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the blues scale and the bluegrass scale
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Subject: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: The Sandman Date: 12 Jul 06 - 09:36 AM I have found this scale, quite useful as a basic form of improvisation the A blues scale is A Cnatural D Dsharp E G natural.When played against an A MAJOR chord. It is apparantly also sometimes called the bluegrass scale, when played against a c major chord..In a twelve bar blues the pattern is repeated for the sub dominant in this particular case d major using D as your starting note for the pattern, and then again for the dominant starting on E and using a patternof E G nat A ASHARP B AND D natural.I was denied the oppurtunity to discuss this fully on another forum so would appreciate any informed comment. |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Jul 06 - 10:00 AM All I can tell you is that when I bought my fiddling husband a blues-fiddle book & practice CD-- it sounded just like bluegrass played more slowly! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: leeneia Date: 12 Jul 06 - 12:04 PM I had to see what this sounded like, so I opened up Noteworthy and composed a tune. I see what you mean about it sounding like the blues. I think it works better against an Am chord than an A chord, however. The C chord didn't sound too good, I'm afraid. Thanks for posting. I enjoy unusual scales. |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: The Sandman Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:46 AM It works against an a modal chord best A E. The C chord when used is actually the pentatonic major, with flattened third. C is root E is third note, G is 5 ,A is six, D Is Second OR NINE , Even more common form of improvisation, found in light rock, trad folk, country, if you dont like the flattened third [that which gives it the bluesy flavour], in this case d sharp. dont use it. and stick to basically the pentatonic major . I have tried it and like the Blues scale of A against a c major chord, but its all a matter of taste. |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: *daylia* Date: 13 Jul 06 - 07:50 AM My students learn this as a "blues scale". I encourage them to memorize the pattern (ie in half-steps or frets, it's 3-2-1-1-3-2) so they can transpose it to any key. They love it! -- so simple and versatile. Sounds fine with an extra half-step ie A C C# D D# E G (or 3 1 1 1 1 3 2). And now the scale works with both the A major and A minor chords too, because the C# is the major third - give it a go and see what you think! The C natural in the original scale produces a harsh dissonance against the C# in the major chord. So, playing the C# as well resolves that dissonance in a satisfying way for the listener. And btw, just to be technical, I'd call that flattened third in the C blues scale an Eb, not a D# -- not that it makes any difference in sound of course, but simply because in the scale of C, E is the third note, and D is the 2nd. So if you are raising the second note, it's called a D#. If you are flattening the third, it's an Eb. |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: The Sandman Date: 13 Jul 06 - 10:14 AM YEAH your right of course it sounds the same in Equal temperament, I was just being lazy, I have seen your scale described as the mixo blues scale. I agree its an improvement, The more notes youve got to busk around the better, and it is fun.Ialso didnt want to introduce too much too soon. |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: *daylia* Date: 13 Jul 06 - 10:43 AM Does it make a difference in equal temperament, then? |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: *daylia* Date: 13 Jul 06 - 10:46 AM Sheesh, I meant is there a difference between a D# and an Eb if you are not using equal temperament? |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: The Sandman Date: 13 Jul 06 - 12:22 PM As i understand it in mean temperament, it is different, but since the days of BACH, Equal temperament has been used by everybody in the western world apart from purists playing music from the era pre Bach, I have always used Equal temperament, so my information is only hearsay. |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: s&r Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:26 PM The enharmonic diesis? Stu |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: GUEST,Jack Campin Date: 13 Jul 06 - 07:05 PM Bach probably never used equal temperament. He did use meantone, which makes E flat higher than D sharp (the spacing is about a third of a tone). Quantz's book on the flute describes flutes of his time as having separate E flat and D sharp keys at the bottom. One variant of meantone is very close to 19-note-to-the-octave equal temperament. Someone made tenor recorders with extra keys to play in that scale a few years ago. I'd like one if I knew where to get one - the project that created them has been dissolved. I once met a hammered dulcimer player in Glasgow who uses meantone temperament when playing without a guitarist in the group (guitarists can't do meantone). That was for normal Irish and Scottish folk repertoire. Nyckelharpa players also use temperaments that give pure thirds, it makes a big difference to the resonance of the sympathetic strings. There is one fiddle tuning in old-time music where this must come up - ADAC#. You'd probably want the C# to be a pure major third above the higher A, i.e quite a bit flat of equally tempered. |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 14 Jul 06 - 12:37 AM THANK YOU Captain Birdseye !!!
