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Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan?
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Subject: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: Marion Date: 21 Jun 06 - 10:32 AM Hi gang. I believe I've seen it mentioned here a few times that Woody Guthrie disciplined himself to write two songs a week during a period of his life - confirm/deny? Maybe it was somebody different. Anyway, I've got a ten week vacation and thought I might give this plan a try. Have any other writers here tried to emulate Woody's plan? If so, how did it work for you? Were you able to keep it up? Did you get some good songs out of it, or were they all crappy from being written too fast? After the experiment, was there any lasting change in your productivity? Thanks, Marion |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 21 Jun 06 - 10:44 AM I don't think that was Woody. Woody wrote constantly and two songs a week would have been an off week for him. |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: Vixen Date: 21 Jun 06 - 01:21 PM Jack Hardy advocates writing one a week on the premise that if you write 52 a year, you're bound to get a good one. I've tried that, but my muse is not that regular...I've had months on end when I've come up with a dozen snippets a week, then months on end with nothing. I use those months to fiddle with the snippets and see if something interesting emerges. Jack Hardy's website Thread on Care and Feeding of Muses Hope that helps, V |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: GUEST Date: 21 Jun 06 - 01:22 PM I have no idea what a muse is or why I would need one. |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: Dave Hanson Date: 22 Jun 06 - 02:41 AM I believe Marjorie disciplined Woody to write a certain number of words per day when he was writing ' Bound For Glory.' eric |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: GUEST,Obie Date: 22 Jun 06 - 05:17 AM I don't think Woody was the type to discipline himself to anything, but he was very prolific in parts of his life. There were other times that may have not been so good but sure wrote some great stuff. |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: Marion Date: 22 Jun 06 - 04:07 PM Thanks for your comments. I guess I'll have to pore over some of the threads and find out who that statement was about. I know I've seen it here more than once. The Jack Hardy site looks interesting, thanks. Marion |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: GUEST,mg Date: 22 Jun 06 - 04:29 PM I think y ou are fine just the way you are and I would just keep on going and not do anything different. mg |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: Marion Date: 22 Jun 06 - 04:36 PM Thanks Mary. But I was going through a very prolific period when I met you, which has since passed by me. I've only finished one song in the past 12 months... so clearly I've got to get back on track. Marion |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: Willie-O Date: 23 Jun 06 - 12:16 PM I thought the Woody system was to write a song before breakfast every day. That'd get my pen going. The fantasy writer Charles De Lint (also a musician and an old acquaintance of mine) has a very simple system for getting books to the publisher. He writes five pages a day of finished copy, five days a week (or more when deadline looms). Doesn't sound like a huge amount, but that's how he wrote forty published novels over fourteen years, or was it ten years? Do the math. (No wonder some REALLY production-obsessed novelists have written hundreds and hundreds of them--they just get faster.) To speak to the quality question, I think a lot of his work could have been better written had he not focussed on productivity that way. Some of it, especially mid-period works, seemed formulaic to me. However De Lint at his best is very very good and he is still writing fine fantasy adventures. It's not an exact analogy to songwriting, because there is so much less volume of material, and it comes from a different place. Some great songs have been written in fifteen minutes, I think it's a good exercise to commit to, and can probably help if you think over-researching and intellectualizing is getting in the way of your writing. Now then, what's all this about a ten-week vacation??? You're supposed to remember your friends when you win the lottery. I take it you're not back at the cash register of Le Carrotte??? Bill |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: GUEST Date: 23 Jun 06 - 09:36 PM I heard this said about Malvina Reynolds. |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: Bunnahabhain Date: 24 Jun 06 - 03:32 AM I vaugely remember a quote about his songwritng. Can't remeber if it was a recording of him, or one of his descendants. " You write enough songs, and some of 'em will be good" |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: Tootler Date: 24 Jun 06 - 03:16 PM Anthony Trollope, the 19th century author gives an account in his autobiography how he wrote his books. He sat down every day and wrote 750 words and did not finish until he had completed his set number of words. Apparently it [the autobiography] caused quite a stir in Victorian Britain when it was published as it punctured one of the Romantics treasured notions of how an artist should act. |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 24 Jun 06 - 04:35 PM My memory of Woody was that he wrote voraciously and compulsively. It wasn't just a song or two a day. It was all the time and he got account books with hard backs and filled them up and piled 'em high in the Will Geer's seed shack in Topanga Canyon, California circa 1952. There was no Woody Plan. It was just his life style to keep writing and drawing pictures. He would make up songs on the spot like the "Lady's Auxilliary" song. BTW, one of his favorite songs was the Cajun "Jolie Blonde". I remember doin' some pickin' with him in those days. Frank |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: Marion Date: 26 Jun 06 - 06:27 PM Thanks for the further input, everybody. Willie-O: school's out for the summer, silly. And no, the Carrot fired me for not showing up for work for four months. Marion |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: Brían Date: 26 Jun 06 - 10:42 PM I believe Woody's plan, if indeed he had one arose out of the idea that he wrote a