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BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ?
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Subject: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: GUEST,Beachcomber Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:36 PM My family lore has always had a story about a relative (my uncle) who reputedly "ran away" to join the British Army.However, he died (with his boots on)when I was too young to realise what it was all about. Now I wonder how I can find out what really happened and when, in his short life? Is there any kind of web site where I could access his record? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: The Admiral Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:50 PM Assuming that your Uncle died in France then your best bet is the Commonwealth War Graves Commision. They have built a wonderful database allowing anybody to find a grave or a memorial were the missing are remembered. Try Commonwealth War Graves Commision and let us know how you get on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: Divis Sweeney Date: 13 Jul 06 - 07:15 PM This will help you beachcomber, www.cwgc.org |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: katlaughing Date: 13 Jul 06 - 08:35 PM If you don't have any luck there, let me know. I am about to re-up my subscription to ancestry.com which has a lot of databases and would be happy to look it up for you. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: Sorcha Date: 13 Jul 06 - 11:14 PM And it would help if we knew his name and birthdate/place |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: The Walrus Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:25 AM If you're looking to find if he served in the British Forces in the Great War, the National Archives (formaerly Public Records Office) has the medal cards and pension records on file in Kew - Many were burned by bombing in 1940, but there is an ongoing project to get what data they can from these files on line. It's worth checking their web site (sorry, I don't have the address, but it should be easy to Google). W |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:20 AM If he was killed, the Commonwealth Wargraves commission mentioned above will have a record of him, where his grave if he has one, or where his name is commemorated if he has no known grave. Good luck, keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:18 PM "Ran away" would appear to imply that he was under age, or from some neutral country or something of that sort, so he might have used a false name, which was quite common, which would complicate things somewhat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: Bunnahabhain Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:28 PM Or, if he Turns out to be a Johhnie, or a Willie, then he's bound to have run away to escape his pregnant true love... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: GUEST,beachcomber Date: 14 Jul 06 - 07:09 PM I have to say that I am delighted by the extent of the response to my posting. I have had others (probably equally fatuous) that have not elicited as much. Yes he was a "Johnnie" as you suspected, Bunahabhain, but , as far as I've ever heard , there was no "true love" much less a pregnant one. Yes I always heard that he was "under age" and also that his father (my Grandad) tried to get him repatriated from France. He may have succeeded because my uncle ended up working in Dublin Castle , at some stage . Probably during the war of independence. He was Irish, born in 1899, in Co.Waterford, but was living in Ballyraggett, Co.Kilkenny when he "joined up". He joined a regiment named the South Irish Horse and I still have a few photos of him on horseback, in uniform, looking about 12 yrs old, though he must have been 16 at least. I have his number in that regiment as well as a number that he was given when being re-assigned to a regiment of hussars. However I do not immediately have these to hand. If someone , like Sorcha or Kat can help , I will find these numbers. My Uncle died in 1948 in Dublin, his name was John "Jack" Keating. His next-of -kin would have been Richard P> Keating (his father - my Grandfather) Many thanks again to those who showed any interest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: katlaughing Date: 14 Jul 06 - 07:31 PM I'll see what I can find at ancestry.com, next week. That ought to be enough info to at least find something on there.:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: Sorcha Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:13 AM And I don't have a paid subscription...see what kat can find first. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: GUEST,beachcomber Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:44 PM Thanks again Kat and Sorcha, It is very decent of you to offer to help out. I have to confess that I am not totally au fait with these consarned new fangled machines. Posting to the Mud Cat Forum is almost as far as I have mastered to date. In any case, I hope you can turn up some info for me whenever. Uncle Jack's South Irish Horse recruitment number was 1549. When he transferred to a Company of Hussars his number was 73166. Good Luck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:21 PM Try Googling South Irish Horse and see if they have a regimental website or museum. You should get a bit more info from the 'Horses' mouth' as it were. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: Les from Hull Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:31 PM There's a J Keating mentioned as serving here on the South Irish Horse homepage |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: Divis Sweeney Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:32 PM I have a friend in Navan who is an expert on the South Irish Horse, If I can help, just ask. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: The Walrus Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:20 PM Hi Beachcomber, I just ran a quick check at the National Archives Medal card site http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/medals.asp This confirms the existance of a form WO 372 medal card for 1549, Keating, John of the South Irish Horse. The free information is as follows; (I put in the SIH data and the Hussar data came out as confirmation. Description Medal card of Keating, John Corps Regiment No Rank South Irish Horse 1549 Private Corps of Hussars 75166 Private Date 1914-1920 Catalogue reference WO 372/11 Dept Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies Series War Office: Service Medal and Award Rolls Index, First World War Piece Jobling J - Langley P Image contains 1 medal card of many for this collection Number of image files: 1 Image Reference Format and Version Part Number Size (KB) No. of Pages Price (£) 106225 / 16246 PDF 1.2 1 225 1 3.50 They'll charge you for the card, the web page carries instructions on how to interpret it. Any use? W |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: GUEST,beachcomber Date: 17 Jul 06 - 05:00 PM Apologies to those who posted to this thread, I find difficulty in keeping up with it. Thanks Divis for your kind offer of help, may I take you up on it. If your friend in Navan (I was actually up there last month, by co-incidence, at a juvenile Soccer Tournament, with my son) can give any information on the action recoprd of the Regiment (SIH) or concerning the transfer to the Hussars, When?, why?. Walrus too was exceptionally helpful in finding my uncle's army recruitment numbers etc. Many, many thanks Walrus, I will try to purchase that Card from the National Archives. If your friend is still interested I can e-mail a few photos of "Jack" in uniform and on horseback with rifle and sabre, looking very warlike indeed. He was born in 1899,in Co.Waterford, as I've already mentioned. What I do not know is, did he actually see any combat in WW1, I don't suppose that particular info can still be accessed. Any news Kat? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: The Walrus Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:40 PM From: http://www.1914-1918.net/CAVALRY/sirishhorse.htm South Irish Horse A cavalry regiment of the Special Reserve August 1914 : in Dublin. Part of 3rd Cavalry Brigade. On mobilisation in August 1914, the regiment was split up. The squadrons served mainly attached to Divisions until 1916, and then attached to a Corps. After September 1917, the regiment served as infantry, and three new squadrons were formed. A Squadron joined 21st Division in 1915. On 11 May 1916 it left and went to form part of XV Corps Cavalry Regiment. On 16 January 1917 it became XVIII Corps Cavalry Regiment. B Squadron moved to France as GHQ Troops on 17 August 1914, one of the very few non-regular units to form part of the original BEF. Joined 2nd Division on 4 May 1915. On 15 May 1916 it left and went to form part of I Corps Cavalry Regiment (and was redesignated S Squadron). C Squadron joined 16th Division in 1915. On 17 May 1916 it left and went to form part of I Corps Cavalry Regiment. E Squadron moved to France and joined 39th Division on 17 March 1916. On 17 May 1916 it left and went to form part of I Corps Cavalry Regiment. F Squadron moved to France on 18 May 1917, and replaced a squadron of the Hertfordshire Yeomanry in XVIII Corps Cavalry Regiment. S Squadron joined 32nd Division in 1915. On 14 May 1916 it left and went to form part of XV Corps Cavalry Regiment. It was then redesignated B Squadron. On 21 November 1916 it moved to IX Corps Cavalry Regiment, and in January 1917 it became XVIII Corps Cavalry Regiment. On 17 June 1916, C, E and S Squadrons, now together again in I Corps Cavalry Regiment, became known as 1st South Irish Horse. It left I Corps in August 1917, and merged with 2nd South Irish Horse (see below). On 17 June 1916, C, E and S Squadrons, now together again in I Corps Cavalry Regiment, became known as 1st South Irish Horse. It left I Corps in August 1917, and merged with 2nd South Irish Horse (see below). 2nd South Irish Horse was formed from A and B Squadrons, together with B Squadron of the Hertfordshire Yeomanry, and had been XVIII Corps Cavalry Regiment. Amalgamated with 1st South Irish Horse at the end of August 1917. Converted into infantry and became the 7th (Service) Battalion (South Irish Horse), the Royal Irish Regiment. If he gave his true age on enlistment, he may have spent his time in the depot or on home service, however, it is entirely possible that he served with his squadron. By the same token, it is possible that his age was the cause of his transfer to the Hussars (transfer of the under 19s to 'Home Service' units when the parent formation is posted abroad). Any use? W |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: katlaughing Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:44 PM Sorry, beachcomber, I was sidetracked by the weekend the youngest dau. turning 29! More apologies as I will not be able to renew my subscription at ancestry until the end of the month, the 28th to be exact. I'll be able to do some GOOD searching, then, I believe. More as I am able to find it. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: GUEST,beachcomber Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:48 PM All that info so quickly. Great stuff Walrus and your comments re soldiers of a certain age group being transferred all makes a lot of sense when read against the "family lore" that I've heard all my youth. Thanks very much for giving your valuable time to my "cause". Kat, I look forward to hearing from you again in this matter. Will you refresh the thread if you get any more data? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: katlaughing Date: 18 Jul 06 - 10:25 PM Sure, I will, beachcomber. I actually was able to re-up my membership, today. Have oly had time for a quick look and regret to say I haven't seen much likely stuff, BUT there's a lot to look through on other sites as well, so may be able to find something, yet. Ive got this thread on "trace" so I can easily find it again on my personal page. Thanks for sharing your family history. I love this kidn of stuff. It is so interesting! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: GUEST,`beachcomber Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:51 PM Kat, as far as my family history is concerned , you ain't heard the half of it, but I doubt that many 'catters would have that kind of interest in other peoples "skeletons". I will willingly share all the info on "uncle Jack" that I have, with you, should you wish. He had quite a life in which his British Army service was only an early chapter. Obviously, he was very young when he joined up. Cheers. Tommy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:22 AM Sometimes family lore is not all it's cracked up to be. We had a family story that there was one of us on the Titanic. This story came from several different branches of the family, as far away as Australia. There was indeed a man with the same family name registered as part of the crew, but he was from a different county and not (as far as we can tell) actually related. What they never told me was that 3 members of the same family were all killed in one day in WWI. People pick the strangest things to boast about.... LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: GUEST,beachcomber Date: 20 Jul 06 - 03:19 PM Right on Liz, families obviously tend to focus on the "spectacular" (good or bad) bits of "history" to the neglect of the more mundane events. One of our stories concerns a relative who - DIDN'T - book passage on the Titanic due to a superstition about the sailing date! Yes, I dare say that many, many families have genuine WW1 stories that may still be capable of validation. Walrus, thanks again for your valuable help, unfortunately I am unable to pinpoint to which (if any) of those categories (squadrons) my Uncle belonged. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: The Walrus Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:36 AM Beachcomber, I hope this may be of use, there is a site http://www.southirishhorse.com/ set up by a decendant which may be of use, it's full of bits about the SIH and its predecessor. It also contains a list of men entitled to the 1914 Star and the 1914-15 Star, unfortunately I could see no J Keating, so it looks like he was not serving in 'France and Flanders' before November 1915 - This does not mean he wasn't enlisted at the time, he could be either on a home posting (especially if it was officially known that he was under 19) or under training during this period. The site mentioned may be of help. Good Hunting. W |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: GUEST,beachcomber Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:30 PM Walrus Yes I had found that site already, since hearing from you previously. Unfortunately , as you also found, not much further information is recorded. There is a John Keating shown as recruited in 1914 however and I will try to follow this up. Having his enlistment no. and date I do now know that he was in that regiment,the SIH. However I do not know where he served. It does sound very likely that he never actually got to France and this would tie in , more realistically, with the family tale that he was "brought back from france by the intercession of the local clergyman" In any case I am determined to press on in my attempt to document the full story of my uncle's WW1 involvement. It is only a small part of his story. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:51 AM Maybe the local clergyman 'dobbed him in' by telling the O/C his real age ~ probably at the behest of his mother. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: GUEST,beachcomber Date: 22 Jul 06 - 11:00 AM Yes Liz, of course what we can never fully understand in these more enlightened times in which we live, is the intensity of feelings aroused by the various strands of Propaganda employed , both by recruiters and those Nationalists opposed to fighting for the British Empire, no matter what cause. It must have been a very disturbed, though vital, age in which Jack and his contemporaries lived. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Did he fight in France in 1914 ? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:20 PM No propaganda intended... just a mother not wanting her baby boy out in the trenches. LTS |