While it may have been stated before...by others in year's past.
Your explanation is clear and short...and makes sense to by fuddled head.
PLEASE stay for at least the summer...you have much to offer this forum.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: Anglo Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:43 AM Jack, I don't categorically disagree with you, but perhaps The Well-Tempered Clavier might have been written for an equal-tempered keyboard, as that tuning was certainly being discussed as a "good" tuning by the 1720s when the piece was written, and Bach was certainly aware of it. Meantone would not have worked at all for that particular opus. As an aside, Paul Groff (now in Florida) has researched the original tunings of Jeffries anglo concertinas, and has confirmed that a number of the accidentals were tuned differently as enharmonics, (i.e. a C# was tuned differently from a Db, etc.), though I don't know which chords were used to determine exactly how this was done. But he now will tune your instrument this way, if that's what you want! Capt. Birdseye on an English concertina will stay with equal temperament I'm sure. |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: The Sandman Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:51 AM Yes I will,as I will on my guitar, mandolin and tenor banjo. I do appreciate being able to discuss this amicably,this seems a more friendly forumt han some. |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: *daylia* Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:22 AM Anglo, Capt Birdseye -- thanks for the thoughts re equal temperament. I always wondered about that -- don't think I've ever heard or played an instrument in 'mean temperament. And even though this is a divergence from that great little blues scale posted above (which is more than worthy of a thread of it's own, sorry bout that), I'm wondering - do digital guitar tuners use "equal temperament" then? I learned to tune by ear as a kid taking violin lessons. Never owned a tuner for guitar till I got one for Xmas last year. I haven't used it much, except in noisy rooms -- fiddlin around with the thing seems to take me even longer than tuning by ear. And I've noticed that I often have to make a couple tiny 'adjustments' after using the tuner, even when all six strings get the green light. And I've wondered if that's because the tuner is not in equal temperament, so in any key except C (where there's no #'s or b's) it will sound a little 'off'?? Could be because I need more practice with the tuner, though .... |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: GUEST,Jack Campin Date: 14 Jul 06 - 09:33 AM All guitar tuners and most chromatic tuners use equal temperament. There are a few expensive chromatic tuners that give you other options. The reason your guitar sounds off away from C might be because the fretting hasn't properly allowed for changes in tension when strings are stopped. I know some people who use capos all the time and never tune their guitar with the strings open. |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: Mark Clark Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:17 AM *daylia*, The problem with many tuners is that they are only accurate within some published margin of error. If you read the sheet that comes with one, the manufacturer usually includes the accuracy with words like "accurate within 3 cents" or "+ or - .5 cents." As I recall, the popular Intellitouch tuners that clip onto the headstock of a guitar are accurate to within 3 cents. It may be 2 cents but this means that your E string could be 2 or 3 cents high and still register as right in tune. At the same time, your B string could be 2 or 3 cents low and still register as right in tune. A difference of 4 to 6 cents between those strings will sound dreadful to most listeners. There is a new line of PacRim tuners sold under various brands including Meisel and Intelli that claims accuracy of + or - 0.5 cents. This tuner also has a simulated needle display instead of lights or arrows. The wonders of technology notwithstanding, the best and quickest way to tune an instrument is to learn to tune by ear as *daylia* describes. It's the ear that must be pleased, not some physicist or engineer. Electronic tuners are best used to accurately tune just one string of your instrument then tune the instrument to that by ear. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: M.Ted Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:25 PM The best way to tune a guitar, by "ear" or any other way, is to tune it so that all of the A's are in tune with each other-- All of the other notes will fall into place, and every chord, closed position or open, will sound "true"-- The reason that a C chord often sounds off tends to be that, when tuned in the "usual" way, the pitch of the B string is off, which means that the C note, fretted on the B string is out of tune with the C on the A string-- Octaves out of tune are the worst clinkers you can get (the G chord will sound out of tune a bit when the B is off, as well). Fifths, on the other hand, can stand a lot of bending--Thirds are even more rubbery--there are a few different sized thirds in the harmonic overtone series, so there is really no right one-- |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: Don Firth Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:52 PM Just a note or two on perfect tuning and even temperament: Until Bach's time, musical instruments were tuned to the scales discovered by Pythagoras 2000 years before when he started experimenting with harmonics on a string under tension. These scales were in so-called "perfect tuning." The problem was that instruments could only be played in the keys in which they were