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Lyr Add: Don't You Rock So Hard (camp song)
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Subject: Lyr Add: DON'T YOU ROCK SO HARD (camp song) From: GUEST,Bob Coltman Date: 06 Mar 07 - 09:41 AM Lina Beard and Adelia Belle Beard (mother and daughter, I'm guessing from the context, and evidently accomplished outdoor veterans), were authors of "On the Trail, an Outdoor Book for Girls," Chas. Scribner's, NY, 1915, giving girls a lot of sensible advice on woodcraft, camping tips, etc. (It's available on Project Gutenberg if you want to check it out.) They include an intriguing camp song I've never seen anywhere else. No title is given, but I'll call it DON'T YOU ROCK SO HARD Leader: I spotted a beaver, but he wasn't very nye [=nigh], Chorus: Don't you rock so hard, Leader: His fur was all ragged and he had but one eye, Chorus: Don't you rock so hard. Refrain Oh! you rock and I rock, And don't you rock so hard, Everybody rocks when I rock, And don't you rock so hard. You may laugh at the beaver, but he's always up to time, Don't you ... Oh, do drop the beaver, and start a new rhyme, Don't you ... The Beards then write: "A song like this may go on indefinitely or until the rhyming powers of the party are exhausted," so it's clearly meant as a "Hey Li Lee Li Lee Lo" type of spontaneous composition song. That makes it one of the twentieth century's earliest everybody-kick-in-a-verse songs in the US, apart from skip-rope chants. Has anyone ever encountered this song in camping or anywhere else? Not the ladylike sort of song you might expect from authors in the Beards' time and place, it seems downright odd in the context. Perhaps derived from a sea chanty? It's certainly possible the Beards composed it, but it has a traditional sound. The "don't you rock" chorus recalls the "Sail Away Ladies" / "Dineo" / "Tideo" family of songs. And by the way, why are you not supposed to rock, or at least not so hard? I doubt it is risque as would have been thought a half century later. Does it have some other meaning here? Was it a group movement -- did the Beards, leading the song, rock (seated or standing) side to side, and was there some hilarity involved in trying to get kids to rock, but "not so hard?" Bob |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: Azizi Date: 06 Mar 07 - 10:59 PM Bob, I've not heard that song. But I agree with you that "The 'don't you rock'chorus recalls the "Sail Away Ladies" / "Dineo" / "Tideo" family of songs." My first introduction to recorded folk music {at least 'folk music' as I think most people here define it} was hearing a record by Odetta in the 1960s that included the song "Sail Away Ladies". I believe her version of the chorus was "Don't you rock it, Daddy-o" or "Don't you rock, Daddy-o". I loved her rendition of that song then. And I still love it now. As to your question, Bob "What you were not supposed to rock [that hard]?", I think the answer is 'your hips'. However, I'm wondering if "rocking [your hips]" was a more socially acceptable way of alluding to "shaking your butt". Remember the 1960s? R&B song "Shake your moneymaker"? Maybe the pre-1960s focus on rocking hips was because society wasn't ready to accept any general public mention of a woman's or man's ass. Of course, I could be wrong about this. Then again, I might be right. It also occurs to me that that 1915 "Don't You Rock So Hard" camp song might have been 'composed' around the same time as folks were dancing the Eagle Rock. Here's some information about that dance from http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3eaglerock1.htm : "The Eagle Rock basically is a dance movement, extending their arms in the "eagle wing," a gesture to evoke friends urging a slave, Daniel, to fly from the master's whip. The head tilts back while the body sways back and forth. It was named after the 'Eagle Rock Baptist Church' in Kansas City, known by blacks since the reconstruction era (after the Civil War) for the ecstatic, trance like movement during its services. The Eagle Rock originally had a hop in it but as it spread north and south it was discarded in favor of a shuffle. The Eagle rock started to wane in popularity in the early 1920s. Other stories on it [sic] creation: is said to be The 'Eagle Rock Reservation', (1920s) in Northern NJ where the Indian dancers would outstretch their arms like an eagle and sway back and forth. Another is the 'Eagle Rock Ferry of the Snake River Valley in Idaho during the 1860's is said that 'Rock Island' had an eagles nest on it, again the Eagle would sway back and forth (or rock) and the Ferry boat dancers would imitate the bird. The Eagle Rock replaced