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F holes in violins/fiddles: Why?
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Subject: F holes: Why? From: Dazbo Date: 28 Feb 07 - 07:51 AM Is there any reason why instruments in the violin family have F holes? Is it due to the structure (available space, strength requirements) of the violin or does it affect (or should that be effect) the sound tone or quality if you have a different shaped hole? |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: s&r Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:02 AM Yes, it changes the tone if the holes are changed. Whether they could be replaced by slots of a similar dimension is arguable, but the instrument woul lose some grace IMO This gives a good explanation of many of the factors Stu |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: Scrump Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:14 AM Interesting question Dazbo. But if would be nice to know why that particular shape. Did violin makers try different shaped holes and find that this one gives a better sound? Of course some types of guitar (usually 'semi-acoustic' electric ones) have similar shaped 'f' holes, presumably based on those in violins, but most tend to have a circular one. I always assumed the circular hole gives better volume for acoustic guitars, and the 'f' holes on 'semi-acoustic' electrics were there to give a different tone from a solid bodied electric. Is that right? Has anyone ever made a fiddle with a circular hole like a guitar? |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: Dave Hanson Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:15 AM The difference between f holes and round or oval holes is instantly more audibly discernable on mandolins. eric |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: Susan of DT Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:33 AM Dulcimers (mountain) have a variety of sound holes, including some with f holes, along with hearts, diamonds, circles, etc. It does not seem to be critical what shape it is on a dulcimer. |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: IanC Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:37 AM Er ... could we get the name of this thread subtly changed? It sounds so rude. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: Scrump Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:39 AM Doh! I hadn't even though of that IanC, and my mind is as dirty as the next person's - it seems yours is worse though :-) |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: s&r Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:43 AM Any other shape don't look as good Stu |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: John Hardly Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:47 AM It's because way back when the fiddle was invented, Congreff enacted a Conftitufional Convention that all fiddles have F holes. Basically, just a misunderftanding. |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: Scrump Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:49 AM John Hardly - what's a 'siddle'? :-) |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: kendall Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:51 AM There used to be a number of fully acoustic guitars on the market with F holes, and I never heard one that had much color, or warmth. I'll take the good old Dreadnaught or Jumbo every time. |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: GUEST,Waddon Pete Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:55 AM Hello, I think a siddle is when an uninvited violinist tries to join in with your session! Best wishes, Peter |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: JohnInKansas Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:56 AM Q: Why are steam radiators painted silver when everyone knows that black is a better heat radiating surface? A: Because silver is prettier. There actually are some good reasons why the f-hole is favored, although tradition, and esthetic appeal, probably has much to do with it for many instruments where they're seen. Having f-holes doesn't necessarily mean that the builder has used the features of the f-hole in all the ways that they can be used. In an instrument where it is intended to tune the "air resonance" of the soundbox, it's possible to make small changes in the effective cross-section area of the holes with f-holes without getting lumpy holes. With a round hole, if one tries to keep the hole round, any very small change in the hole diameter results in a rather large change in the hole area. The f-hole is thus much easier to "tweak" to exactly the desired box resonant fequency. There's virtually no agreement among builders as to what that frequency really should be for a given instrument; but at least the ability to tune it is more readily there with f-holes. There are a number of other reasons why, in an instrument where particular characteristics are needed, the f-hole is more amenable to "fine tuning" of the instrument. Some of the reasons are fairly simple in concept (like the area adjustment) and others really