tuned, and if you tried to play in a key that was not closely related (say, the instrument was perfect-tuned to a C and you tried to play in E), the instrument would sound out of tune, which, in that key, it would be. The further away you got on the Circle of Fifths from the key the instrument was tuned in, the further out certain notes would be. It's cumulative. What Bach did was to very slightly retune his instrument, in this case, the clavier (essentially, a harpsichord). He tweaked the tuning minutely so that the distance between half-steps was even all the way. True, it was a compromise tuning, and it meant that a note or two in each scale would be a tiny hair off—but still so close that it would take a very acute ear to hear the difference and even then, most people would not even notice it. Then, as a demonstration of the advantages of this system of tuning, Bach wrote his preludes and fugues for "Well-Tempered Clavier," showing that one could play in all keys without having to laboriously retune the instrument—and it sounded just fine. Not only was this a mechanical breakthrough in musical instruments opening up a wide range for future composers and musicians, it was musically brilliant as well. If you want to hear these, there are MIDI files for the whole shebang HERE This work had far-reaching effects. Among other things, Beethoven could not have written the symphonies, string quartets, and other works that he did had it not been for Bach showing the way by introducing even temperament and making it possible for Beethoven and future composers and musicians to modulate freely to and from keys that were not closely related to each other. I have a pretty good ear, and frankly, I can't hear much difference between perfect tuning and even temperament. And most long-time musicians that I know, including professional classical musicians and early music buffs can't either. I am deeply suspicious of those who say they can, and insist on making a big deal of it. Those who claim they can hear the difference remind me of the fairy tale about the princess and the pea. I can hear a slight wobble between a couple of notes if you sound them long enough, but if a quarter note lasts for much less than a second (and that's a fairly slow tempo), the discrepancy isn't there long enough for the wobble to manifest itself. Among other things, pianos and other fixed pitch instruments—including the placement of guitar frets—are tuned to or geared for even temperament. For a guitarist, imagine having to have to retune for different keys. And how would you go about adjusting the position of the frets to accommodate the new tuning? And using a capo? Forget it! Messy, eh? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: Tootler Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:16 PM Some useful stuff on temperament here. It suggests that the "Well Tempered Clavier" was written not for equal temperament but for a temperament devised by someone called Werkmeister. Werkmeister's temperaments were not equal, but unlike meantone, the compromises involved permitted playing in all keys. It is thought that the notion of different keys having a different character came from such temperaments as, unlike equal temperament, the intervals between successive notes, and especially of the thirds and fifths were not the same in all keys. I remember some years ago attending a talk on tuning and the speaker had a spinet tuned to quarter comma meantone, a common temperament certainly in the Baroque. Early in her talk she demonstrated the effect of the temperament on different keys by playing a G major chord followed by an Ab major chord. The Gmaj sounded fine. In contrast Ab major sounded horrible - a clashing discord. It was a graphic illustration why meantone only permitted playing in a limited range of keys. |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: s&r Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:23 PM With electronic tuners, the frequencies will all be up or down by the same error if there is an error. One note flat and one sharp won't happen Stu |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: GUEST,Jack Campin Date: 14 Jul 06 - 09:00 PM Don Firth's ideas on the history of equal temperament were the orthodoxy fifty years ago and have long since been abandoned by experts. Nobody in the early music world now believes Bach made significant use of it. There is also pretty good agreement that we don't know what he *did* have in mind for the Well-Tempered Clavier - could have been one of of Werckmeister's tunings, could have been something slightly different. It was certainly *not* routine in Beethoven's time (he was one of the best writers ever for the natural horn, which can't get anywhere near it). Some of the flute fingering charts on my CD-ROM are even later and still have differently pitched fingerings for A flat and G sharp. Whether you can hear different tunings depends on the kind of music. Recorder consort music is at the extreme - very pure tones played rather slowly, so beating is utterly obvious. Barbershop quartet singing is not far behind. The sound is immediately identifiable to just about anybody. Cajun accordions are usually tuned in the factory to meantone, and Scottish clarsach and mediaeval harp players often tune to Pythagorean intonation if they're playing solo. Empirical measurement shows that whatever classical string quartet players *think* they're doing, their actual intonation scheme is mostly Pythagorean. Pianos certainly can be tuned in non-equal temperaments, and for historically informed performance (e.g. of things like Haydn sonatas) always will be. Someone who knows what they're doing can retune a harpsichord in meantone with astonishing speed and no more equipment than one tuning fork. The tuning procedures described in 18th century books really do work. |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: Don Firth Date: 14 Jul 06 - 10:38 PM Jack, could you refer me to some material on this? What I wrote comes from class notes at the University of Washington School of Music in the late 1950s and classes at the Cornish School of the Arts in the early 1960s. If I'm behind the times, I'd like to rectify that. Thanks. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:36 PM For either blues or bluegrass (either one) scale is the same.---But first you have to join the union! ;-) Art |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 Jul 06 - 04:00 AM Speaking of "scale" in the sense of union rate, is anyone here truly conversant with the meaning and legal effect of the A F of M (film muisc) agreement? |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: Tootler Date: 15 Jul 06 - 04:37 AM Don, Have a look at the link I gave earlier to the Dolmetsch website. Brian Blood, who wrote it is a recorder maker and knows his stuff. Also there is an extensive list of references at the bottom of the page. I reckon that should bring you up to date. In our recorder group, the Musical Director will often spend a bit of time tuning the final chord in a piece we are playing. She does this by getting those playing tonic and fifth to sound and once those are OK she brings in the thirds and gets the players to adjust the pitch of the third slightly - lowering pitch a little for a major chord and raising pitch for a minor chord - to give a clear sounding chord. This, I suspect is bringing the chord as close to just intonation as is possible. Is this what string quartet players do instictively? If so is it really Pythagorean intonation which has pure fifths and fourths but considers the third a dischord? |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 Jul 06 - 04:57 AM The comparative table of pitch is interesting (and I think certainly proves that there is no such thing as "perfect pitch" in absolute terms), but I would be a little wary of Dr Blood's views if addressing the ability of others to hear pitch. He is himself a concert class recorder player. However, when my late wife and I went to Dolmetsch to buy her a new recorder we fell in love with the sound of (and came away with) a Silkwood medieaval pitch descant recorder and there were two interesting features of it. One stopped note was slightly off (but could be "blown up" in play), but Dr Blood, considering that we were folk musicians, told us that for our purposes the recorder could be considered as a "B" recorder rather than a "C" recorder - and was shocked and amazed to find that we as farouche folk musicians could clearly hear that the "C" of the recorder (at A=415) was not B of A=440. To use it as a "B" recorder (which Jacqui used to do, it made life a lot easier than playing A flat minor on a C descant) necessitated not fully putting the first joint home. The thickness of a thumbnail was about the right gap - but then the next octave up got interesting. For some reason it was also necessary to keep the lower joint extra extra tight and I got quite accomplished at binding and re-corking that joint. |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:10 AM Reading further into Blood's most interesting article, you will see that we were hearing the difference between 415, and 415.3 Hz! |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: *daylia* Date: 15 Jul 06 - 08:08 AM Wow Don, Jack, Tootler et al, I'm going to print out all your excellent information re tuning and equal temperament, and study the links posted too. For my student's sake, as well as myself. That should take me at least a day or so -- thanks so very much!! |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: Tootler Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:05 AM Richard I reckon like everything else some people are better than others at hearing differences in pitch. About three years ago I was at an early music summer school and after a talk on temperament, there was an opportunity to "play around" with some of the kit the speaker used for demonstration purposes - in particular electronic tone generators. The School musical director was able to distinguish pitches 1 Hz different at 440 Hz - and with tones of different timbre. I think he was the only one who could. Most others could manage 2 - 3 Hz. It's not uncommon to have to pull out the head joint of a recorder to ensure that two are in tune. Now, what I would like is a descant recorder in Bb so I can play with Northumbrian pipers without transposing on the fly. However, I do not think I could justify the price for the amount of use such an instrument would get as it would almost certainly have to be a special make :-) |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: *daylia* Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:04 AM Tootler, in a minor chord, the third is only 3 semitones (or half-steps) apart ie A - C. That's called a minor 3rd (or -3). When played together with the perfect fifth it produces the sound of a minor chord ie A-C-E. In a major chord, the third is one semitone larger ie A - C#. That's called a major 3rd (+3). PLay it together with the perfect fifth and you hear the distinctively different sound of the major chord ie A-C#-E. So, the only difference between major and minor chords is the size of the third; 3 semitones for the minor, and 4 for the major. So in other words, the third is "lowered" in a minor chord and "raised" in a major, not the other way around. It's the same in any key ie C-Eb-G is a C minor chord, and C-E-G is the major. Is this what string quartet players do instictively? If so is it really Pythagorean intonation which has pure