the similar dance called the 'Buzzard Lope' in popularity as the buzzard lope was associated with plantation life and considered to [sic]risque?. Another dance called the 'Shout' was similar to the Eagle Rock as well. Basic Step as it might be applied to another dance: (below Lyrics from 'Ballin The Jack' sheet music * First you put your knees together, close up tight, Then you sway 'em to left , then you sway 'em to the right. (a modified Georgia Grind) Step around the floor kind of nice and light, (implies a Cat Walk?) Then you twis' around, and twis' around with all your might, (a hip / Pelvis Roll) Then you do the Eagle Rock with style and grace, (Raise arms Like an eagle) Swing your foot way'round then bring it back, Now that's what I call Ballin' the jack" -snip- * I removed two lines from these lyrics which appear to me to be disjointed, repeated lines typed in error. Btw, I don't agree with the opinion that the buzzard lope was no longer danced because it was too risque. My opinion is that African Americans stopped dancing it because it was associated with slavery. The sense that I get from my reading is that after emancipation, many African Americans wanted to distance themselves from anything that reminded them of slavery. This included jubilees {spirituals} as well as social dances. Besides, Black Americans are good at coming up with new dances. Granted many of these dances are renamed and somewhat reconfigured old dance steps {note for instead the numerous African American bird or chicken dances}. However, it appears to me that we {African Americans} are more innovative than traditionalists. That might be part of the reason-or might be the only reason-why the "Buzzard Lope" was replaced with newer dances. Some folks might be wondering what my last comments have to do with 'rocking hard'. If you start with the premise that 'rocking' is a dance {and "rock-steady" is a more recent music & dance name} then you follow the steps that led me to the Buzzard Lope and beyond. Again, Bob, this may not be THE answer. But it is AN answer. :o} |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: Azizi Date: 06 Mar 07 - 11:37 PM instead=instance I'm assuming that the "shout" mentioned in that street swing quote is the ring shout that was 'performed' by enslaved African Americans during religious meetings. The traditional ring shout is described as a group of folks moving in a a counterclockwise circle while others clapped and sang call & response religious songs. Bob, I admit that this is going far away from the subject of this thread, but in the off chance that you or others might be interested, check out this YouTube video of an Eritrean {North East Africa} dance that -in my opinion-looks like the descriptions of the Shout that I've gotten from my reading... Eritrea - Wedi Tukul - Awalid Adey http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJP2bFfZu1A Well, perhaps the women dancing in that clip were more joyous than what I think folks participating in the ring shout were/ But still, that videoclip "reminds" me of what the Shout might have been like. That video clip also reinfoces the view that the ring shout had African roots. If the African American ring shout had African roots, those roots would have been from West Africa and Central Africa since most-if not all-enslaved Black Americans came from those regions of Africa. And if it's true that the the Eritrean/Ethiopian [North East African] dances in this clip are similar to the traditional West African {and/or Central African} dances that became the American ring shout, that would mean that there are some similarities between the traditional dances of those African regions. But, this similarity really shouldn't come as any surprise, as I've read and have been told {by a couple of folks from East Africa} that a number of West African and East African ethnic groups are Nilotic and trace their origins from the same people who make up the Eritreans/Ethiopians-the people of ancient Axum/Sudan/Ethiopia. ** Bob, sorry for going so far off topic. I hope to read other folks' comments about that the camp song "Don't You Rock So Hard". |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: GUEST,Bob Coltman Date: 07 Mar 07 - 08:16 AM Azizi, thanks for your remarks on rocking and not "rocking so hard." My puzzlement, I guess, is how this song, with its blunt and rather risque-sounding phrasing, showed up in a book for adolescent girls written by two evidently "respectable" white women who surely had to be concerned -- as are those who run children's camps to this day -- to preserve a spotless reputation for upright morals, etc. Which meant, of course, completely suppressing anything