 07 - 11:41 AM seems to have gone missing from the thread. Here it is again: In Iraq's four-year looting frenzy, the allies have become the vandals Here are some readers' comments carried by the paper later Help needed to restore Iraq's cultural heritage |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: Grab Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:08 AM That makes us conservatives in reality. No, that makes us conservaTORS. You can also say we're working to preserve tradition. That doesn't make us "preservatives". :-) Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:36 PM Being against unnecessary change is the central principle of small c conservativism. And being against unnecessary change always makes sense. It's when people move on to trying to get in the way of change that is necessary and desirable that it gets silly. And what is even more ridiculous is when people start trying to impose disastrous changes, such as cutting public services, and label that as being (small c) conservative. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: Bert Date: 15 Jun 07 - 06:31 PM Preservatives!!! I love it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:39 PM "Know Nothings" is the more traditional American term. Back here we call them Tories. Even when they call themselves New Labour. Glib, snide, and inaccurate, McG. None of us Tories call ourselves New Labour, and most of US are intelligent enough to tell the real thing from the Ersatz copy. A better name for New Labour would be McBeth II ("The Scottish Party") Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:59 PM There used to be an ad for a home hair perm product with the slogan "Which twin has the Toni?" That was before the days of David Cameron and Tony Blair. "Which twin is the Tony?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Us liberals are really conservatives From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 15 Jun 07 - 08:08 PM anyone who wears a suit and smiles in a '2 faced funny kinda way' aint to be trusted.. simple as that !!! |