column for the Daily Worer. Marjorie chided him for spending his days in the bar while professing to be a worker. He didn't only spend his days writing songs, as some have already mentioned. He spent time in the library reading and taking out books. He wrote columns for newspapers. He wrote poetry and did drawings. Brían |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: SharonA Date: 30 Jun 06 - 10:10 PM Yyyeahhhh, I guess it's easier to find the time to write when you leave your wife and family... twice... (2 wives, 2 sets of kids). Most of us have to devote some time to those sorts of responsibilities instead of writing. ':^/ Another consideration has to do with the type of song one writes. A simply-constructed song can take less time than one with a more complicated structure. (Then again, the process of paring down a song and making it simple can be time-consuming.) For my own part, I write very strictly-structured lyrics with some relatively complex tunes. I think they're pretty simple but my friends complain that my songs are too complicated for them to learn... and that they require a vocal range that is beyond their capacity to sing. I'm lucky if I finish two songs a month. This month, I did -- lucky me! |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 01 Jul 06 - 11:38 AM SharonA, you wrote "Yyyeahhhh, I guess it's easier to find the time to write when you leave your wife and family... twice... (2 wives, 2 sets of kids). Most of us have to devote some time to those sorts of responsibilities instead of writing. ':^/" Although I understand your frustration, your criticism of Woody may not be fair. Woody knew that he had Huntington's Chorea before anyone else knew that about him. He had seen it in his family. It motivated him in a different way then it would others. He spent time writing because it was out of a sense of survival. He knew that he didn't have much time left in his life. He may not have lived up to your ideas of responsibility but we need more charity in the world and less condemnation. I'm not saying Woody's life was ideal in any way or that he was a perfect person. But we all try to become better human beings in whatever way we can with what experience we have been given. I'm not putting down "responsibility" in any way for children, family, or others but I believe we see the daily condemnation of unprincipled self-righteous pundits who call themselves Christians run roughshod over others flying the flag of "responsibility" when they themselves belie that very principle in their behavior. I'm not saying you are one of these folks, but I think we need to be temperate in our judgement of other's behavior until all the evidence is in. I loved Woody and recognized that he was not going to be accepted as a conventional role model as a parent or husband. I refer you to Phil Och's message, "There but for fortune go you or go I". Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: Big Mick Date: 01 Jul 06 - 11:49 AM Wise words, Frank. The brew which creates a functioning human being is never made with the same ingredients. One needs to read the various tomes about him paying particular attention to his early life, the tragedies that befell his family at an early age, his father's various dealings, etc. Two popular biographies on Guthrie have been published: Klein, Joe. Woody Guthrie – A Life. New York: Knopf, 1980; Cray, Ed. Ramblin' Man – The Life and Times of Woody Guthrie. New York: W.W. Norton, 2004. Read them and you will get a look at the things that shaped him later in life. Add in the Huntington's Chorea, and I believe you will start to realize that it is pretty amazing that this man functioned on the level he did. One needs only read the lyrics he wrote to know that this was a man with a huge heart, who loved folks in general, kids in particular, the unfullfilled promise of his country. When Frank says he loved Woody, it is because they were friends. The rest of us can only know him by what he has left us. Approach what is left to us with an open mind, and you will find the reason why his friends loved him as well. All the best, Mick Lane |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: SharonA Date: 01 Jul 06 - 12:55 PM Frank and Mick, I've read your posts and I'll take your POV under consideration and follow your advice to do some more reading on the subject. But let me play devil's advocate here for a moment, and turn the argument (i.e. just because he wasn't perfect doesn't mean he wasn't great) the other way 'round: just because he was great doesn't mean he was perfect. In other words, we don't have to say, "Ooooh, Woody Guthrie used this method of songwriting so we all should because he's a folk icon." I stand by my statement as it relates to the subject of this thread: most of us lead the "conventional" lifestyle that prevents us from writing at the pace that Guthrie did. That includes people who, for one reason or another, do not "have much time left" in their lives. They (we?) make the choice to leave a different legacy. |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: SharonA Date: 01 Jul 06 - 01:55 PM P.S. -- Mick seems to think I don't have an open mind, and Frank seems to think I'm uncharitable and perhaps even hypocritical, as they assess my statement about Woody Guthrie, whom I have never met. Neither Frank nor Mick has ever met me, yet they've both made some quite negative value judgments about me based on my brief but true statement about Guthrie. Ironic, ain't it? |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: Big Mick Date: 01 Jul 06 - 02:04 PM Actually, Sharon, I was just responding to yours and Frank's comments. As you state, quite rightly, I don't know you. I meant nothing about you, other than responding to: Yyyeahhhh, I guess it's easier to find the time to write when you leave your wife and family... twice... (2 wives, 2 sets of kids). Most of us have to devote some time to those sorts of responsibilities instead of writing. ':^/ BTW, did you know Woody Gutherie? It seems that your comments about Woody, Frank, and myself might fall right into your own statement. Ironic, ain't it? Mick |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: SharonA Date: 01 Jul 06 - 02:12 PM Read my previous post again, Mick: I said I never met Guthrie. |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: SharonA Date: 01 Jul 06 - 02:29 PM ...so I went to The Woody Guthrie Foundation website