that might by any stretch be considered sexual innuendo. I'm inclined to think the two Ms. Beards did not perceive the hip-rocking implication we all instinctively do today. They hadn't the background. True, the Eagle Rock and Ballin' the Jack were items in popular lore from the 1920s, and had earlier roots in African-American culture. But that cultural barrier had yet to be crossed significantly by elegant white culture in 1915 when the book came out (pre-shimmy shake, and mostly too early even to have been affected by jazz). White dance of the time conspicuously lacked hip-grinding. Given their likely preconceptions, I'm betting the Beards thought of decorously rocking mostly the upper body. However, my question about rocking was a side issue. Also, I think the slight resemblance to "Sail Away" shouldn't be overstressed. This is clearly a very different song, which needs tracing in its own right. My main concern was to trace the "Don't You Rock So Hard" song specifically to its roots. It's possible that one or both of the Beards could have heard it from African-American girls as a game rhyme on the streets, though I can't trace the song to any of the early reporters of African-American lore -- Talley, White, Scarborough, Odum and Johnson, etc. It could just as easily be from some other source. But what made the Beards, as women writing a morally uplifting book for girls, use it in this context? Anyone have any idea what that source may be? Anyone ever heard a song that could conceivably be a variant of it? Bob |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 07 Mar 07 - 08:39 AM QUOTE from above ""The Eagle Rock basically is a dance movement, extending their arms in the "eagle wing," a gesture to evoke friends urging a slave, Daniel, to fly from the master's whip. The head tilts back while the body sways back and forth. It was named after the 'Eagle Rock Baptist Church' in Kansas City, known by blacks since the reconstruction era (after the Civil War) for the ecstatic, trance like movement during its services. The Eagle Rock originally had a hop in it but as it spread north and south it was discarded in favor of a shuffle. The Eagle rock started to wane in popularity in the early 1920s." UNQUOTE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Perhaps someone who knows their facts might wasnt to head over to Wikipedia to add some relevant material.... ~~~~~~~~~ Eagle Rock is a classic Australian song, released by Daddy Cool in May 1971. It went on to become the best selling Australian single of the year, achieving gold status in eleven weeks, and remaining at #1 on the national charts for a (then) record ten weeks. Guitarist Ross Wilson explained that the inspiration behind the song came from "a Sunday Times liftout magazine A-Z on music. In the before blues section there was an evocative photo of rural black Americans dancing in a dirt poor juke joint - the caption was along the lines of "some negroes 'cut the pigeon wing' and 'do the eagle rock'". Also note Eagle Rock can refer to one of the following: Eagle Rock (Idaho) - an early name for Idaho Falls, Idaho Eagle Rock, Los Angeles, California - a neighborhood in Los Angeles, California "Eagle Rock" (song) - a hit single for Australian band Daddy Cool Eagle Rock (Santa Cruz Mountains) - a peak in the Santa Cruz Mountains Eagle Rock Entertainment, a record label Eagle Rock Records, a record label ~~~~~~~~ oh, and BTW, :-) "Interestingly, 'Eagle Rock' is also notorious in Australia for a more bizarre reason. Since the mid 1980's, whenever the song has been played in a public bar or club, it has been common practice for Australian college students (largely male) to undo their belts and hobble around the area with their pants around their ankles for the duration of the song. Members of Daddy Cool have admitted to being perplexed over the origin of this practice." ~~~~~~ Oh, and even MORE interesting - I once watched Ross Wilson (on a certain music TV show by Safran!) play a version of his song on an African Thumb Piano! |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: Grab Date: 07 Mar 07 - 09:34 AM Bob, I doubt "don't you rock so hard" is a command, any more than "don't you look so fine" is a command... :-) Graham. |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 07 Mar 07 - 07:51 PM BOB - you are guilty of a common 20th century prejudice - one that fortunately, seldom carries into the 21st century...i.e. you are applying YOUR limited value system of today onto OTHERS in the past. In folk music this happens again and again. Your filty thoughts (influenced by television, film, literature, internet) would have disgraced and embarassed even a Freudian of the time.