need an advanced math degree or two. My impression is that round/single hole mandolins generally have much larger effective hole area than comparable f-hole ones, and the typical difference in total effective hole area is probably more responsible for the difference in tone than the simple round vs. f-hole choice, although every luthier has different ideas about what makes an instrument best. John |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Feb 07 - 09:00 AM It's to make it harder to insert the tool that you use to re-position the sound post inside. :~) ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 28 Feb 07 - 09:24 AM An f-hole shape is flexible and can move with the top, which is under continual stress. A more linear shape, like a diamond, is inflexible and would be prone to cracking. |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: Jack Campin Date: 28 Feb 07 - 09:31 AM Radiators are usually painted white. The reason is that you want the *least* efficient heat radiating surface you can get. That way the whole system stays hot instead of the first radiator in the chain losing all the heat the boiler puts in. There are stringed instruments that adopt the same idea - the Romanian cobza has tiny soundholes and the Turkish saz often has none at all. Makes for better bass response. I don't see any attempt to explain f-holes on the UNSW site that s&r suggested. |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: s&r Date: 28 Feb 07 - 09:55 AM But you can see the effect on the chadni patterns Stu |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: Jim Lad Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:22 AM When I was a lad and occasionally showed up for school, we were taught that the "F" hole was chosen because it was found to be the largest and most pleasing hole which could be cut on the face, without reducing the strength. Seems, back in the day, before stupid baggage handlers, some were actually concerned about not breaking other peoples instruments and you didn't find your guitar, upside down on the conveyor belt or look out and see it lying on the cold wet tarmac... Sorry about that. It's the largest hole they could put on the fiddle without reducing the strength. |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: katlaughing Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:29 AM I believe the size of it matters also. My dad and his old violin teacher/maker decided, a long time ago before it was mine, the f-holes on my fiddle were slightly too large. So, if you look VERY carefully, you will see where he added a sliver of wood to each one, making them just a hair smaller along the edges. It has always been one of the best examples of his skill as a fiddle-maker, imo. |
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Subject: RE: F holes: Why? From: Tootler Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:31 AM Viols have "C" shaped holes which seem to be just as effective in their own way. Although viols and violins are both bowed strings there are definite differences in their sound. To what extent do the different shaped sound holes contribute to these differences? |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Jim Lad Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:34 AM Tooter: You spelt "Violas" wrong twicet! |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Scrump Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:38 AM So, if you look VERY carefully, you will see where he added a sliver of wood to each one I've tried looking very hard, but I can't see nowt. Maybe my eyes are needing testing :-) |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:38 AM Doesn't "viol" mean bass and isn't it played in the C-clef? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: s&r Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:44 AM Viols are similar to violins, but have sloping shoulders, and are 'chubbier'in appearance. The double bass is a bass viol rather than a bass violin: it's sometimes so described. Stu |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: s&r Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:45 AM Picture Stu |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: katlaughing Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:48 AM LOL, Scrump! Maybe I'll post a picture. Jim Lad, you spelt "Tootler wrong. :-) |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: s&r Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:48 AM Double bass Stu |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: MaineDog Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:49 AM It's because someone had trouble playing in f and thought that it might make it easier to get those odd notes out... Woof! |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:51 AM In the US there's a TV show (in reruns now) where the family all say goodnbight to one another at the end of every episode. "Good night, Erin." "Good night, Elizabeth." And so forth, through the whole large family. One of the characters is JohnBoy-- John the younger, like John, Junior. So I think Jim Lad is spelled wrong! Given the time of day, would that be "Good night, JimLad." ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: GUEST Date: 28 Feb 07 - 11:07 AM In a book about violins, Yehudi Menuhin wrote about the "f holes", and added, "let no untoward thoughts enter the mind" (or something like that); which, of course, ensured that they did even when such ideas had never occurred in the first place. So it seems IanC isn't the only one. Actually, Yehudi spent more time in the book writing about diet and exercise than he did about playing the damned thing. |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: GUEST Date: 28 Feb 07 - 11:07 AM Previous message from GUEST "Fiddler". |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Charley Noble Date: 28 Feb 07 - 11:15 AM I always thought these holes were needed to prevent the instrument from exploding. That's one of the reasons I worry about blue-grass musicians who insist on putting resonators on their banjos. Some day soon -- KAPOEY!!! clink ... Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: JohnInKansas Date: 28 Feb 07 - 11:15 AM In colloquial usage, viol means any instrument in the family. Some people who actually know something about these monsters are more finicky about usage. One requirement met by the f-hole is that a "sharp corner" creates a weakness that's likely to result in splitting, hence the "knobby" at the end of the f-hole. A similar knob is usually found at the ends of the C-hole used in some larger instruments. The f-hole is best suited to use in "arch top" instruments, and if you see one in a flat-top it's probably just there for "artistic purposes," although if one tries really hard some benefit might be gained by it. A hole is necessary to allow the air volume inside the box to have a resonance at a useful frequency. The long slim slit can be made to follow a "line of flexibility" (a soft spot) in the arch top, so that the hole can be added with a minimal reduction in the stiffness of the top. If you weaken it where it's already going to bend, the effect is less than if you weaken it somewhere that's (meant to be) stiff. In an alternative manner of use, the slit can follow a "nodal line" where the top doesn't flex regardless of how "weakened" it's made, similarly obtaining a "hole" without greatly affecting the mechanical action of the top plate. A slit that followed the grain of the wood would transfer all the flexure due to difference in motion on the two sides of the slit to the ends of the slit, hence the f-hole is slightly slantywise to the grain which allows the stresses to be spread a bit away from the slit itself. The stresses are still concentrated somewhat at the ends of the slit, hence the fairly large radius that "turns around" the stress pattern and then dissipates it in the round knob at the end of the f. The "curl" in the end of the slit is to change the direction of the stresses so that they're carried "cross grain" instead of in the weaker direction of the wood, then they reach the "anti-splitting" knob at the end. The f-hole likely would be an S-hole except for the traditional "notch" that's cut to mark the proper location of the bridge, which makes it into an "f." Usually the notch is small enough to have little effect on the sound, but it can be enlarged somewhat if a small increase in effective hole area is needed. The air-volume resonance frequency is inversely proportional to the volume of air in the box, and proportional to the total effective cross section area of all the holes in the box. A simple calculation of the area of the holes is not really adequate to assess the effective area of the holes, since there are "edge effects" that make air motion near an edge a bit more sluggish than out in the middle of the hole. For many "fluid flow" calculations the effective area of a hole is represented by a concept called the "hydraulic diameter," which is calculated by dividing the actual physical area by the "circumference" of the hole. (Toss in factors of "Pi" and other constants as needed.) The effective area is then the area that a round hole at the "hydraulic diameter" would have, rather than the actual area of the hole. (Add other constants to make things come out right.) A round hole has a pretty much fixed ratio of circumference to area; but an f-hole has a relatively large "circumference" for a given area. This means you can tweak the effective area much more subtly with an elongated (f-shaped) hole than with a simpler round one. As an example, if you cut the hole out a little too much, you can add a "wiggle" in the slit (make the f more curly) to increase the "circumference" more than you increase the area, and "take out" (part of) the mistake. Just skimming the surface. ... John |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Scrump Date: 28 Feb 07 - 11:25 AM I'm surprised at that filthy b*gg*r Yehudi, saying that :-) Maybe the person who made the first fiddle all them years ago, said to his apprentice "I want you to put some effin' holes in it", and his apprentice misunderstood :-) |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: kendall Date: 28 Feb 07 - 11:36 AM Charlie, that sounds like wishful thinking! |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Jim Lad Date: 28 Feb 07 - 11:44 AM Yous are a hoot! Was "Tootler" the only word I spelt rong? Grin |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Jim Lad Date: 28 Feb 07 - 12:30 PM I thought "Twicet" was a dead give away. Should have followed up with "Grin" Good Morning all! Jim |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: leeneia Date: 28 Feb 07 - 02:55 PM Here's a link images of some violins http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.usd.edu/smm/Violins/Amati5260/5260AmatiViolinFrontOnlyLG.