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Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain
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Subject: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: Goose Gander Date: 02 Dec 06 - 04:27 AM 1,400 Years Ago |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: Sandra in Sydney Date: 02 Dec 06 - 05:30 AM fascinating, but no pictures! I've had a quick look on the Museum of London website, but can't find anything. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: GUEST,thurg Date: 02 Dec 06 - 05:43 AM "human grave laid out in the traditional Christian manner - east to west." I wasn't aware of this tradition - does anyone know anything about it? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: Georgiansilver Date: 02 Dec 06 - 05:44 AM Interesting, particularly if any factual evidence ensues.....however, as with many 'discoveries' there is an element of theory and interpretation by the 'powers that be' and some will only believe what they want to believe...others may be misled into believing the same. As usual, time will tell....all will be revealed....in one way or another. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: mack/misophist Date: 02 Dec 06 - 07:18 AM Interesting but not particularly suprising. When possible, churches are laid out east to west. East points to Jerusalem as well as Mecca. It should come as no surprise that graves may be laid out similarly. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: DMcG Date: 02 Dec 06 - 08:31 AM Plus, of course, it is extremely difficult to infer anything confidently from one site. A single grave must be laid out in some direction after all. A new grave in close proximity to an existing grave will tend to be laid parallel to it, and so on. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: leeneia Date: 02 Dec 06 - 10:49 AM Never mind all that! :) Religious significance is all very well, but we're talking JEWELRY here. I wanna see the jewelry! Yesterday's paper had an article about the headless skeleton in the limestone sarcophagus. The article said it was a one-piece sarcophagus. I wonder how anybody made such a thing, and if it's rare. It sounds like a lot of work. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: Bee Date: 02 Dec 06 - 01:00 PM Not having seen pics, I'm just speculating here. Limestone is relatively easy to carve, and sculptors have been carving very complicated objects for centuries. As far as I can tell, this would just be a largish box. I've personally carved a small box out of solid wood with a couple of small tools and very little experience. Similar techniques would apply, just a bigger project with stone carver's tools. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: katlaughing Date: 02 Dec 06 - 01:57 PM There's a picture of the sarcophagus on this page. Another one Here. This One has a video link with different views of it. Fascinating stuff. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: Bee Date: 02 Dec 06 - 02:41 PM Thanks, kat. I'm a wannabe archaeologist, love these kinds of stories. The headlessness of the skeleton is interesting, but what with the various things people have used heads for (trophies, pikes, relics, etc.) it isn't that strange. As I thought, not that difficult a carving feat. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: GUEST,thurg Date: 02 Dec 06 - 03:25 PM "East points to Jerusalem as well as Mecca." From England? Hmmm ... Now does that mean that the head of the corpse is on the eastern end of the grave? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: Les from Hull Date: 02 Dec 06 - 03:41 PM Yes I think so, in the absence of anybody on Mudcat with the proper knowledge (Fibula Mattock where are you?). But you've got to recognise that GPS was in its early days in the sixth century. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: GUEST, Topsie Date: 02 Dec 06 - 04:48 PM |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: katlaughing Date: 02 Dec 06 - 04:53 PM You're welcome, Bee. Yes, where is Fibula?! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: GUEST, Topsie Date: 02 Dec 06 - 04:54 PM (I didn't go anywhere near the 'submit' button, honest.) The direction of burial was mentioned in a thread about Facing East to Mecca See the posts at 28 July 06 at 6.14 pm and 27 July 06 at 11.44 am, and the link to Whitby Abbey. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: GUEST,thurg Date: 02 Dec 06 - 05:34 PM Topsie - Thanks! Interesting. According to these, the head is at the west end. I noticed in another post (27 July 06 11:25), someone relates an anecdote having to do with the supposed convention of the head being at the east end. Until now, I haven't had a worry about the disposal of my own remains, but this is the sort of thing that could nag at me through all eternity ... |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: katlaughing Date: 02 Dec 06 - 05:40 PM With cremation it doesn't matter.:-) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: Sandra in Sydney Date: 02 Dec 06 - 09:43 PM kat - many thankyous for your links. I clicked on the BBC link & had a wonderful time following other archaeologial links. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: Little Robyn Date: 03 Dec 06 - 01:17 PM I can see from the photo why the body is headless - they made the box too short and had to cut the head off to make it fit! Robyn |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: Paul Burke Date: 04 Dec 06 - 03:28 AM There's just possibly a touch of circular reasoning- an east-west orientation is often used as a diagnostic of Christian burial, but it's better if it is one of a group of graves all with the same orientation. Thos burial groups without any consistent EW orientation are taken as pagan. But for a single burial, it's not so certain, as it could just be a random direction governed by the site perhaps. They didn't say that the jewellery had any religious motif, and the absence of grave goods is often another diagnostic of a Christian burial. As for it being easy to carve limestone, well that depends on the limestone. You wouldn't want to carve the stuff from Derbyshire. It just laughs at masonry drills. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: Mo the caller Date: 04 Dec 06 - 06:38 AM My speculation here. If when the 'dead rise' they pivot up on their heels they would be facing W if the head was at the E end. Now personally I don't care where you dump my carcass when I've finished with it, but some people do. I wonder how long ago something has to be buried before it's OK to dig it up. And what the difference is between an 'Archeologist' and the 'grave robbers' that they complain about when the site has already been got at. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: Paul Burke Date: 04 Dec 06 - 06:59 AM The archaeologist digs to get information. Anything found is carefully recorded so as to maximise information gained. The remains are studied carefully to extract information (diseases, injuries, DNA may be extracted to shine light on origins or kinship, isotope analysis can sometimes show someything about the individual's life). These days, even the soil is analysed if funds are available. Human remains are either conserved (if of special interest) or reburied, often with rites appropriate to the what has been discovered about the beliefs of the dead person. A grave robber digs to enrich him/herself. Only saleable artifacts are of interest, which may include parts of the body (like the skull) if these are in good condition. Nothing is recoreded, and virtually all information about the past which the grave contained is lost forever. This is why most people who are really interested in archaeology dislike the way sites (not only burials) are often damaged by ignorant and uncaring treasure huinters with metal detectors. They occasionally contribute by discovering new sites, but all too often unconsidered digging for objects can destroy the story that the site has to tell. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: leeneia Date: 04 Dec 06 - 10:24 AM I'm sure we all know that. I doubt if anyone here is a site-pillager. I'd still like to see the colors and lines of the jewelry. What did they consider beautiful back then? How did they fasten pieces together? I make jewelry myself and have a special interest. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: GUEST,JimI Date: 04 Dec 06 - 03:13 PM As to whether the burial is Christian or not the link referred to in the first post has the following quote; "The burial, in a stone sarcophagus, was also Christian - like virtually all the others - " I haven't seen the site but (as an ex-archaeologist) this says to me that almost all the burials must also have been orientated east-west and so I also would probably have said "Christian!" if I had found them. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: Doug Chadwick Date: 04 Dec 06 - 03:21 PM If when the 'dead rise' they pivot up on their heels they would be facing W if the head was at the E end. When I was taking a tour of one of the major English cathedrals (I can't remember which), I was told that the head was at the East end precisely because the dead would rise up facing West. Otherwise, they would find gazing on the glory of God too much to take. Bishops, on the other hand, were buried the opposite way round as they could cope. DC |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: Fliss Date: 04 Dec 06 - 06:05 PM There was already a christian community in the British Isles among the Roman Britains long before Augustine came to Canterbury. St Alban was the first martyr in the country. There were Christians in Wales. Patrick had taken Christianity to Ireland from Britain and it had come back to Iona with St Columba as the celtic version which was superseded by the Roman church at the Synod of Whitby.... I could go on, I studied Anglo Saxon Christianity at college in Canterbury for a 15k word essay in the late 1960s. When I heard of the find I thought it would be a lot earlier than the time of Bertha. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: GUEST,memyself Date: 04 Dec 06 - 06:10 PM "I also would probably have said "Christian!" if I had found them" - I probably would have said, "Holy s***!" |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: frogprince Date: 04 Dec 06 - 06:49 PM I think I'll ask to be cremated, except for my head. That way they can bury me with my head at one end of the grave, and my ash at the other. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Dec 06 - 08:49 PM "It is thought the skeleton's head was removed by workmen building a sewer during the Victorian period."(From here). As in: They're moving father's grave to build a sewer, They're shifting it regardless of expense. They're moving his remains, To put in nine inch drains, To irrigate some posh bloke's residence. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: Cluin Date: 04 Dec 06 - 10:21 PM Well, sure there were early Xtians in England. Didn't Joseph of Arimathea hare off to England with the Holy Grail shortly after the crucifixion? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: GUEST,memyself Date: 04 Dec 06 - 10:28 PM And did those feet in ancient times ... ? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: katlaughing Date: 04 Dec 06 - 11:48 PM Yer most welcome, Sandra.:-) leeneia, Paul was only answering a question. I, too, would like to know more about the jewellry! As to the head in the east, a lot of Native American tribes believe they should be buried facing east. Some of the traditionalists even build their homes so that the front door faces east. There are also other ancient civilisations which had similar beliefs about facing east. So, how is it archaeologists automatically say "Christian" when they find a burial like this one, besides location, lack of jewels or what have you? I mean, why is the east thing THE one they identify by? Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: Penny S. Date: 05 Dec 06 - 12:19 AM I think it's probably because of the overall experience of excavations in the British context, where groups of graves which are recognisable not Christian may have one orientation, and groups which can definitely be identified as Christian are E/W, which makes new discoveries of E/W graves likely to be Christian. I thought this was going to be an earlier find. In the Darent Valley, there were Christians worshipping in Lullingstone villa during the Roman occupation, who were presumably buried somewhere, and there is one enigmatic burial in an early Jutish cemetery of a man with no gravegoods except a glass bowl with a Chi-Rho which appears to be Christian. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: Cluin Date: 05 Dec 06 - 02:46 AM Also, I thought they buried criminals and the excommunicated in a north/south orientation. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Early Christian Site in Britain From: GUEST, Topsie Date: 05 Dec 06 - 05:21 AM That is what I was told regarding a grave in Brockley in Somerset, with a skull and crossbones on the headstone (see link at 02 Dec, 04.54 PM). |
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