Lets get down to basics:
This WAS a great thread start on your behalf...however, your ulterior motive is scandalous.
Shame, shame....double shame on you and your dirty, dirty mind.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 07 Mar 07 - 07:55 PM BTW - thank you BOB for posting this song
I was not familar with it until your postings
It should be one included in the next publication of the Digital Tradition.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 07 Mar 07 - 08:12 PM "Everybody rocks when I rock," Seems to be a sort of 'Simon Says' or 'follow the leader'. |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: GUEST,Bob Coltman Date: 08 Mar 07 - 08:20 AM Wow, Gargoyle, what a slam. And undeserved. I'm not guilty of the prejudice you accuse me of. On the contrary, I was trying to explore what, in my best judgment, might have been the likely frame of mind of people 90 years ago who DIDN'T think as I do. In fact, my views about sex and many other things differ sharply from what I suppose the Beards may have thought. And that's fine. I was not reflecting my prejudices (we all have a few), but trying to get a sense of this song in its place and time. That included making an informed guess as to what THEIR thinking (not mine) may have been. IMPORTANT: all the above too is a side issue. Let's drop it. Glad you like the song, anyway. Whew. That was the main, and the only important point. Also glad to learn Ms. Beard's relationship to Dan Beard and the Scouts. That's important information. #1 priority: Trying to trace the origins and variants of this song, folks! Let's un-creep this thread and bring it back to that main point, as I asked above. Thanks, Bob |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: GUEST,Bob Coltman Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:16 AM I'd like to make one more attempt to restart this thread, which seems to have been brought to a halt by the unfortunate misunderstanding above. I think "Don't You Rock So Hard" is too good a song to be dropped from discussion just because its thread has taken a bad turn. It's ironic too, because I was trying to acknowledge the differences between our time and 1915 in understanding / misunderstanding what a song does or does not imply. By doing so, I had hoped to head off the kind of innuendo that can sometimes bury a thread. Instead I got accused of having a dirty mind, etc. etc! I can think of no surer way to kill an inquiry. I'd like to think it was not malicious, but just one of those misguided attempts at kidding. Anyway, the message following asks a new question about the song, which I hope will provoke further discussion. And, of course, I'm still looking for any and all variants of "Don't You Rock So Hard." Bob |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: GUEST,Bob Coltman Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:24 AM The second verse of "Don't You Rock So Hard" seems to indicate that the extemporization of verses may have been twice as demanding as in the "Hey Li Lee" sort of song, where each person throws in a rhyming couplet. You may laugh at the beaver, but he's always up to time, Don't you rock so hard, Oh do drop the beaver, and start a new rhyme, Don't you rock so hard. The second line, carping at the first, makes it seem as if the campers were encouraged to start by one person tossing in the first line, which would then be capped by a rhyming third line by whichever other camper could think of it first. Neat, huh? And tricky to do, at singing speed. Anyone know of other group songs in which this is done? Bob |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:51 AM 'Martin said to his man' |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: GUEST,Bob Coltman Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:46 AM Thanks, Foolestroupe, but I meant the question to apply, not to songs whose words are already fixed, like "Martin," but only to improvisational songs -- i.e., those in which the participating singers make up new lines on the spot. Illustration: We're all sitting around a campfire. I pop up with a first line -- or, perhaps, the song leader even points to me and forces me to come up with one, fast. After I fumble around a moment (everybody meanwhile laughing and kidding around) I manage to make up the following: Don't