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.usd.edu/smm/Violins/AmatiQuartet/BodyComparisons.html&h=600&w=378&sz=347&tbnid=CLEPALQ5TVr90M:&tbnh=135&tbnw=85&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dviolin%2Bimage&start=2&ei=UtvlRf_MHIrMpwLRyelp&sig2=NytjzZPXajrY-zz9i4D2jA&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=2 (Don't try to type it all at once.) You'll notice that the F-holes end in circles. I learned the hard way why that is so. One day, my beloved guitar was in its case, but the case was open. Something heavy fell on it, and the lid of the case slammed down, hitting the top of the guitar and cracking it. I called my brother, who's quite the musician, and told him the sad story. He said, "This is the big question. Did the crack go over any glued joints?" I said no. Then he told me that the fix is simple. We should drill round holes at the ends of the crack. A round hole will prevent the crack from propagating along grain lines. The DH was only too glad to help rescue my precious guitar. He put a sewing machine needle in the electric drill and drilled the required holes while I held the guitar steady. (He used a needle because we only needed a very small hole.) I bought wood putty and filled the crack, and the guitar has been fine ever since. That was probably 15 years ago. So one thing we know about F-holes is why the ends are round. |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: katlaughing Date: 28 Feb 07 - 03:02 PM LOL, Jim Lad and Scrump! |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Scoville Date: 28 Feb 07 - 03:03 PM Leeneia's violin link. |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Scoville Date: 28 Feb 07 - 03:04 PM Sorry, leeneia--didn't mean to take over your comment but my URL window often won't let me cut-and-paste multiple-line URL's in one shot. I thought this might make life easier in case anyone else has that problem. Very cool violins, by the way. |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Songster Bob Date: 28 Feb 07 - 04:48 PM As to the difference between f-hole and o-hole guitars -- they are different beasts, made for different sounds. The flat-top guitar, which has the round soundhole, is based on the earliest classical guitars, and the soundhole is intended to maximize the tone and volume of the instrument. With gut (or nylon) strings, you don't need heavy bracing, so the braces under the bridge and throughout the top are there only to keep the top vibrating in the proper manner and to prevent self-destruction, as the tension of the strings tries to both lift the bridge and rotate it and to pull the bridge into the soundhole. With steel strings, the top began to be braced with a large pair of braces forming an "X", effectively crossing just in front of the bridge. All flat-top guitars try for a tone with lots of lows and mids, and a long decay (pluck the string and it rings forever). But in the early part of the last century, there arose a need for an instrument with even more volume and a sharp, actually somewhat nasal tone -- with rapid note decay. Someone (actually, a man named Lloyd Loar, who worked for the Gibson mandolin & guitar company) decided that the violin was a good place to start when making a lead instrument, one with lots of volume and quick decaying notes. He produced the f-hole mandolin (the Gibson F-5) and the archtop guitar (the Gibson L-5). All archtop guitars since then have been intended for the kind of music that features punchy, quick-decaying notes and reasonable, if not loud, volume. So we find them in use for jazz and pop bands, and, in an interesting happenstance, country music (as personified by Mabel Carter's playing in the original Carter Family). Not everyone likes the archtop sound, and some of the cheaply-made ones are pretty harsh-sounding, but for what they are intended for, there is no substitute. Try playing western swing with a D-28, and you will get mush instead of sharp "sock" chords that provide you with the rhythmic pulse of the Texas Playboys or similar bands. Similarly, F-5 mandolins are more prominent in (and suited to) bluegrass than, say, an oval-hole model like the Gibson "A" series, which usually have sweeter tones that don't decay as quickly. Different folks needs different strokes, you might say. Songbob |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: JohnInKansas Date: 28 Feb 07 - 05:16 PM With respect to Leeneia's report on the use of "stop holes" to prevent cracks from getting bigger, the same method is frequently used in both aircraft and automotive