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bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older
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Subject: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: GUEST Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:55 AM This statment was made on another website: "The bodhran is as traditional Irish as the didgeridoo is trad. Australian Aboriginal." True or false ? |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: 8_Pints Date: 23 Aug 06 - 09:11 AM I had heard that the film 'Titanic' depicted a scene in steerage where some Irish emmigrants were playing the bodhran but in fact this was historically innacurate as it had not yet been developed. There are still regions in Ireland, such as Claire where it is still not part of the tradition. Unless, that is, anyone can prove me wrong! Bob vG |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Bagpuss Date: 23 Aug 06 - 09:12 AM The Didgeridoo seems to be a much older instrument. Drums similar to the bodhrán have been around the world for some time, but the bodhran as used in Irish traditional music seems to a pretty recent phenomenon. From wikipedia: "The bodhrán is a frame drum similar to instruments distributed widely across northern Africa from the Middle East, and has cognates in Arab music and musical traditions of the Mediterranean region. (See Music of North Africa, Music of Greece etc.) Some claim that its name is derived from the Irish word bodhar, meaning deaf, and that this indicates that it has been known on the island long enough to have acquired the name. However, there are no known references to this particular name for a drum prior to the 17th century, and the frame drum itself was observed in Irish traditional music only in the 1960s, during which it was popularised by bands such as The Chieftains and The Dubliners. Previously tambourines were used, and others have suggested this is the origin of the word (from the abbreviation "'bourine"). Peter Kennedy observed a similar instrument in Dorset and Wiltshire in the 1950s, where it was known as the "riddle drum", and suggests that this is the likely origin of the bodhrán." And "There are no reliable sources stating the didgeridoo's exact age, though it is commonly claimed to be the world's oldest wind instrument. Archaeological studies of rock art in northern Australia suggests that the Aboriginal people of the Kakadu region of the Northern Territory have been using the didgeridoo for about 1500 years, based on the dating of paintings on cave walls and shelters from this period." Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 23 Aug 06 - 09:22 AM The Irish had brass didgeridoos. |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: BusyBee Paul Date: 23 Aug 06 - 09:44 AM "....riddle drum....." - a small circular sieve used in agriculture is called a riddle and it would be about the same size as the bodhran so that does seem to fit. |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Bert Date: 23 Aug 06 - 09:47 AM Well I think that we should combine the two instruments and use them in the "session rudeness" thread. |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Dave'sWife Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:06 AM bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is more annoying Thoughts? FYI - we seem to have more didgeridoos in los Angeles than Bodhrans but then we have also seem to have more of anything that is not Irish than is. (a frequent complaint of mine) |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: mack/misophist Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:07 AM For what it's worth, the bodhran is central to Innuit music. Different name, bigger, tuned with a moistened finger. Was it the Irish who really discovered Greenland? |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: GUEST Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:34 AM I saw that "Wikipedia" entry. Anybody here ever seen a bodhran played by the "Dubliners" ? |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Paul Burke Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:35 AM "Why is it that when I see someone come into a session with a didgeridoo, the words 'arse' and 'shove' come to mind?" - ancient saying from the Beech, Chorlton. |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Mr Red Date: 23 Aug 06 - 02:05 PM I found a book in this thread that pretty-well answers this but you may not like the answers. Read the thread. There is no written documentary evidence that uses the word bodhran before the 1950's. If anyone has the evidence to contradict this we all would like to know. Peter Kennedy (who died recently) did find referrence to a Dorset riddle drum dating back 170 or more years. the riddle (pun intended) is answered in the name - it started from the riddle or from tools used for winnowing. |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: InOBU Date: 23 Aug 06 - 02:37 PM Ah yes, but which tastes better? |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Aug 06 - 05:17 PM If you drop a bodhran and a dideridoo of a cliff which hits the ground first? Who cares... :D (tG) |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: GUEST,Rowan Date: 23 Aug 06 - 06:55 PM While I appreciate (and have some sympathy for) the sentiments expressed above I thought the Guest who started the query hadn't fully thought through the connection between the thread title, their proposition and their question, namely "The bodhran is as traditional Irish as the didgeridoo is trad. Australian Aboriginal." True or false ? The bodgran now has association with Irish music that many people think of as "traditional" (to the regret of many, but that's the way of things) and the didge has acquired similar association, to such an extent that the sound of one in a soundtrack somewhere is supposed to invoke some connection to the whole gamut of things Australian whether Aboriginal or not. Didgeridoos were originally limited to Arnhem Land, the Kimberley and places in between. There is no evidence of them anywhere else in Australia until colonists, anthropologists and other Balandas took them from those limited areas. Timber artefacts have a limited potential to survive in archaeological contexts in those areas so it's unlikely we'll get evidence older than the current ethnographic material and information. Didgeridoos certainly were not ethnographically recorded south of the frost free line although more of them now reside there than in the Top End and their presence in sound tracks from everywhere has exactly the same "traditional" association as bodhrans now do with "Irish" music. So, which of these modern associations is older? Does the answer provide any information that is meaningful? Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Paul from Hull Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:18 PM Hmmm...I dunno...but I've never seen a fibreglass Bodhran, so.... *G* |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:46 PM "Didgeridoos were originally limited to Arnhem Land, the Kimberley and places in between" I have been told that some Aussie tribes only ever used boomerangs as clap sticks in music ceremonies - "What? they come back if you throw them?" |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:26 PM And Drew "Didgeridrew: Reid who plays with 'Brother' here in the U.S. makes and sells PVC didges. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Bob Bolton Date: 24 Aug 06 - 12:04 AM G'day Foolestroupe, You, of course, are making the modern mistake of thinking that "returning" boomerangs are the only (... or typical ) boomerang. Most boomerangs were hunting types - they went straight to the target and knocked it down. There are early accounts in the Western Districts of NSW (and, probably, in the early settlement East Coast areas) of these being used against the white invaders. They were an effective thrown projectile, with a lot of energy stored in the spinning action - but not much use against a Brown Bess musket. I gather that the returning boomerang did have a hunting use ... when used to imitate a passing bird of prey - thus forcing ducks and other waterfowl to seek cover among reedbeds on a river - where the Aboriginal hunters were concealed! The 'returning feature meant they could give the impression of a raptor flying over and circling back ... and then they returned to ground near enough for the thrower to retrieve them. Regards, Bob |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:19 AM Luckily the aborigonies arrived in Aus' first. Had the Irish been there first then they would have made an instrument you could not throw away. |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Bert Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:31 AM I dunno, I'd like to throw a Bodhran or two. |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Metchosin Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:42 AM Then there's this 30,000 year old flute made from a mammoth's bone. Now that's old. |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Bert Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:59 AM But somewhat inconclusive. I think that anyone could make a rudimetary flute from ANY 32 fragments of bone. |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: JennyO Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:17 AM I Don't Like My Boomerang (Les Barker) I don't like my boomerang. I know what you're going to say: If you hate your boomerang so much Why don't you throw it away? That's all very well in theory. It may seem that simple to you. Why don't you throw your boomerang away? 'Cos I threw it away yesterday too. There are times when life is not easy. There are days when the future looks black. There are days when you throw your boomerang away. There are days when your boomerang comes back. I believe in predestination; My boomerang's future is clear. On the days that I throw my boomerang away It's predestination's back here. There are times it gets me down; Perhaps I shouldn't let it. What I can't understand is this: How did I ever get it? Sometimes, when in the front garden I throw it, then hurry in doors. Within half an hour, there's a ring on the bell And a little boy says: "Is this yours?" Once I got really angry. I taped some dynamite to it, And without really thinking things through, I lit the fuse and I threw it. With hindsight, this was an error. We learn lessons from life; I was taught it Is better to think before throwing your boomerang. Never think after you've caught it. I've resorted to desperate measures; Sometimes when I throw the stick, I try to move house before it comes back But you can't get a mortgage that quick. I had a Jack Russell terrier once; I used to call him Jack. I used to throw my boomerang for him. The stick used to bring the dog back. I've seen the sticker in car windows; It gets me right here, like a knife: A boomerang's not just for Christmas; A boomerang is for life. |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: GUEST,Rowan Date: 24 Aug 06 - 07:26 PM "Spot On", Jenny! Bob's on the money about returning boomerangs, although he omitted the Aboriginal use of nets in such activities. Most of Australia's Aboriginal language groups used clapping sticks of some kind or other and, because of the loss of linguistic detail we now have only a few words from some groups to describe the 'sticks'. Curved boomerangs give a distinctive double percussion and were almost universally used rhythmically. Woomeras (familiar to Americans as "atl-atl"s) were also used and, where didgeridoos were used there was a concentration on particualr types of wood used for clapping sticks. Ethnographically, didgeridoos appear not to have been decorated with all the acrylic dot paintings used currently. There's a bit of uncertainty about whether the termites' hollowing out of the trunk has left vagaries of internal shape to the tube that influences timbre but musicians like to argue over such things. A didge is really just a long tube and you use your own internal air column to influence the air column in the tube, so it's no magical thing that you can make a didge out of PVC pipe or black agricultural poly pipe, just so long as you make a good mouthpiece. Clay or beeswax are 'traditional'. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Bob Bolton Date: 25 Aug 06 - 09:04 AM G'day Rowan, "... omitted the Aboriginal use of nets in such activities ..." Err ... true - I was trying to contain my usual prolixity and just concentrate on what the boomerang did, not detail a training course for the next time a bunch of lost folkies (or any other wandering Balandas) needed to capture lunch just outside the boundaries of Kakadu National Park. Regards, Bob |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:24 AM I suspect that skin drums of one sort or another have been round longwer - a drum is a pretty basic development from banging things together to make a noise, and chimpanzees do that. A didgeridoo is a pretty unlikely and sophisticated way to make music. Drums of various sorts, including the one ended version played as a bodhran turn up all over the world, but didgeridoos only seem to have been invented once, in Australia - and human beings were roving around the Old World long long before anyone got to Australia. But so far as the bodhran played the way it currently is in Irish music, I don't think there is any evidence of that happening before the 1960s, aside from the local tradition in Wexford of wrapping a bit of a skin round a farm implement and using it as part of the Hunting the Wren custom. Snare drumas appears to have been the normal drum before, when a drum was used in Irish music, apart from the lambeg in the North. So according to how you define it, the bodhran is as old as humanity and maybe a bit oldeer, or it's a child of the sixties. And a very welcome innovation too, when played with discretion and tact, which it can be. Sometimes it's a pain, but that goes for any musical instrument in some people's hands. |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Wolfgang Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:45 AM Anybody here ever seen a bodhran played by the "Dubliners" ? Photos of Dubliners in Vienna 2005 (scroll down 2/3 for relevant photo) Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: birdbrain vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:14 AM "didgeridoos only seem to have been invented once, in Australia" The Irish had Brass ones I tell you... the Celts actually... and I'm not making this up! An Aussie aboriginal went over there a few years ago, and he was on the ABC radio explaining all about them! I dunno, nobody takes any notice of me... |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Bob Bolton Date: 27 Aug 06 - 09:13 AM G'day Foolestroupe, About 10 years back I did some demostrations of making simple ideophones (small lagerphones, "Barcoo dog" rattlers, &c) ath the Australian Museum, Sydney in Christmas school holidays. Various national displays and demonstrations occurred - including an irish couple with modern replica of the (apparently) open-ended, curved, brass tubular instruments excavated in Ireland. No mouthpieces (of the brass-instrument style) have been found and these tubes had opening too large for modern mouthpieces. The Irish have theorised that they may hae been played like the didgeridoo ... and this couple certainly made their replica instrument do a good job of didging. Without finding more inclusive records, none of this is definite ... but it is certainly possible. Regards, Bob |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Aug 06 - 07:33 PM Clearly it never really caught on... Actually I've sometimes thought a digeridoo could be used quite effectively with Irish music, to provide a drone. Not with the showing-off barks and yelps, I mean, just a steady background drone. |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Effsee Date: 27 Aug 06 - 09:43 PM Do you mean one of these? http://www.carnyx.musicscotland.com/carnyx/carnyx.htm |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 27 Aug 06 - 11:08 PM See! :-) |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Bob Bolton Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:07 AM G'day Effsee, "Do you mean one of these? ...carnyx ..." No! When I saw the instruments I mentioned above, my first thought was the carnyx, but the Irish couple said the player's end of their bronze tubular instruments was quite different from a carnyx ... and totally unsuitable for the carnyx's mouthpiece. Certainly, the Irish are claiming their instruments to have been played in the same fashion as the didgeridoo. They have demonstrated that this is possible. (But, so is playing two lengths of Hoover vacuum-cleaner tube ... after removing all traces of severaly years' dust!) It would also be possible to fashion an intermediate holder - of tight-grained wood, for instance, which fitted into the bronze instruments ... and accepted something very like the mouthpiece of a modern brass instrument. Regards, Bob |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:37 AM The kid I mentioned up above, Drew Reid, makes a slide didge, like a trombone for playing in various keys. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: thehiker Date: 28 Aug 06 - 07:08 AM A well known Irish Jazz musician is reputed to have said the best way to play a bodhrán was with an open pen knife I dont fully agree with him but there are times...... |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: GUEST Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:11 AM Bohdran in the Dubliners - yeah, once, in 2005 - out of over 40 years. |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: GUEST Date: 28 Aug 06 - 07:28 PM my boomerang wont come back my boomerang wont come back I,m black in the eyes and blue in the face my boomerang wont come back |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Aug 06 - 07:41 PM Oh my Gawd! I've hit the Flying Doctor! |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: GUEST Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:08 PM On the mark, Foolestroupe, except Guest could have written, My boomerang won't come back my boomerang won't come back I've thrown the thing all over the place, waved it until I was black in the face I'm a big disgrace to the Aboriginal race my boomerang won't come back |
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Subject: RE: bodhran vs. didgeridoo - which is older From: harpmolly Date: 28 Aug 06 - 10:06 PM Heh heh heh...yes, I'm eeeeevil! M |
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