drop the beaver, he's a lot of fun, Then, as rapidly as possible while everyone is singing the chorus line "Don't you rock so hard," and trying not to miss a beat, someone else in the circle makes up a new line that rhymes, like Isn't this beaver ever going to be done? Don't you rock so hard. In other words, songs that already have fixed words don't apply -- just songs to which words are made up in the course of singing. Offhand I can't think of any other improvisational songs in which people cap each other's rhymes like this. Bob |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: Azizi Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:59 AM Bob, I believe there is a great deal of evidence from the examination of African American secular song traditions to prove that the "don't you rock" chorus and the lines about the appearance of an animal are from the African American secular dance song & play song traditions. However, I think that the line "Oh, do drop the beaver, and start a new rhyme" is probably an add-on line that may come from the Beards themselves or from other Anglo-Americans persons who felt it was needed to clue the singers that the same pattern of singing should be followed with another animal. I think we {African Americans} would have just started the song again with the focus on another animal. In other words, the 'start a new rhyme' line doesn't seem authentically "Black" to me. Having thought about this song [some more], I'd like to offer these comments: I believe that the "don't you rock/ don't you rock so hard" chorus as given above is from African American song tradition of using the verb "rock" to mean dance and specifically to shake your hips back and forth. I know that 'rock' also can refer to the sex act. But I don't think it is meant that way in this song. And btw, I think Grab made a good point that the line "dont you rock so hard" is probably an observation/compliment about how well the person or persons are dancing rather than a question. I also think that the lines describing and actually 'dissing' [insulting] an animal's appearance {starting with the beaver having ragged fur and only one eye; and then presumably following that pattern with another animal the next time around} come from African American secular dance song traditions. Those lines about the beaver remind me of this rhyme/song in Thomas W. Talley's 1922 book "Negro Folk Songs" : TAILS De coon's got a long ringed bushy tail, De 'possum's tail is bare: Dat rabbit hain't got no tail 'tall, "Cep' a liddle bunch o' hair. De gobbler's got a big fan tail, De pattridge's tail is small; Dat peacock's tail's got great big eyes. But dey don't see nothin' 'tall. {Talley, Kennikat Press, Inc, edition, 1968; p. 5 -snip- Talley also includes a rhyme about the bedbug in the same book {p. 96}. Here's the first verse of that rhyme: BEDBUG De June-bug's got de golden wing, De Lightning-bug got de flame; De Bedbug's got no wing at all, But he gits dar jes de same. -snip- I think both of those animal songs from Talley's collection follow the same formula as "Don't You Rock So Hard" in that they describe an animal as having some defect, but indicate that the defect doesn't really matter because the animal {or the bedbug, insect} still is able to do what he {she/it} has to do. As found in the "Don't You Rock So Hard"-"you may laugh at the beaver, but he's always up to time". This line implies that 'you're the fool' {or, at least "you're foolish"} if you laugh at the beaver's raggedy hair and one eye, as these things are because in the long run, these things are unimportant. In addition, it seems to me that one of the underlying purposes of these types of songs were for children and others to get the message and internalize that appearance is of no real regard. I'm not a big proponent of coded messages in spirituals. However, I'm more likely to believe that play songs and dance songs from slavery time and soon after emancipation often had layered meanings that could serve to help Black children develop and reinforce their self-esteem and group esteem. Black children were bound to be insulted for their skin color and other physical appearances by folks outside {and inside} their race. Songs that taught "it just doesn't matter" would therefore help to lessen the sting of these insults AND help