maintenance. The story is told of a squadron that was equipped with the newest and best airplanes, but encountered the minor problem that under the higher "g loadings" permitted by the immense engines and spectacular maneuverability of the new planes - several suffered the indignity of having large portions of the load-carrying skins of the wings fall off. Calls for assistance to "headquarters" got the assurance that "our guys are working on it," but no practical or timely assistance. After replacing large wing portions on several airplanes, one of the old-line mechanics proposed that he could solve the problem. Given approval to "try anything," the mechanic simply drilled an entire row of small holes along the line where the critical failure had been occuring. The "fix" provided by the mechanic was quite successful, and no further loss of wing skins was encountered; but when the report of what had been done was forwarded to headquarters they were unable to understand exactly why it had worked. Emergency orders were issued to transport the mechanic back to a home base to explain to the "big boys," and when he arrived he simply handed them a box of crackers. When they still didn't understand, he pointed at the edge of the box where it said "tear along dotted line" and explained: "Any ^%^$# fool knows that there's no way anything ***@!//^ thing with a #$@@%%*&&! dotted line on it ever tears along the #$@!(*_! dotted line." Or so I've heard the story ... John |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Tootler Date: 01 Mar 07 - 06:25 AM Jim Lad, I spelt VIOL Correctly. The viol family are different instruments from the violin family. Two obvious differences are that they (generally) have six rather than four strings and are fretted. There are other differences and they have a different sound to the violin family instruments. For more information on the viol family, click here For a picture of modern viol players, click here |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Grab Date: 01 Mar 07 - 06:51 AM Re F-holes in violins, consider placement of the bridge and the bass bar. The bass bar is a resonating strut that runs the length of the top, roughly down the centre (offset slightly towards the G side). Obviously you can't have a soundhole in the centre, because the bass bar would get in the way. Further out? Well then you hit the bridge and the soundpost. The bridge has two feet which press down on the top, and the soundpost pushes up from a spot somewhere inside of them. The stresses here mean that you don't want any breaks in the grain where these go - you need a continuous bit of wood to take the pressure. So if you imagine two lines up the top at the edges of the bridge feet, the soundholes have to go outside of those lines. F-hole mandolins don't have quite the same problem with the bridge, but they do still have the bass bar preventing the use of a single central soundhole. Mandolins with a single central soundhole generally have two struts in an A shape (or inverted V shape, if you like) which go either side of the soundhole. To be honest though, I think the main reason that there are F holes on violins (and other instruments), and the placement of the soundhole on guitars (and other instruments), is more down to tradition than design. Ditto strut placement. As far as I can see, everyone just follows the person before, because if they didn't then their instruments wouldn't look like a "proper" violin/guitar and they wouldn't sell. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Scrump Date: 01 Mar 07 - 07:52 AM Songster Bob - thanks for that, it's very interesting. JohninKansas - LOL :-) Graham wrote: To be honest though, I think the main reason that there are F holes on violins (and other instruments), and the placement of the soundhole on guitars (and other instruments), is more down to tradition than design. Ditto strut placement. As far as I can see, everyone just follows the person before, because if they didn't then their instruments wouldn't look like a "proper" violin/guitar and they wouldn't sell. Could the round hole on a conventional guitar be somewhere else, and still sound as loud/have the same tone? I just wondered. There may be advantages in having the hole somewhere else, from the viewpoint of the structure, and for adding pickups, etc., or even extending the fretboard higher (I've seen those guitars that have lots of small holes instead of one big 'un). |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Mar 07 - 10:18 AM Scrump - There have been lots of "innovative" instruments, expecially guitars that have used variations in sound hole size, shape, and location ranging from the "slightly modified" to "incredibly bizarre." Some of them sound a little different, and some sound pretty much like a more ordinary guitar. The volume of the air box affects loudness to some extent, with larger generally being louder; but too large a volume makes it difficult to "tune" the air resonance to where the builder wants it. Larger total area of the hole(s) increases the resonant frequency, but reduces the amount of "compression" in the air, so loudness is