and looked at his bio. Wow, I didn't realize that when he courted his second wife, Marjorie Mazia, she was married to someone else. So Guthrie was a homewrecker! Now I have even less respect for the way he conducted his personal affairs. Thanks, Frank and Mick, for opening my eyes to this! |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: C. Ham Date: 01 Jul 06 - 04:49 PM Well SharonA, maybe it was Marjorie who was the homewrecker. After all, Woody had a wife and three kids when she met him. I don't think Marjorie had kids from her first marriage. But you know, not all marriages last forever, for whatever reasons. I never met Woody, but I know all three of the kids from his second marriage, most of his grandchildren by those kids and now, even some of his great-grandchildren. They're all terrific people. |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: Jeri Date: 01 Jul 06 - 05:23 PM And Guthrie's love life is completely irrelevant to the way he wrote songs and what Marion asked in her opening post. |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: GUEST,SharonA (your dogma ate my cookie) Date: 01 Jul 06 - 05:28 PM Fine. Forget I said anything. Woody Guthrie is a saint and everybody is a terrific person except uncharitable, close-minded, hypocritical me. Time for me to go back to lurking. Bye. |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: Jeri Date: 01 Jul 06 - 06:49 PM OK. Seriously, two songs a week is hard!? I don't think so. Two decent songs is a bit more difficult. My main problem is that a can't find things I WANT to write about these days. I've got around 10 in some state of partial completion and the last one I finished was last September. Maybe I ought to try this as it sort of gets one past trying to write THE song. |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: GUEST Date: 01 Jul 06 - 07:17 PM gutthrie letter to alan lomax end of page two begginning of page three |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: Jeri Date: 01 Jul 06 - 07:59 PM Thanks - I had no idea there were letters at the American Memory site! |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 02 Jul 06 - 10:33 AM I'm wondering whether it's fair to evaluate an artist's output by judging his/her behavior. Some of the greatest musical artists, whether writers, composers, performers etc. have all had personality flaws or at least lived outside the confines of what some consider to be the bounds of decency. In fairness to Woody, I don't believe that his lifestyle influenced the quality of his artistic output. How an artist conducts their personal affairs seems to have little bearing on the value of their output. i think it's appropriate to decry the actions of a brilliant pianist like Geisiking (sp?) for performing and supporting the Nazis. But what Woody did was certainly not nearly as reprehensible. Marjorie loved Woody and understood his situation. She was sensible enough to protect herself as well. She did not dismiss Woody as a "homewrecker" but saw a man in mental trouble trying to help himself in whatever way he could. Her love for him was special. Woody's gift was to consolidate a story or complex social problem into a simple, direct and honest statement in a song. It set a model for all of us. This is why many of us consider him a great artist. He kept his focus. He knew who he was singing to and just as important, who the person in the song was singing to. His song told stories whereby you could find a line that stands out and glitters. "Some will rob you with a six-gun and some with a fountain pen". "In the shadow of a steeple"........................ "Take a trip with me in 1913"...............a simple lead-in to a great song. He wrote simply based on music that he knew and loved. He loved the Carter Family, Cajun music, blues, early country music such as Jimmie Rodgers, and the labor songs of Aunt Molly Jackson. He also loved the sound of a five-string banjo. A songwriter has to find his/her original voice. To do this, a certain personal integrity must be present and honored. Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: Willie-O Date: 02 Jul 06 - 11:53 AM Criticizing a writer for spending all his time writing is like objecting to water being wet. The dried-out water just doesn't have the same je-ne-sais-quoi. W-O (haven't written a song in five years. could say its because I spend all my time looking after the compulsive non-stop writer/creative spark in my family, but that would be a lame excuse and not true. Feels like it sometimes though.) |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: GUEST,bob af Date: 02 Jul 06 - 02:25 PM If a songwriter is like Woody Guthrie and wants to use folk music to change the world, then he or she would probably have enough to say to make it worthwhile to write three songs a week, perhaps. But if a songwriter doesn't have Woody Guthrie's passion for social justice, it probably would be difficult for that person to avoid overwriting or writing too many songs that sound alike in tune. What I think was good about Woody Guthrie's personal life, besides his artistic creativity, was that (unlike most U.S. professional musicians) he was unwilling to sell out to the U.S. or UK corporate music industry in order to become a millionaire entertainer. His treatment of women in his personal life, though, was apparently considered exploitative by some people. If you believe that it's more important for a U.S. left-wing artist to be a good human being than a great artist and that "the personal is political" then you probably should not elevate Woody Guthrie into an icon or saint, although he was, admittedly, the greatest U.S. songwriter of the 20th century. |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: vielleuse Date: 02 Jul 06 - 07:14 PM I occasionally take part in a thing organised by friends where you have one day to write six songs on a theme that one person decides on. It's definitely been good for me: even when the resulting songs weren't usable (and frankly most of them were silly and crap), it forced me to think much more creatively and generally gave me a shove forward. |
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Subject: RE: Songwriters: tried Woody Guthrie plan? From: Max Date: 02 Jul 06 - 07:26 PM Pete Seeger said Malvina Reynolds writes one every morning before breakfast. I'm happy with a few per year. |
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