children/youth/adults brush off those insults. "[The beaver'sfur was all ragged and he had but one eye/...You can laugh at the beaver but he's always up to time". In addition to the example already given from Talley, here's another example of an African American children's "plantation" play song that [I believe] was meant to reinforce self-esteem and teach children to 'play pass' {ignore} appearance insults: YOU CALL ME DOG, I DON'T KER You call me dog, I don' ker. Oh, my Lord! You call me dog, I don' ker, Oh rockum jubalee. You call me cat, I don' ker. Oh, my Lord! You call me cat, I don' ker, Oh rockum jubalee. You call me mule, I don' ker. Oh, my Lord! You call me mule, I don' ker, Oh rockum jubalee. You call me snake, I don' ker. Oh, my Lord! You call me snake, I don' ker, Oh rockum jubalee. -snip- Dorothy Scarborough, "On The Trail Of Negro-Folk Songs",Folklore Associates Edition, 1963, p. 190; originally published in 1925. Scarborough writes these comments about "You Call Me Dog, I Don't Care": "This was used to teach very young children to "shout and clap", which was done in syncopated time as an accompaniment. The verses were endless, as every known and unknown biological speciment was introduced." -snip- While I can certainly imagine this song being used for the purpose Scarborough mentions, it's interesting to me that that White woman focused on HOW the song was performed, and not the words of the song. I very much believe that there's more meaning in these words than just "endless [verses] of every known and unknown biological speciment..." I've more to add to this discussion in my next post. |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:00 AM "I meant the question to apply, not to songs whose words are already fixed, like "Martin,"" In the SCA (a sub-cult! with many thousands of people involved world wide!), that song is regularly a favourite, and new words are added every performance by those present - a few favourites hang around for a while. Some performances take place round fireplaces on camping events, some take place in halls for feasts... I acquired a period hat which sorta looks like half a football... which (as a result of a long story) eventually generated the following... Robin The Ruthless dresses all in red If that's his hat, what shape's his head? :-) |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: Azizi Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:12 AM I'd now like to focus on the line "He's [the beaver is] always up to time" . It seems to me that this line can be updated to "he's always on time". This line reminds me of a commonly heard African American saying "God may not come when you want Him, but He's always on time. This saying is often given in a call & response manner, meaning that if someone says "God may not come when you want Him", there's the expectation that you will say "[Yes], but He's always on time." I don't know when this tradition started. I don't remember it from my childhood and youth though I do remember the saying itself. But it is very common among Christain African Americans, at least in my city {Pittsburgh, PA and surrounding areas}. At least I should say that it is common to those who go to church and those who know the church culture though they don't go to church. What does this have to do with the 'camp song' Don't You Rock So Hard'? Maybe nothing at all. But that saying came to mind when I thought about this song again as you suggested, Bob. And I thought about something else which I'll write about in my next post to this thread. |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: GUEST,Bob Coltman Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:14 AM Azizi, I agree that the "start a new rhyme" line sticks out like a sore thumb. It's not only not African-American, it's not typical of any traditional song. But I take it to be a logical improvisation in a situation in which the children singing are using their contributed lines not just to advance the story, but to sass each other as well. You probably wouldn't find one singer ragging another to "start a new line" in any other context apart from teasing, game and campfire songs in which the singers are using the song as a conversation and a contest of wits. I do think you're right that the "Don't you rock so hard" framework