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BS: The earth closet - the future?
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Subject: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: The Shambles Date: 21 Dec 06 - 09:44 AM Is the earth closet too good an idea to be buried? See Rev Henry Moule and the Earth Closet http://neal.oxborrow.net/Thomas_Hardy/HenryMoule.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: SINSULL Date: 21 Dec 06 - 09:56 AM Curmudgeon and BatGoddess have one of these. I am always mildly distressed when I cannot complete the process with an audible flush. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: Bert Date: 21 Dec 06 - 09:58 AM One problem with using human manure to grow vegetables is that your brassicas get club root. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Dec 06 - 02:03 PM "It's a shame that such an innovative device (for its time) should be sullied by an association with sh*t... That's a bit like saying it's a pity that a beautiful invention like the aeroplane is sullied by an association with flying. It sort of goes with the territory. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: Bert Date: 21 Dec 06 - 09:17 PM According to an old farmer in Hampshire. He told my Dad that was why we were getting club root. We lived miles away from a sewage system so we 'recycled' our waste. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Dec 06 - 09:22 PM You get great tomatoes around sewage farms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: JennieG Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:37 PM Much of Oz is in drought at present - so this seems like a good idea to me. Much more practical than wasting water! Cheers JennieG |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: Paul Burke Date: 22 Dec 06 - 05:51 AM I'd rather have an earth closet than a live closet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Dec 06 - 07:28 AM Back to topic. There's some fascinating stuff about earth closets in a book called Clean and Decent by Lawrence Wright For example: On Moule's simple basis, a Mr Garrett in 1898 erected and patented perhaps the most elaborate system ever devised for a private house. At 'Woodroyd', near the Bigsweir railway station on the G.W.R. in Gloucestershire, the indoor earth closets were arranged one above another. with a a large shaft behind them outside the wall, down which the output fell into a bin at ground level. Fresh earth was raised by means of a sack, pulley and rope up the same shaft...From the bin the used soil was put into a 'special barrow' and from this into the scavenger's cart. The cart too was 'special', being arranged to tip the contents into a 'special' railway truck for the removal into the country. At this point we lose sight of any further trans-shipments... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:20 AM But back to the subject. Here's a graphic showing how to build a "sawdust toilet". I found it on a link from a scary Civil Defence page about how to manage things when everything falls to pieces - Domestic Civil Defence - Sewage Disposal Of course virtually all cat owners have an earth closet for their pets, in the form of a litter tray. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Dec 06 - 12:32 PM Please remember that this is a thread about earth closets. It is not to be used for complaining about Mudcat editing policy, or for attacks on Shambles. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: Wesley S Date: 22 Dec 06 - 12:55 PM I'm all for the earth closet. As long as it can be built indoors where it's warm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: Ebbie Date: 22 Dec 06 - 03:08 PM Wesley, I once wrote a story that involved that idea. It was a survival story, set in the far north, with 'city slicker' types. Because the ground was frozen a normal pit wasn't possible so I had them build an 'outhouse' indoors at the end of a long hall. With the judicious application of powdered lime I would think that it would be a do-able thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: Bat Goddess Date: 22 Dec 06 - 06:03 PM You get great tomatoes, too, where there are dogs who raid the tomato patch. Our "outhouse" is in the house -- an otherwise a normal bathroom with tub, shower and sink, etc. All the rest of the plumbing is "normal" -- and ours is actually a cross between an earth closet and a true composter. We started out with "Soddy Potty" when Tom built the house (before my time). That was problematic and Tom built this as a "fix". We're saving our pennies for a newer composting unit -- like the biolet or envirolet. Our house is an owner-built post and beam situated for passive solar. Our primary heat is a woodstove with fans for circulation (although the house is somewhat open floorplan). The corners of the house stay cold, though (and the wall where the computer is) and the upstairs is usually too warm (for my taste, at least) -- need to get the socket at the head of the stairs wired so we can use the small fan there. Linn |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: Paul from Hull Date: 22 Dec 06 - 06:16 PM I'm not in a position to make use of any of the info provided here or in the links, nor am I ever likely to be, but I'm curious as to how far such processes make waste safe for use on crops destined for human consumption? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: GUEST, Ebbie Date: 22 Dec 06 - 07:52 PM Well, we know one thing - it doesn't make people sterile, Paul. Asia has used 'night soil' for centuries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: freda underhill Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:06 PM My brother in law built an earth closet at his home on the south coast. He got a pile driver to dig a huge hole into the earth below the closet. It was built outside the house with a window looking across the National Park - and was referred to as the Loo with the View! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:26 PM In Australia, a few different types of things seemed to have acquired the name 'Earth Closet'. The basic 'long drop' - as mentioned by Freda above, in which no 'dirt' is added, but often sawdust or lime is thrown on top. No attempt is made at 'recycling' other than digging a new hole when the old one is full, but with a deep enough hole, it seems to take forever to fill with moderate usage. Groups of these, known as 'latrines' (and usually with a collection of seats with lids and a light frame with hessian or similar privacy surrounds) are sometimes used at 'public camping events in the Aussie Bush' - they are usually much shallower and always filled in after the event, with lime added. The contents of 'porta potties' must NOT be added - they contain chemicals to stop natural decay, and this will 'kill' the natural processes. The 'outside tin in a commode in a small shed' - which was picked up once a week by 'the dunny cart' guys - originally a horse drawn cart, but eventually motorised. Sawdust was usually added on top. This was once very common in Australian towns and cities (in 1967 they were still in use in some suburbs of Brisbane when our family moved), but after the 1930's there was a deliberate push by all local councils Aussie wide to install flush water closets and sewage treatments plants. Houses were also then connected to distributed 'treated drinking water' mains, but this work proceeded much faster than the sewage works; prior to this, the only house water available was from 'rain water tanks', which after decades of bullying residents to remove, there is now a strong political push to install!. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:48 PM You've heard a lot of pratin' and prattlin' about this bein' the age of specialization. I'm a carpenter by trade. At one time I could of built a house, barn, church, or chicken coop. But I seen the need of a specialist in my line, so I studied her. I got her, she's mine. Gentlemen, you are face to face with the champion privybuilder of Sangamon County. That was the opening paragraph of Lem Putt's masterpiece, The Specialist. I posted it before in another thread, with a link, but the link seems to have gone to glory. So here is another link to it - text and illustrations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: Bert Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:36 PM Thanks for straightening out this thread Joe; I hope that the drifting abusers get the message and learn to be good in future. Good point about the powdered lime Ebbie. I wonder if THAT was what was causing the club root. Paul, your comment about safety is a legitimate concern. I have heard that certain plants, like melons, can transfer diseases like typhoid fever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: dick greenhaus Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:51 PM US troops stationed in Asia were coming down so severly with diseases transmitted by noghtsoil-fertilized vegetables that the Army set up good-sized hydropnic farms to avoid the problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: Ebbie Date: 22 Dec 06 - 11:19 PM I really had not been specifically aware - or had forgotten - that night soil is inherently dangerous. Wonder if within a family with its known and shared bacteria and pathogens its use would be acceptable? Here is an interesting website: Different Ways of Creating and Utilizing Safe Fertilizer from Night Soil Among other things it says: "The third way to deal with human excrement is to slowly compost it over an extended period of time. This is the way of most commercial composting toilets. Slow composting generally takes place at temperatures below that of the human body, which is 37°C or 98.6°F. This type of composting eliminates most disease organisms in a matter of months, and should eliminate all human pathogens eventually. Low temperature composting creates a useful soil additive that is at least safe for ornamental gardens, horticultural, or orchard use. "Thermophilic composting is the fourth way to deal with human excrement. This type of composting involves the cultivation of heat-loving (thermophilic) microorganisms in the composting process. Thermophilic microorganisms, such as bacteria and fungi, can create an environment in the compost which destroys disease organisms that can exist in humanure, converting humanure into a friendly, pleasant-smelling, humus safe for food gardens. Thermophilically composted humanure is entirely different from night soil. Perhaps it is better stated by the experts in the field: "From a survey of the literature of night soil treatment, it can be clearly concluded that the only fail-safe night soil method which will assure effective and essentially total pathogen inactivation, including the most resistant helminths [intestinal worms] such as Ascaris [roundworm] eggs and all other bacterial and viral pathogens, is heat treatment to a temperature of 55° to 60°C for several hours." 3 The experts are specifically referring to the heat of the compost pile." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: John MacKenzie Date: 23 Dec 06 - 05:18 AM I have heard somewhere that night soil in Asia is less harmful due to their predominantly vegetarian diet, and it is the amount of meat eaten in our modern western diet which renders our 'output' a haven for nasty bacteria/germs etc. Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: Paul from Hull Date: 23 Dec 06 - 05:28 AM Yes, I had wondered about whether it was less harmful to those that had produced the waste in the 1st instance. Giok, that sounds logical. What was in my mind when I asked the question was the fact that all vegetables had to be boiled if they had been grown in 'fertilised' soil....though as far as I'm aware, that was because it was put on the fields 'untreated'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: Gurney Date: 24 Dec 06 - 03:52 AM I'm sure I've posted this before, and here it is again..... The is a Scandinavian system for indoor lavvies. The house must be built on an incline, and there is a sloping-floored 'cellar' into which the deposits go, both human and kitchen waste. The build-up slides gradually down the floor, and by the time it reaches the trap-door at the lower end there's nothing left but compost, and a considerably reduced quantity of that. Waste kitchen water and grey water have to have a seperate disposal system. It goes without saying that the toilet is vented above the roof and that the vents are substantial, so that there is a down-draught at the toilet seat and kitchen trapdoor. I should think this system would only work under the house in these cold countries, as freezing would knacker it outside. Permafrost would be a problem. I read about it many years ago, and the idea has remained with me, for reasons I don't want to discuss! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The earth closet - the future? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Dec 06 - 04:28 PM A fine collection of pictures of these ecologically forward-looking devices. |