fifths and fourths but considers the third a dischord? String quartet players are most often playing from a written score, with the key signature (ie any sharps or flats necessary to produce the major or minor key desired) clearly indicated at the beginning of each line of music. All 24 major and minor keys have their own unique key signature -- so producing the correct 'size' of third - or any other note/interval in the piece - is not instinctive, but learned. I don't think thirds are discords though. They sound pleasant enough, don't demand "resolution" of any kind. They're just highly mutable! :-) Now, a +7th (C-B) or a diminished 5th (C-F#)? Those are discords! (Not meaning to diss anyone, just my personal taste). |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: *daylia* Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:21 AM Oops, a diminished 5th is C-Gb, not C-F#. Uses the same keys/frets and sounds exactly the same (in equal temperament, but the fifth note of the C scale is G. And F is the 4th. THerefore, C-F# is called an augmented (or "raised") 4th, and C-Gb is the diminished (or "lowered") 5th. Caught Capt Birdseye on it -- better catch myself too! :-) |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:53 AM Cap'n I think you might want to turn those A#'s and D#'s into Bb's and Eb's. Flatted thirds. Frank |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:55 AM Wait. D# is Eb (flatted fifth) my error |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:55 AM A# is Bb, also flatted fifth Frank |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: Don Firth Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:33 PM Thanks a million, Tootler! I've saved the material to print out. That's gonna take a little study! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: GUEST,Jack Campin Date: 15 Jul 06 - 03:30 PM There is a B flat recorder, the Kung Folklora. I've tried one, it was crap. What I'd like is an A flat recorder - that would be ideal for playing tunes in two or three flats with a two-octave range from B flat (which is quite a lot of Scottish tunes from around 1800, Marshall wrote oodles of them). They do exist as A=460 renaissance G altos, or else in baroque design to special order. Either way, far too expensive. |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: Tootler Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:19 PM Thanks for the info Jack. Strange the Kung Folklora should be so poor as many of their other instruments are very good. I have Kung Baroque descant and Treble recorders and am very pleased with them. They are on the soft side, but speak well throughout the range, have good tone and make excellent consort instruments, their soft tone allowing them to blend into the group. I know a number of people who have Kung basses and are very pleased with them. Your Ab recorder would also suit a lot of James Hill's tunes played in the original key. The Northumbrians often transpose them to G to suit the pipes. Daylia, I think you have missed the point I was trying to make. The adjustments I was talking about were not semitones but very small adjustments of a few cents - a matter of adjusting breath pressure to bring the third into tune with the tonic and fifth in such a way as to eliminate the beats. This involves playing a major third fractionally flatter than the "natural" tuning of the instrument and a minor third fractionally sharper. I was surmising that players in string quartets do the equivalent making small adjustments with the fingers of the left hand to bring the chord fully into tune. BTW, In the case of the recorder group, We are also working from parts with the key signature written in. |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: *daylia* Date: 15 Jul 06 - 08:27 PM That's interesting, Tootler. It's been a very long time since I've played in a string quartet, but I did finish Grade 8 Conservatory on viola as a kid, and played in orchestras and smaller ensembles such as quartets for many years. And I don't recall ever having to alter the pitch of a third for any reason. Or any other interval, for that matter. The only similarity I recall to what you describe with wind instruments, is that string players use vibrato - a technique of quickly moving the left wrist back and forth while holding the fingertip firmly against the fingerboard, so that the tone "vibrates" very slightly around the true pitch (sharper/flatter). It's used to create a fuller, richer sound though, not to improve intonation. |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:53 PM I haaaave seen (whoops, beer) listed both A recorders and A medieval (ie nearly A flat) recorders as variants of sopraninos in good makes from the Early Music Shop. If my wife had not died they were next on the shopping list. |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: GUEST Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:35 PM the interval of the flatted fifth (eg A-Eb) was/is known in Bebop as "the devil's interval" ...it's got a lot of dissonance and so works well in the blues scale around which to improvise ... |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: GUEST,Jack Campin Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:34 PM The only recorders at A flat(ish) pitch I can see on the EMS site are A=466 G altos - e.g. a Netsch baroque in boxwood after Gahn, 889.43 pounds inc. VAT. Ouch! |
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Subject: RE: the blues scale and the bluegrass scale From: Richard Bridge Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:05 PM I can't find them now either - it was some years ago, but I'm sure they were somewhere between sopranino and garklein in size |
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