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Guardian shanty article .
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Subject: Guardian shanty article . From: GUEST,mick Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:08 PM Last Saturday's Guardian carried an interesting piece by James Fenton on the origins of shanties. http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,2061338,00.html I was puzzled by the article's last paragraph as much as the interviewed singer mentioned in it. Could anybody help? "But the great thing to understand is the way they (shanties) relate to work: "Now this song," says a singer recorded in 1939, "it commences ... The solo is sung by the shantyman sitting on the capstan head ... The shantyman sits there and does nothing, while the crew, walking around the capstan, are singing." The interviewer asks the singer where the pull comes. The singer doesn't understand. "And that's where they pull?" repeats the interviewer. "There's no pull in a capstan shanty!" says the singer: "They're walking around the capstan with the bars." In other words, they are pushing continuously, and that fact will be somehow reflected in the song." |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: Barry Finn Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:27 PM What's puzzling you Mick? Here's a link to the article Barry |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: Charley Noble Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:31 PM Mick- The old shantyman is puzzled because the ehtnomusicologist doesn't understand the work involved in marching around the capstan. Unlike hauling all together on a halyard, there is no "pull" in the work chant, just a marching rhythm as they heave on the bars.. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: Barry Finn Date: 23 Apr 07 - 05:10 PM It's not hard to understand why the shantyman is puzzled, I was asking why Mick was puzzled? Barry Barry |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: North/South Annie Date: 23 Apr 07 - 05:55 PM Having read the article from the link supplied by Barry Finn, I think I see what you mean Mick. This paragraph is a bit unclear. I think it makes sense if we understand 'the interviewer' to be the one interviewing the 'singer recorded in 1939' (whenever that interview took place)and not think of 'the interviewer' as being the same person that wrote this article. Can you see what i mean? Annie |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Apr 07 - 06:12 PM I share Barry's puzzlement. It seems pretty straightforward. I can imagine the shantyman back in 39 having a right laugh as he told his mates about this strange bloke who came and asked daft questions about shanties and clearly hadn't a clue about working ships. "Ethnomusicology" - well, that's one name for it... |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: GUEST,mick burke Date: 24 Apr 07 - 08:29 AM My puzzlement comes from the use of the word "pull" which the original interveiwer and Fenton seem to be using as a musical term . |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: Mr Happy Date: 24 Apr 07 - 08:55 AM ..........pull the other one?? |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: Barry Finn Date: 24 Apr 07 - 11:43 AM if'n 'e don't know push from pull, he's likely not to know ass from elbow either. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: PoppaGator Date: 24 Apr 07 - 11:54 AM "Pull" is not, strictly speaking, a musical term: it's a description of a physical act that needs to be performed in unison by a ship's crew. It becomes a musical term insofar as a particular one-beat-per-measure in the shanty (work song) chosen to facilitate the work is designated to signal the moment when everybody pulls. |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: GUEST,mick Date: 24 Apr 07 - 01:44 PM Aha ,I get it now PoppaGator .Thanks everybody . |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: GUEST,meself Date: 24 Apr 07 - 03:03 PM I'm a little puzzled as to the point of the article - or is it enough that it concerns one of the "Things that have interested me"? And this puzzles me: Hugill points out that there are Irish/Negro shanties that have Irish airs and what he calls Negro words, although he does not, in the book I am reading (Shanties and Sailors' Songs), give the text of either. You can understand why: I nebber see de like since I been born, When a big buck nigger wid his sea boots on Says "Johnny come down to Hilo, Poor old man!" Chorus: Oh! Wake her, Oh! Shake her, Oh! Wake dat girl wid de blue dress on! When Johnny comes down to Hilo, Poor old man! And in another version of this windlass and capstan shanty, the "big buck nigger" turns into an "Arkansas farmer". The author implies that Hugill does not give the lyrics because they are offensive, then quotes some offensive lyrics that he implies are from Hugill's book. That would seem to diminish rather than support his argument. And then he seems to imply that turning 'the "big buck nigger"' into 'an "Arkansas farmer"' adds to the offensiveness. Another thing that puzzles me is why I've given this whole matter more than five minutes of my time. |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: ship*scat Date: 25 Apr 07 - 12:48 PM Perhaps heaving and hauling would have been a better framework to pose the question. One heaves on capstan and pump bars and hauls on lines of all sorts. Heaving one end of a line or string and expecting the other to go somewhere is the definition of futility |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: GUEST,Nick Date: 25 Apr 07 - 07:25 PM Meself posted... "the book I am reading (Shanties and Sailors' Songs)" Who is the author? I have somewhere Songs from the Seven Seas By Hugill and must say I don't remember too many "Offensive" words. Stan does strike me as someone who would just give the lyrics as they were. The book was compiled at a time where people were a bit less sensitive to such things, or perhaps I was just not so sensitive when I read it so I did not even notice the N word. Or Stan might have been PC before it's time. Since then bilge rats have gnawed off the cover to that book... ok it was my dog, but that is not as good a story. Whack Fall The Day Nick |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: Mr Happy Date: 25 Apr 07 - 08:16 PM Heaving at sea isn't only about hauling! Poppagator, I do take exception to you stating that 'pull' is not a musical term. For those who play squeezables, 'pull' is another term for 'draw' |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: GUEST,meself Date: 25 Apr 07 - 08:23 PM Nick: Sorry - apparently I didn't make it clear that I had cut and pasted a section of the article - so, from 'Hugill points out ... ' to ' ... "Arkansas farmer"', I am quoting the article. There were a couple of things in there that "puzzled me", which I talk about at the end of my post. |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: PoppaGator Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:50 AM Sorry Mr Happy. I forgot that accordians were musical insruments! [;^)] |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 26 Apr 07 - 11:41 AM Richard Maitland of New York City was the shantyman quoted. Alan Lomax was the interviewer. |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: GUEST,mick burke Date: 27 Apr 07 - 07:59 AM I had never heard the word "pull" used that way before either in a shanty or as an accordian player's term . Mr Happy, do you know whether the pull/draw on the squeeze-box originally had the same function aboard ships as a shanty's pull ? |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: radriano Date: 27 Apr 07 - 10:44 AM Alan Lomax did not understand shipboard work very well. There is another interview he did with, I think, some South Sea Islanders where they were singing a capstan shanty and he kept asking,"So where's the pull?" Finally the guy being interviewed, in obvious frustration, shouts back to Lomax something like, "There's no pull, it's a capstan shanty" |
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Subject: RE: Guardian shanty article . From: Charley Noble Date: 27 Apr 07 - 11:06 AM Radriano- Well, they could have "pulled" Lomax's leg. There are shipboard work songs with both "heaving" and "hauling" such as can be demonstrated at the Downton pumps with the shanty "South Australia." As Hugill describes it, "... some would be 'heaving away' at the pump handles and others 'hauling away' at the 'bell-ropes.' The expression "heaving" should not be confused with what some armchair shantymen do over the lee rail when they're tempest toss'd on the billowing deep! Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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