is likely to be African-American, and I wish we knew the circumstances under which the Beards learned it. That raises the whole question: what WAS the repertoire of campfire songs in the late nineteenth century? (Granted the notion of "camping" was somewhat new -- probably derived in some part from familiarity with "tenting" during the Civil War.) If this song is a sample, it should be a fascinating area to explore. Bob |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: GUEST,Bob Coltman Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:16 AM Foolestroupe, I stand corrected. In all the many times I've heard "Martin" I hadn't heard it used for improvisation. Very glad to learn that it is! Which reminds me that one other context where one singer is rhyming with and capping another's line may be rugby, hash and other raucous contexts. Although (as in improvs to bawdy songs such as"I Used to Work in Chicago" or "Gathering of the Clan / Ball of Kerriemuir") it's more usual to kick in couplets than single lines to be topped by someone else's line. Bob |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:19 AM Bob 'Martin' is usually done as a couplet by the one person - but sometimes there are collaborations before hand - most of the verses are obviously not totally spontaneous, but worked out beforehand - based on recent incidents involving 'local personalities' in the group. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: SETTIN' ON A RAIL From: Azizi Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:35 AM If "Don't You Rock So Hard" is from the African American play song tradition {excluding the line Oh, do drop the beaver, and start a new rhyme" as I've suggested}, then I wonder if the "beaver" is a substitution for a raccoon {coon} or a 'possum'. Not that it matters in the song's performance, for like the song "You Call Me Dog, I Don't Ker" The verses [could be]endless, as every known and unknown biological specimen [could be]introduced." It seems to me that there are many more African American plantation children's songs about raccoons and possums than about beavers. For instance, see the third verse from "Settin' On A Rail {Dorothy Scarborough "On The Trail Of Negro Folk-Songs", pps. 178-179}. Maybe because I'm thinking of it, but I wonder if this verse in any way alludes to the line in "Don't You Rock So Hard" about the beaver having one eye: SETTIN' ON A RAIL' As I walked by de light ob de moon, So merrily singing dis same tune, I cum across a big raccon, A-sittin' on a rail, sittin' on a rail, Sittin' on a rail, sittin' on a rail. Sleepin 'wery sound. I at de raccon take a peep, An' den so softly to him creep, I found de raccoon fast asleep, An' pull him off de rail, pull him off de rail, Pull him off de rail, pull him off de rail, An' fling him on de ground. De raccon's 'gan to scratch and bite, I hit him once wid all my miht, I bung he eye an' spile his sight, Oh, I'm dat chile to fight, I'd dat chile to fight, I'm dat chile to fight, I'd dat chile to fight, An' beat de banjo, too... -snip- Scarborough writes "This is an old version of the song I have found, with no ascription of authorship and no copyright, a fact that indicates its age, at least, whether it be an old minstrel song or a genuine folk song". -snip- Again, this may not have anything to do with the camp song that is the focus of this thread. But perhaps it does. Best wishes, Azizi |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: Azizi Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:46 AM Bob, re your 11 Mar 07 - 08:14 AM comment, if this song is from the African American tradition of childrne's play songs {or dance songs}, it's also an example of how these songs and other songs from Black musical traditions-including spirituals and gospel songs-can be "changed up" in words, performance, and intent {purpose or purposes} when taking up {if not taken over} by non-Black singers. I'm not downing this practice, as it's part of the folk tradition. But I think this observation is relevant to this discussion, though I won't go off topic and add any examples beyond this one. |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 11 Mar 07 - 09:06 PM AZIZI - Taking your line of the reasoning (and it is reasonable) - the song would be similar to Mr. Rabbit from a previous thread.
