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Gibson guitar strings for acoustic 12?
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Gibson guitar strings for acoustic 12? |
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Subject: Gibson guitar strings for acoustic 12? From: Richard Bridge Date: 09 Apr 07 - 10:34 PM I am negotiating with a view to buying another 12-string - it's a long trip to go to inspect so I plan to do it only once. The seller says he has had it from new and has always used Gibson mediums on it. I've been on the Gibson site, and many string and dealer sites - but can find no mention anywhere of Gibson making 12-string sets of any of thier strings. Does anyone know if they do, and what guages the "mediums" are? If the seller has been using two sets of 13-56 strings the instrument will surely be junk by now - perhaps as indicated by the fact that he tells me that the action on the bass side at the octave is an eye-watering knuckle-popping 6 millimetres (a quarter of an inch, roughly). |
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Subject: RE: Gibson guitar strings for acoustic 12? From: Wesley S Date: 10 Apr 07 - 09:52 AM I've never seen them but then again I've never looked for them either. I change strings on my Lowden 12 string so rarely that Elixers seem to be the way to go for my needs. Probably more important than the guage of strings would be where he's had it tuned all these years. Let's hope it wasn't concert pitch. What brand/type of 12 string are we talking about? |
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Subject: RE: Gibson guitar strings for acoustic 12? From: Songster Bob Date: 10 Apr 07 - 12:55 PM Gibson used to make 12-string strings with a doubled 3d, not an octave course. That is, two strings of the same diameter, tuned to the same note. I also note that I never heard of tuning a 12-string to standard pitch till the 60s, when Yamaha came along. Modern 12-strings and light strings can take it, I guess, but I always tune a whole step (or more) low. So action problems are much less common. Bob |
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Subject: RE: Gibson guitar strings for acoustic 12? From: Richard Bridge Date: 12 Apr 07 - 04:40 AM Oh shit I did it! It's a Mugen THE78 slotted head 12-string that matches my existing Mugen THE78 6 string. Looks great - but.... The blithering former owner has had it from new in the early 80s and it has been strung up to concert all that time with 13s on it. I am not sure I am not going to need a neck-set at huge expense. The strings are clearly not Gibsons. The guitar is very dusty - it has been hanging as an ornament, alas. I have in the past found that cleaning the saddle and saddle slot, believe it or not, suddenly breathes life back into the sound. So far I have slackened the strings almost completely, and wound the truss rod up to fart-past-grunt, and I have nearly got the neck (with no tension on) to dead straight. I'll let it settle for a day or two and try to get it to dead straight, then when I clean the guitar up and put some 10/47s on and bring it to pitch there should be a smidgeon of forward relief on the neck, and I may if I am lucky just be able to play it - ie a bass side action of about 3mm or maybe 3.5mm. I think the nut will turn out about right at that. If not, then the next step is to address the (fortunately slight) bellying - which will involve a Bridge Doctor. I didn't want to do that, as it will alter the character of the sound slightly. Next step after that is a new lower saddle (save the original brass one at all costs) with a little relief of the bridgeplate on both sides, particularly on the pins side to maintain breakover angle but that too will compromise the sound. If all else fails, bite the bullet and spend more on a neck set than I paid for the guitar.... |
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Subject: RE: Gibson guitar strings for acoustic 12? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:59 AM Interesting dilemma Richard - please keep us posted on this. Who would you have do the neck reset? |
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Subject: RE: Gibson guitar strings for acoustic 12? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 12 Apr 07 - 09:03 AM is this you? http://www.didgeworld.com/Richard_Bridge/ |
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Subject: RE: Gibson guitar strings for acoustic 12? From: Richard Bridge Date: 12 Apr 07 - 09:45 AM No, I'm about twice the age and weight, and half the height, and don't play didgeridoo despite having lived in Australia from 1951 to 1954. I suspect I will take the neck reset (if all else fails, after all a bridge doctor is cheap to try first) to Graham Noden underneath Andy's in Denmark Street. He did a nice job on the replacement of the trussrod on my oldest Hagstrom J-45 that some previous owner had stripped (a thing that is supposed to be impossible, they are the best trussrods in the world), and he also for a friend of mine converted a superdreadnought 12-fret 12-string tailpiece guitar of unknown provenance and with no trussrod, but a reinforcing box girder, from tailpiece to pegbridge, reshaping the fingerboard to correct the neck relief and it sounds great and plays fine within the limitations of the fattest neck I have ever seen (so big no shubb will go on it, and even a bird capo had to be modified). |
