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Bob Dylan at the King and Queen
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Subject: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: mustradclub Date: 19 Oct 06 - 10:25 AM Just a note for you folk music historians. The present venue of the Musical Traditions Club in London.The King and Queen Foley Street London W1 was in fact the same venue where Martin Carthy ran a club back in the 60's and was I believe the pub where he met Dylan in the frozen winter of 62. Peta and I recently came across a photo of Dylan singing in the club room and presented it to the landlord it now holds pride of place over the bar. The gig at which Dylan appeared was recently listed as one of the 100 best London gigs ever. Strangely when Keith Summers and I found the pub in 1990 we had no idea of its history. The present landlord also was unaware of the pubs past until we pointed it out to him. Naturally he thought we were having him on so it was great to be able to give him photographic proof. Ken Hall |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 19 Oct 06 - 12:44 PM Ken, I think that you will find that there was a club preceding Martin Carthy's at your present venue. Simon Delmonte aka Curly Simon I believe ran a club there in the early sixties as well as a late night Saturday club at the Student Prince restaurant in Soho. Curly then went out to New Zealand and started the Poles Apart Folk Club I believe in Auckland. Are there any other "long timers" that can recall this? |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: mustradclub Date: 19 Oct 06 - 12:51 PM Thanks for the info much appreciated. Ever since I found out about the pubs history I have been meaning to do some research and write a history of the venue. However being both busy and lazy. Dont know If I will ever get round to it. If you or indeed anyone else can supply me with Info I would be very grateful. Send me a private message via mudcat or email me at ascloseascanbe@aol.com Thanks once more Ken Hall |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: GUEST,Nicholas Waller Date: 19 Oct 06 - 02:01 PM Was your landlord aware that there's a theory this gig caused his pub to appear in Don McLean's "American Pie"? When the Jester sang for the King and Queen In a coat he borrowed from James Dean Maybe it's nonsense but I saw this online at http://www.levitt.co.uk/v3.html (and the article mentions other theories involving JFK & Jackie, and Martin Luther King and Joan Baez): "The Jester is Bob Dylan as will become clearer later in the song. In 1962 Dylan went to England to star in a BBC programme as a rebel of some sort. During his visit, he sang in a few clubs, these were his first gigs in the UK. On the 23rd December of that year he performed at "The King & Queen" pub in 1 Foley Street, London. So Dylan literally "Sang for the King & Queen"." |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: The Borchester Echo Date: 19 Oct 06 - 02:32 PM I wasn't there at the King & Queen on that well-documented (Martin Carthy often talks about it) night when Bob Dylan was in the audience. It wasn't a gig, he just did a floor spot. Martin recognised him, having read about him in Sing magazine and was aware that he was over to do Nightmare On Castle Street Re: Curly and the Student Prince. Yes, was there. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: The Borchester Echo Date: 19 Oct 06 - 02:35 PM Oops, that came out a bit strange. Cut'n'paste again: I wasn't there at the King & Queen on that well-documented (Martin Carthy often talks about it) night when Bob Dylan was in the audience. It wasn't a gig, he just did a floor spot. Martin recognised him, having read about him in Sing magazine and was aware that he was over to do Nightmare On Castle Street, the BBC play of which no recordings survive. Martin asked him if he wanted to perform, to which Bob replied 'ask me later'. After about 20 minutes, Bob indicated that he would. A few days later, he turned up in the Troubadour where I used to work on the door. After several such visits, Martin Winsor told me not to let that 'American Bob' in again without paying, a directive which I ignored. I'm told the same scenario unfolded at the Roundhouse in Covent Garden, the rationale being that it was absolutely fine for old jazz musicians to partake of North African dried herbs, but not young, wet-behind-ears guitarists. Re: Curly and the Student Prince. Yes, was there. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 19 Oct 06 - 05:46 PM I guess you mean the Roundhouse at the corner of Wardour Street, home to Cyril Davies and Alexis Korner's Blues and Barrelhouse club on Thursday nights. Re the Troubadour herbs, I believe Dylan mentions in one of his books that he got some good stuff from someone that was a regular there and he appears in one of the photographs in the same book. So the guy in question told me anyway. Regarding freeloaders of any type Martin was absolutely right, too many of those buggers around. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: Jim McLean Date: 20 Oct 06 - 05:15 AM Countess richard, The correct sequence of events was that I was there that night as my mate Nigel Denver was doing a spot, as were the Thames Side Four, and my future wife, Alison Chapman McLean the photographer, was on the door. I didn't recognise Dylan but when he came in with his guitar I asked him if he wanted to sing but he declined and sat near the back. I mentioned to Martin that an American kid with a guitar had come come in and perhaps he should ask him to sing which he did. Dylan and I had a chat in the interval, downstairs in the toilet where I offered to share my half bottle (whisky ) with him (and Nigel) but he declined. We talked about a few things and he asked me if I was Hamish Henderson (Nigel had been singing some of my songs). I was hovering at the door that night as I was 'courting' and preferred my future wife's company to the singing so I witnessed Bob coming in. I know the passing of time can cloud the memory but both Nigel and Alison can vouch for my version. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: The Borchester Echo Date: 20 Oct 06 - 07:00 AM Well, Jim, alI I said was that Martin C called Mr Zimmerman up from the floor, having spoken to him earlier. Martin says he did recognise Bob as he'd just been on the cover of Sing. I have no knowledge of whatever you were up to in the loo as I wasn't even at the K&Q that night. I wonder if it was that very night that Bob came back to Martin's place next to Belsize Park tube and helped him set fire to the piano? I lived only a few doors away but missed that too. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: GUEST,AS Date: 20 Oct 06 - 07:31 AM These are amazing stories. Really great stuff! I work almost across the road from that pub and have never been in. I'll aim to head across! |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: The Borchester Echo Date: 20 Oct 06 - 07:39 AM Hey, Guest AS, have a pint of Adnams for me! Actually, tonight is a MusTrad club night so you could go up and see the very room and meet the thread's author, |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: Jim McLean Date: 20 Oct 06 - 08:01 AM Hi countess richard, that may have been the night but I dont think so as I lived in the same house as Martin and his then wife Dorothy and I can't recall anything like that happening. As you know in those days you could take beer up the stairs but we were all skint and we kept our half bottles for drinking in the loo! You'll remember those little pink coffee mugs from the Troubadour? well I still have one. We used to order a coffe then slip into the small back room behind the stage and imbibe! Diz Disley always used a coke bottle. Cheers. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: GUEST,AS Date: 20 Oct 06 - 08:40 AM I didn't know they had music there! Unfortunately I'm catching a train up to Scotland, but I'll definitely make it along in the future. Is it every Friday? |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: The Borchester Echo Date: 20 Oct 06 - 08:59 AM Nah, only once a month unfortunately. But they do have special weekends and workshops occasionally: Musical Traditions |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: Fred McCormick Date: 20 Oct 06 - 11:02 AM I ain't taking sides, but for what it's worth, Carthy's version of events (interviewed in the BBC4 programme about Dylan's first visit to the UK) supports what Countess Richard said. BTW., the Musical Traditions Club (no connection with Musical Traditions Magazine, except that they were both started by Keith Summers)is a truly excellent venue for traditional songs and music. If you're inot the same, it's definitely worth a visit. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: Jim McLean Date: 20 Oct 06 - 01:12 PM Fred, I think it's what Martin didn't say that was interesting. If you read countess richard's second posting it doesn't contradict what I said. My wife took pictures that night which we still have and she also took the only picture of Martin accompanying Dylan (in the Troubadour) which Martin claimed (on BBC4) not to have known about. A few years after the picture was taken we got married in London in 1966 and my wife used Martin and Dorothy's new address as her London address. Nigel Denver, myself, Martin and Dorothy Carthy, Pete Stanley and his wife all lived in the same house in Belsize Park in the early 60s. I was never a fan of Dylan's although I spoke to him on many occasions so there is no reason whatsoever that I would invent some kind of story about meeting him. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: Micca Date: 20 Oct 06 - 01:41 PM AS, there is ,I understand , a regular Thursday night session upstairs at the K&Q from last night! |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: mustradclub Date: 22 Oct 06 - 06:03 AM Thanks for all the correspondence everyone. Martin Carthy and Pete Stanley will be our guests at the King and Queen on the 12th January. Ken Hall |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: GUEST,MikeofNorthumbria sans cookie Date: 23 Oct 06 - 06:09 AM If memory serves, Dylan (with Joan Baez in tow) also dropped into the K & Q during his 1965 British tour. When they arrived, Alex Cambpbell, who was the featured guest that evening, launched into an impromptu parody of "Subterranean Homesick Blues", at which Dylan grinned hugely. My recollections of the rest of that evening are veiled in alcoholic fumes, but I don't remember His Bobship or Queen Jane singing at all - so far as I can recall, they just sat at the back, drinking and grinning, while the show went on and the rest of us tried to restrain ourselves from gawping at these exotic visitors. Wassail! |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: Scrump Date: 23 Oct 06 - 06:28 AM Fascinating reminiscences! I've drunk (and probably been drunk) in that pub many times (I used to work for a company that had offices nearby and it was one of our regular watering holes), without realising it was where BD heard MC, as referred to by BD in the sleeve notes of the Freewheelin' album. Must make a return visit someday, if only to see the photo (though of course I might as well have a pint while I'm there) ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: GUEST,AS Date: 23 Oct 06 - 06:39 AM I think I'll go or a pint there after work today! I'm hoping to make it to some of the club nights as well... It good to see a folk club so central. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: GUEST,Lyn Date: 27 Oct 06 - 10:55 AM I'm with Jim McClean on this one, having heard the story from Nigel Denver. I'm seeing Nigel later so if he wants to add anything - watch this space! |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: The Borchester Echo Date: 27 Oct 06 - 11:04 AM Nobody's disputing what Jim McLean said, certainly not me as I wasn't even there. I simply repeated what Martin Carthy (who presumably was not in the K&Q gents either) said happened from his point of view in the upstairs room. Is Nigel Denver still known as The Poisonous Dwarf? I remember him on a campsite somewhere telling us to stop playing at around 8 p.m. because he'd put his kids to bed. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: Scrump Date: 27 Oct 06 - 11:56 AM The King & Queen is the one on the corner of Cleveland Street, where Foley Street joins it, right? Just wanted to be sure I'm thinking of the right pub. It's quite a few years since I last went there. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: GUEST Date: 27 Oct 06 - 11:58 AM It is. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: Scrump Date: 27 Oct 06 - 12:17 PM Thanks GUEST. Glad my memory isn't faulty for once. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: The Borchester Echo Date: 27 Oct 06 - 12:21 PM The link in my post above describes exactly where the K&Q is, plus a map. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: Les in Chorlton Date: 27 Oct 06 - 12:29 PM Blue Plaque? |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: GUEST Date: 30 Oct 06 - 06:27 AM Dear Countess Obviously not a fan then! I wonder what Nigel knew you as? Unfortunately he can't place you. Lyn |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: GUEST,AS Date: 30 Oct 06 - 11:25 AM I did go for a pint last week and saw the picture! |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: Jim McLean Date: 30 Oct 06 - 04:30 PM Hi countess richard, I don't think gratutious insults are necessary on this thread but in Nigel's favour he brought up his twin sons on his own and was obvoisly very protective of them. I don't know many folk singers who recorded so many LPs and was in the forefront of the Scottish revival and still managed to bring up his family single handed. On he other hand I've had many a sing song and drunken revelry with Nigel, on many continents, lasting days at a time. He's a small man with a large voice and his politics sometimes upset Middle England. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: GUEST,Guest Date: 07 Nov 06 - 06:21 AM Hi there i was just browsing through on my father's name and came upon this site. I am the daughter of Curly Del'Monte mentioned by hootannie on the 19th of Oct. Was this place formally known as The Troubador? or was that somewhere else. Dad often spoke of meeting Bob Dylan and trying to get him to do a charity gig at some point. Does anyone remember him? He did go to NZ, where i still am, and start the Poles Apart Folf Club, so called cause his partner Martain Winsdor, who was my godfather, was Poles Apart fom him. The club started april 1967 and ran under dad, then Frank winter, and then our family again until November 1987. My other godparent mas Maggie Stanley, who i think was the wife of Pete back then. I have lost contact with her now, Would love to hear from anyone who knew Dad or Redd Sullivanand the others associated with him. Mum was also around towards the end as they married Oct 66. Dad was a great stroyteller, and it would be nice to hear other people's versions. Shalom |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: Kevin Sheils Date: 07 Nov 06 - 06:29 AM I remember Curly well from the Troubador and the Cellar at Cecil Sharp House, in particular IIRC a joke routine he had about a fairground performer who used to dive from a height onto a brick. I believe Redd Sullivan continued that story after Curly had left. The K&Q is not the Troub which is still going I believe, but both were venues associated with Dylan in those Days. Did Curly use a different surname when performing I have at the back of my mind another name? |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: The Borchester Echo Date: 07 Nov 06 - 06:46 AM Jim: Wasn't me who invented Mr Denver's nickname and I've no idea if it was meant to be a gratuitous insult or not. Though HE was rather insulting about us doing what people do at festivals. Curly's daughter: If you'd care to join up as a Mudcat member and PM me I could put you in touch with various people. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: Jim McLean Date: 07 Nov 06 - 11:07 AM I remember Curly, a very funny man. He once asked me to write him a gag with the ending '...and that's why Bill Bailey won't come home'. He went to New Zealand before I could write the story and I often wonder if he ever got it done. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: Kevin Sheils Date: 07 Nov 06 - 11:37 AM Curly Goss that's the name that was stuck in the back of my mind, definitely the same chap as Curly Del'Monte by all other references I've found to him |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: Kevin Sheils Date: 07 Nov 06 - 11:45 AM Googling "Curly Goss" gives a fascinating link to a page translated from the original Japanese by Google tranlation service; which I think refers to the famous Dylan visit although from the translation it is difficult to tell. Here is a sample of the paragraph mentioning Curly Goss The night of the London stay last day, pole and [atei] the [ian] Campbell group (Ian Campbell Group) directed the foot to flamingo club of [uoda] town in seeing. [kari] [gosu] of the promoter (Curly Goss) the air was rubbed in break. The group did not arrive yet. Although the multitude audience has entered, it put out and being able to prepare the thing it was in a state where it is not. As for [gosu] although the pole it is sat down with the guitar, you became aware, in order to perform, you asked. The social worker of the yeast side of London, [jiyudeisu] peep (Judith Piepe) it was the late there. She became the friend whose pole and [atei] are intimate afterwards, became great assistance for the carrier of the pole. It has been said her, the boy whom you did "from this New York and do not recognize was produced to drag in stage." The actually place, truth you cannot call this speech under any condition. Because the pole was far with namelessness. He was professional Singer which has the fan which is enthusiastic to club. The rest is just as fascinating! I've had electronics manuals like that. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: Kevin Sheils Date: 07 Nov 06 - 11:48 AM Bad form to follow up one's own post but Reading it again I think it's about Paul Simon (pole) Still fascinating though! |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 08 Nov 06 - 05:58 AM To Curly's daughter; Maggie is now back in New Zealand as is her son. I knew Curly but not very well, he used to come by the Ballads and Blues Club when it was at the Black Horse Pub in Rathbone Place just off Oxford Street and was always ready with a story or two. The B & B was on Saturday nights and later the late Jill Cook started a Monday night club there too. I believe Pete Stanley came out to NZ to play at the Poles Apart Folk Club and then Malcolm Price followed soon after. Malcolm always referred to it as the Legs Apart Folk Club, can't think why. Malcolm knew Curly well and along with Redd Sullivan and numerous others was a regular at the Ballads and Blues. Malcolm now lives in Norway, Pete is still in London and seems to be playing regularly and I believe teaching banjo. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: GUEST,Guest,: Shalom Del'Monte Date: 10 Nov 06 - 05:34 PM Thanks so much everyone who answered. I will join mudcat and try to find out some more. yes Dad did go by the name Curly Goss. He had a son by that name whom my sisters and I are still trying to trace. I come from Dad's third marriage to Stacey Clayton. He was a very funny man, and Jim I will check with Mum about Won't Bill Baily come home, it rings a bell, but whether that was because he told the story about getting a joke written, or because he did get a joke written, I'm not sure, he told a lot of stories. Dad passed away in Aug 1999 in Australia and finding people who knew him is a great way to remember him. thanks a lot. |
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan at the King and Queen From: Shalomss Date: 12 Nov 06 - 12:03 AM In regards to your post about the translation page, Dad often mentioned that he knew Paul Simon during his let's go to England thing before he made it in the USA. He said he organised a charity concert in which he got Paul simon to play, i think they had a falling out over pay. But who knows, stories grow in the retelling. Anyway the point is that the page could refer to Paul Simon if it is in the same context as Curly Goss. |
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