reduced by the need for an excessive amount of "release" - too many holes - needed for tuning a box volume that's too large. Any change in the design of an instrument, from the conventional configurations developed over many years of trial and error, may produce an intended result but also quite likely will produce another "effect," which will require another change to compensate for that effect; but which will produce an additional effect that requires another change to compensate for the additional unintended effect, which will ... ... ... . (Hopefully you get the idea why luthiers all show evidence of at least some (usually mild) deviant personality traits.) John |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Jim Lad Date: 01 Mar 07 - 10:21 AM Ah Tootler: I can see my humour is lost on you. Have a nice day. |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Scrump Date: 01 Mar 07 - 10:22 AM Thanks for that John. I guess that's why most guitars look more or less the same - it's been found to be the most practical after a lot of trial and error attempts to improve it. It would be a shame if people stopped trying to improve it though. |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 01 Mar 07 - 11:03 AM Some 'Gypsy' Guitars have D shaped sound holes. |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Grab Date: 01 Mar 07 - 01:40 PM Scrump, there's a fair number of guitar makers who've tried just that. Of the big names, the easiest to find are probably Tacoma (with a comma-shaped soundhole in the top of the upper bout) and Ovation (the Adamas model with multiple soundholes on both sides of the upper bout). Never played that Ovation, but Tacomas are a lovely instrument. I saw (and played) them in the US, but they just don't seem to appear in the UK. I've seen (on the web) various smaller luthiers who are doing more experimental stuff. Their names escape me right now though. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: leeneia Date: 01 Mar 07 - 02:07 PM Thanks for fixing the link, Scoville. My computer won't make blue clickies, no matter how many times I follow the directions. This kind of thing explains the "F" in RTFM. I hope that my true story helps someone whose beloved instrument suffers minor damage. John in Kansas, your story might work if aluminum had grain lines. |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Mar 07 - 03:36 PM leenia - Grain lines aren't that important to the need for "crack stopping." Stop holes are quite frequently used in aircraft repair, in all materials, and in many cases the "end conditions" for any kind of slit, slot, rip, joint, binding, fastening, or any other feature that as a "sharp corner, - that's part of a new and "perfect" part must be very carefully analysed to avoid "stress concentration" and the possibility that a crack will start at the sharp feature and will propogate. "Stopping" a crack, or a potential crack, is most critical in any place where there's vibration. The stop doesn't help the "gross strength" or have any effect on what will happen if you drop another brick on the fiddle, but a "sharp corner" can grow into a crack, or a crack can grow by an infinitesimal bit with each vibration, and where there are lots of cylces of the vibration, eventially the corner turns into a crack and the crack turns into a major fracture. The feature of the fiddle f-hole that is there because of the grain is the "curl" at each end of the f, to turn the stress in a cross-grain direction before it gets to the "knob" at the end, which is there to act as the stop hole. John |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Tootler Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:50 PM Ah Jim Lad :-) You should have added a smiley and I might have realised. I passed very quickly over the other posts so missed the point there, but I am not always too quick on the uptake anyway especially as there are a large number of people out there who have no idea what a viol is. Anyway no one has answered my query, though the poster who said it was probably more down to tradition. |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Songster Bob Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:05 PM F-holes aren't "traditional" in fiddles -- THEY'RE NECESSARY. The bass bar (which runs under the bass foot of the bridge) and the sound post (which sits under the treble foot) are used to balance the sound (bass bar) and couple the top to the back (sound post). The tension on the top of an archtop instrument, such as the violin or mandolin is very high (note how "tipped back" the fingerboard is, and how much an angle there is across the bridge), and a top with a hole in the line between the tailpiece and the neck would either collapse or require such heavy bracing that there would be no sound. The same holds for the archtop guitar, though there have been "soundhole" archtops (the Howard Roberts models, for one). The difference in tone between these models and the f-hole archtops is considerable, and is a matter of personal choice. Similarly, an A-model mandolin, with a sound-hole, is different from an f-model (and F mandolins were not named