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Subject: RE: Gibson guitar strings for acoustic 12? From: Geordie-Peorgie Date: 12 Apr 07 - 12:52 PM Aah! Richard! Aah wish aah had knaah'd ye wez on the look-oot for a new 12. Aa'm gettin' rid of me Takamine FP400S as it's surplus to requirement. Ye coulda tried it at Fareham. Anyways - Your 'Yammy' sound OK! Why another ??? |
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Subject: RE: Gibson guitar strings for acoustic 12? From: Richard Bridge Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:30 PM I wasn't on the lookout for it. It leapt off ebay and found me. The point is it is the exact match for the 6-string Mugen (you probably thought it was a Daion, Stacey did) I was also playing at Fareham, so I HAD to have it, and now it's going to be a disappointment. Ho Hum. Yes, I like the sound of the Yammy better than many more expensive guitars. A lot of bass for a 12 and not too much jangle, but the strings I was using have got to go as soon as the Elixirs arrive (I bet the buggers in customs have found them....) |
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Subject: RE: Gibson guitar strings for acoustic 12? From: Richard Bridge Date: 25 Apr 07 - 09:29 PM Well, we have some progress. The Elixirs arrived, but the pack of 10/47s turned out to be a 6 string set, not a 12-string set. One email to the supplier and he immediately said he would pop the correct set in the post, no charge! Brilliant service, step forward Dick's Country Store. Well recommended. Not here yet, but I hope will be soon. Guitar stripped and cleaned, brasso removed some scratches in top, and polished the characteristic brass on the Mugen. White spirit + old T-shirt plus soft bogroll (Sorry Cheryl Crow) cleaned body and neck. 3-in-one oil smoothed out the machine heads. Truss rod would not pull neck as far as seemingly necessary, so remove truss-rod nut entirely, grease nut with graphite grease, re-assemble but leave slack and without strings to settle. The Bridge Doctor arrived, good service from Stew-Mac. A couple of fitting games, ably resolved by Brian Rodgers. The top is now true, and the truss-rod brings neck with no strings to dead straight, with strings, forward relief better than 0.25mm. The top, although the plane of the bridge plates is not parallel to the plane of the front of the sides, still stands a little proud of the sides, so the action is still a bit high (3.3 mm at bass side, 2.2 at treble) and the usual trick of a straight-edge along the neck shows the intersection of that projection with the bridge plate is about 2.5 mm away from ideal. When all is settled it, and the neck progression re-set on the truss-rod, it looks as if it will be feasible to shave the saddle about 0.5 mm to 1 mm, and then finally re-cut the nut a little shallower, and get an acceptable (just) action. Currently strung with D'Addario 10-47s the sound is promising, and the critical relationship between saddle height and neck relief once established may enable the minimisation of the two sorts of string rattle that are so difficult to minimise in a 12, where the action needs to be low-ish to maintain playability, that is to say the rattle of string-on-string (I wonder why some 12s, with similar course gaps seem to suffer more than others with this) and the rattle of string on fret caused by excessive violence in playing! Once sorted I think it will be reasonable again, but I'm not sure it will be better than my Yamaha 12 in sound, no matter how nice it looks... Time to take the insomnia back to bed... |
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Subject: RE: Gibson guitar strings for acoustic 12? From: pirandello Date: 26 Apr 07 - 07:16 AM I'm curious as to why you felt a Bridge Doctor necessary; a little bellying in a top is perfectly acceptable and a natural occurrence. Also several builders-Gibson and Martin included-build-in a radius to the top. Was there much sinkage in the top between the bridge and soundhole which might indicate excessive dryness? If so you might want to consider re-humidifying the guitar; unless you already thought of that! The string-to-string rattle is always going to be a trade-off. Very light guage strings will have less tension at a given pitch and their vibration excursion will be greater. You'll get better tone and volume with a heavier set but at the expense of playing comfort. It's a lot of fun resurrecting old guitars, I hope this one turns out well for you. |
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Subject: RE: Gibson guitar strings for acoustic 12? From: Richard Bridge Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:45 AM The bridge was observably at an angle to the plane of the front of the sides, and as a result the saddle was canted forwards, not back the recommended 4 degrees, and the break angle was reduced to an extent that was going to make reducing saddle height to cure the action tricky if not impossible. The belly was greater than any other guitar I have, and there was a dip in front of the bridge. The belly was about twice what it is on my 6 string Mugen THE78, and that only acquired that belly after I put on (and speedily removed) 13/58s. It was also about twice that of the remaining belly on my very old fan-strutted Hagstrom J-45 The belly was about three times that of my two good (1966) Hagstrom J-45s, both of which are playing 13s. The belly was about 4 times that of my Morris, my Yamaha 12-string, My Martin OM, and my lodger's Gibson J-45. |
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