Mr. Rabbit Mr Rabbit, your ears are mighty long
Mr. Rabbit Mr. Rabbit, your ears are mighty thin,
Mr Rabbit, Mr. Rabbit, your ears are mighty red
Mr. Offer has posted an excellent "Cotton Field Song" documentation to the thread:
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=48941
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: Azizi Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:35 AM Bob, you wrote: "I do think you're right that the "Don't you rock so hard" framework is likely to be African-American, and I wish we knew the circumstances under which the Beards learned it." -snip- Do we know where Lina Beard & Adelia Belle Beard lived. If they lived in an area that had a population of Black families, then it is likely they could have heard children singing this song. Or they could have asked an African American adult what song they remembered from their childhood {it indeed this is a children's play song and not an African American dance song for adults and younger. Or they could have collected this song like Dorothy Scarborough did with the content of "On The Trail Of Negro-Folk Songs" which was published 38 years after the Beard's book. In addition to her own "field collection", Scarborough gathered the songs in her book from other White friends and acquaintances who wrote her or otherwise told her about these songs. Scarborough then indicated in the book how she got the songs. I'm wondering if Lina and Adelle Belle Beard provide any notation about where they got the other songs in the book that includes the "Don't You Rock So Hard" song. |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: GUEST,Bob Coltman Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:50 AM No, Azizi, unfortunately the song is given without any explanation, simply as an example of entertainment the campers can make for themselves. And this is the only song in the book. Bob |
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Subject: Lyr Add: JOHNNY CUCKOO From: Azizi Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:02 AM Gargoyle, I believe that the "every little soul must shine" line from the "Mr. Rabbit" song might be helpful in shoring up self-esteem. However, I think that instead of teaching self-esteem, the "hidden" or secondary purpose of the "Mr Rabbit" play song is to teach Black children to quickly think their way out of difficulties {ie. "to be quick witted". Needless to say, songs that reinforce self-esteem and songs that reinforce quick wittedness are helpful for children of any race. My comments focus upon Black children because it's my theory that certain African American children's play songs were purposely used {if not purposely composed} to teach & to reinforce survival skills that were/are needed because of the racist attitudes and actions these children were/are bound to face. Though it is off-topic to this thread, I consider the following song to be a good example of an African American children's song which teaches self-esteem and group-esteem: JOHNNY CUCKOO Group Here comes one Johnny Cuckoo, Cuckoo, Cuckoo. Here comes one Johnny Cuckoo, on a cold and stormy night. Group What did you come for, come for, come for? What did you come for, on a cold and stormy night? Soloist #1 I come to be a soldier, soldier, soldier. I come to be a soldier, on a cold an stormy night. Group You are too black and dirty, dirty, dirty. You are too black and dirty on a cold and stormy night. Soloist #1 I'm just as good as you are you are, you are. I'm just as good as you are on a cold and stormy night. (repeat entire song with soloist #2 etc.) -snip- "Johnny Cuckoo" is a traditional game song from the Georgia Sea Isles. The song is included in a four CD collection of Southern folk songs (Alan Lomax,"Sounds of the South" Atlantic Recording Corp, 1993). Disc 4 is "African American songs from the Georgia Sea Isles" Johnny Cuckoo is also included in "Step It Down: Games, Plays, Songs and Stories from the Afro-American Heritage" by Bessie Jones and Bess Lomax Hawes. |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: GUEST Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:12 AM "Johnny Cuckoo" has roots far back in England's children's game songs as "Three (or Six) Dukes a-Roving." The number of dukes changes according to how many kids are playing. But aren't we straying too far from the song that started the thread? Doesn't anyone know more details about it? |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: Azizi Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:33 AM Guest. My theory is that a song may be used for multiple purposes. Perhaps you didn't notice that I wrote that songs may not have been composed for the purpose they are used for at a particular time. And yes, I confess that I have strayed. ;o) I won't post again to this thread unless I have something on topic to say. Best wishes, Azizi |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:18 PM Azizizizi - you appear to be an unfortunate species of "educational" something....you have "AN AGENDA." Unfortunate!!!
The mudcat SHOULD NOT - be used for AUTHENTICATING - anything.
There is too, too, too much speculation and here-say (like in this thread) and little primary source material that can be validated.
However, Baden Powell, the British founder of "Scouting for Boys" served in South Africa during the Boar-Wars....(now if YOU want to make the connection between the two.....then it is up to your African/American....bias to make the jump) no scholorship involved....just another MudCat jump of ill-reason.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: Azizi Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:42 PM Gargoyle, I said that I wouldn't post in this thread unless I had something on topic to say. So that's why I'm not responding to your last comment. ;o) |
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Subject: RE: Camp song: Don't You Rock So Hard From: Bee Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:43 PM I am always interested in what Azizi has to say, even if it occasionally turns to speculation, something all of us do from time to time, and sometimes to a good end. |
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