as such because of the f-holes; it was just Gibson's numbering system -- L=guitar, H=mandocello RB=regular banjo, etc.). So the reason there aren't "a-model" fiddles is 'cause they'd sound like crap. Modern makers might manage to construct a decent-sounding one, especially if they could use computer modeling, but early experiments showed that the f-hole construction gave the best results, and they still do it that way. If that's "tradition," well, there's a reason for it. Bob |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Jim Lad Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:39 PM Tootler: Yes, I forgot to grin. You won't find me picking fights. Those who do, generally hang out in the B.S. threads and live with their mummies. Much too cerebral up here. I think Songster Bob's summation answers your question quite well. |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: GUEST,282RA Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:57 PM I have an acoustic archtop with "cat's eye" holes. The purpose of these guitars is to project sound outward 180 degrees from the soundboard. Just something Gibson came up with in the days before amps. When jazz and swing came along, these guitars were used to keep time, like a metronome. The guitarist fires smartly strummed chords in between the din of all the other instruments so that the other players can key in on it and stay in beat. But I use it for folky and bluesy things and it works fine. |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Mar 07 - 07:36 PM To answer in part "Tootler's Question." From the standpoint of the physics of acoustic instruments, the shape of the soundhole(s) should not affect the sound of the instrument. The only things that affect the sound are: 1. Volume of the air space enclosed in the box. 2. Total Effective Area of all the holes. A relatively minor effect on the "resonance" of the air box system may come from the rigidity (or lack thereof) of the box. The location of the holes may affect how the sound is projected in a certain direction, but the frequencies within the box, and that come out of the box, should not be affected. As described above (buried in long rants) the effective area may be quite different than the measured area, for shapes that are much different than round holes. If holes of different shapes are sized to produce the same effective opening in the sound box, the frequencies, and relative strengths of the different frequencies, should be "unaffected." The differences between actual areas and effective areas for the sound holes can be slightly frequency dependent since the edge effects of a long hole-periphery may depend slightly on the ratio of edge length to wavelength, or on the ratio of the short dimension of the hole to wavelength; but in most instruments the effect is fairly small (and extrememly difficult either to detect or to analyze mathematically). The effect might be more noticeable if sound holes more nearly approached the wavelengths of common notes; but even the largest holes are generally a small fraction of the wavelength for tone pitches of interest. The frequency dependence due to edge effects generally is not detected until the soundhole dimensions approach a half or quarter wavelength or less. Most variations in soundhole shape are because of necessities that arise from other "design decisions." The f-holes in a fiddle are the shape they are because that shape "fits" the structural requirements of the instrument, and suits the need for fine tuning of the Helmholtz resonance of the body (if that's a concern of the builder) - within the constraints of the surrounding structure. If another instrument doesn't impose the same limitations on where you can put the holes without making the instrument fall apart, then other "reasons" must be invoked to select or justify a different sound hole shape. There's never a shortage of "reasons" for twiddling with the details. Sometimes the twiddle works, and sometimes it doesn't; but the only way to "proof" a particular tweak or twiddle is in the final voice of the instrument. And before you can say that "sounds different" is because the sound hole is a different shape, you must also account for all the other differences, which invariably are numerous (and often subtle). John |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Songster Bob Date: 02 Mar 07 - 02:54 PM Speaking of resonance and the need for holes, you do realize that professional drums all have a small hole in the side, don't you? Especially drums with heads at each end. No hole = very little sound. If you stand in front of a drum kit in operation, you can feel the air move with each stroke. Resonance is our friend (even in the case of the drum). Bob |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: Dazbo Date: 07 Mar 07 - 05:45 AM Thanks for all the answers, very interesting |
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Subject: RE: F holes in violins/fiddles: Why? From: GUEST,Chelmite Date: 19 Jun 07 - 01:51 PM Because most fiddlers couldn't tell their s-holes from a hole in the ground.-) |
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