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BS: Mark Oaten
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Subject: BS: Mark Oaten From: GUEST Date: 15 Jun 06 - 06:34 PM Most unedifying spectacle of the week on BBC Question Time. The attempt by MP Mark Oaten to resurrect his career on the David Dimbleby programme. Oaten has admitted sexual relations with young "rent boys"...homosexual prostitutes and on Question Time said that he had been hounded by the press for what was basically a private matter. Oaten failed to mention what psychological or financial problems would cause these young men to have sex with a fat, sleazy pervert in his late fifties. He made great play on the fact that the real victims in this sordid affair were his wife and children, again failing to address the point that he had put them in great physical danger from STD's. Oaten seemed to arouse sympathy in the studio audiance and was fawned over in the most sickening manner by Shami Chakribati, spokesperson of "Liberty" a human rights organisation. It seems that today, politicians can behave in the most abusive and disgusting ways, but if they admit their wrongdoing and apologise to the public, they are treated like heros......political correctness at its very worst!! This man is entirely without scruples, so he should be allowed to remain a Member of Parliament....but should never be given a platform on national Television....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: John MacKenzie Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:13 AM Yes Ake I too found that a totally unedifying spectacle. I'm afraid that all today's politicians prove, is that there's no honour amongst thieves, or perverts for that matter. The last honourable politician was the late Robin Cook who was prepared to resign for his principles rather than sell them for a mess of pottage. I also see that in the wake of the John Prescott fiasco, it is now proposed that civil servants who have a relationship with another member of staff should be required to notify their head of department. So as long as somebody knows, that's all right then! What a load of shite. Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Paul Burke Date: 16 Jun 06 - 05:51 AM Ake, is your objection that he had sex outside marriage, that he used prostitutes, or that the prostitutes were male? I can't see how he put his children at risk through STDs. You don't know what precautions against these he and his various partners may have been taking. And I can't see that personal sexual failings make anyone a non- person. certainly not compared with wrecking economies, starting wars, or arranging fat-cat appointments for your mates. If you include these, there's only Tony Benn and pompous old Martin Bell left. In general, I would say that a person's sexual affairs are his or her own, unless they can be shown to have harmful effects on society as a whole. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: John MacKenzie Date: 16 Jun 06 - 07:08 AM So does that mean that someone who is devious and deceitful in his private life is unlikely to be so in his public life? G.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: katlaughing Date: 16 Jun 06 - 07:25 AM AIDS can be harmful to a family, transmitted from one parent to the other; if the mother gets it, then becomes pregnant, then the foetus/fetus could have it, too. Also, human papplioma(sp) virus can cause uterine cancer, which in turn may mean a loss of cervix due to surgery, which may mean weeks in bed, again, if she became pregnant, in order for the foetus/fetus to not "fall out." Then, there's herpes...exposing his wife to any STDs is inexcusable, and could have a peripheral effect on their children, if not direct. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Bunnahabhain Date: 16 Jun 06 - 07:26 AM From what we know of current and recent politicians, there are politicians who are honest in their private lives and dishonest in office, the unreported majority who are honest in both, the Rump dishonest in both, and those dishonest in their private lives, but honest in office. There doesn't seem to be a srtong correlation, positive or negative, between honesty in pravate and public. Note honesty and competence are very different issues. John Prescott for instance, despite his affairs, has been honest about his departmental business. He's been as much use a a rubber spanner, but honest. Also I agree completley with Paul Burke. Everybody deserves a private life, even politicians. Celebraties forfit this though, when they start selling stories about themselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: John MacKenzie Date: 16 Jun 06 - 07:38 AM John Profumo must be spinning in his grave! G.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Paul Burke Date: 16 Jun 06 - 08:10 AM katl, all is true, and is the risk all people take when having sexual relationships with any others - including those they are married to. Put him down, you don't know where he's been. The only way to avoid risk of STDs at all is to live a life of total asexuality, and you might be unlucky then. People don't and won't do that. People have affairs. That's a GOOD thing, because sexuality is good. There are risks, there are risks about everything in life. I don't approve of the use of prostitutes myself, but many would say that's because I'm too mean to pay. It does increase the risk, especially if precautions are not taken, but unless you know a lot about Oaten than I do, you don't know exactly what he was doing. A climber exposes his children to the risk of sudden bereavement. A driver may well be risking having his loved ones burned alive. Someone selfishly keeping themselves alive using powerful drugs risks a small child taking those drugs inadvertently. I know one mother whose small child ate a whole month's supply of contraceptive pills. I think a blue- nosed moralising approach is more suitable for the pews and pulpits of the Wee Free kirk, and I bet even the Meenister is having it away on the QT when he goes for those trips to Edinburgh. What did someone say about chucking stones? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Les in Chorlton Date: 16 Jun 06 - 01:41 PM Some where up above some one makes the point that most politicians are honest and inmy experience I think that is true. They don what they do and we can vote them out. Would you vote foe Mark? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: GUEST Date: 16 Jun 06 - 02:44 PM Oaten is playing the sympathy card, blaming the media for hounding him. By admitting what he has been up to, and throwing himself on the mercy of the public, he hopes to kick-start a career which if he had any principles he would have given up when all this came to light. He has abused the privacy of his wife and family and means to compound this abuse by continuing in public office. The young boys whom he used for his gratification, (rent boys) are usually addicted to hard drugs or have other psychological problems related to their sexuality.....easy prey for a manipulative sleazbag. I would partially agree that people deserve a private life (with reservations), but Oaten is a public figure who's job is dependant on the goodwill of the British public....Jock's right to point out that if someone is a devious abuser in private he is likely to be so in public life. I was also drawing attention to how these things are used by politicians to raise their profile, rather than feel shame in their behaviour. They are assisted by "politically correct" idiots like the Chakirabati woman, and the public are conned every time. This thread was not supposed to be about homosexuality as such and Paul is wrong to try to wreck my argument by insinuating "homophobia" whatever the fuck that means!!......Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 16 Jun 06 - 02:55 PM Ake, I read all that diatribe from "guest" and was amazed to find your name at the end of it. I didn't see the show, so can't comment on that specifically. But on the general principle, Paul's first post said it for me, entirely. Giok mentioned John Profumo, and there could be no better example of a decent man and politician, nearly ruined by the hypocritical mores of his day - and of this day too, it sometimes seems. (He was at the opposite end of the political spectrum from me - apart from his courageous stand against the Hitler appeasers - but that's not the point.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Les in Chorlton Date: 16 Jun 06 - 02:55 PM Ok Guest, take it easy, you clearly feel a bit right. Homophobia is fear of people who are homosexual, I think, don't you? No name then Guest, nothing to hide though? Just don't put a foot wrong then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: GUEST Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:07 PM Hello Peter!! I'm sorry we dont see eye to eye on this one. I thought you would be against the cynical use of PC for political ends...Anyway great to see you back but you're a bit late to see the "rout of the Blairites". Hope you stick around for a while...you've been missed. Les you can fuck off back to Blairsville...........I fear no one...Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Amos Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:20 PM The simplest light I can place on this issue is one of betrayal of trust. One does not make vows in marriage in order to create an acceptable front for perverted wanderings at night. Not because his playing with boys is inherently right or wrong, but because it is a betrayal of trust. Redoubled by making political capital out of it, or trying to. Were I his wife, I would be down the road with no forward by now. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: John MacKenzie Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:26 PM Profumo was forced to resign for lying to the house of commons, not for his sexual peccadiloes. Today's politicians don't have that sort of integrity. They can be caught doing anything, and yet they still insist on continuing their career as an MP. The people who run the country are supposed to set an example to those they presume to legislate for. Like Caeser's wife they should be above suspicion. It is no wonder our children behave the way they do, when they are set such examples. Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: katlaughing Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:45 PM Paul I'm not blue-nosing and I don't know a thing about Oaten. I just wanted to state what kind of risk is involved with his supposed behaviour. You are right when you say ...sexuality is good. There are risks, there are risks about everything in life. IMO, the risks are better served in an open and communicative marriage/relationship than not. It's the whole betrayal of trust thing mentioned above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Les in Chorlton Date: 16 Jun 06 - 05:50 PM Les you can fuck off back to Blairsville...........I fear no one...Ake Really? You seem just a bit too jumpy and who are you anyway? To some extent fair comment. The Labour Party is much older and more complex then Blair. Most of us in the Party want our Party back. It may be too late but I think not. Strange how this thread about the Lib Dems has taken a different course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: John MacKenzie Date: 16 Jun 06 - 05:56 PM Les it would be the same if he was a labour MP, in fact looking back, his party affiliations have not been mentioned prior to your post. So it's not really a post about the Lib Dems is it? Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Big Phil Date: 16 Jun 06 - 06:16 PM Honest MP's, John Prescot, rubber spanner's, Sleezy MP's get a grip. out of 650 you will be lucky to find 1 honest, God fearing, man/woman among the debris that we call parliament......All of them are out for the Perks, expenses, pensions, minesterial cars, jollys abroad, full time wage for part time work, nepotism of the highest order, Directorships, the list goes on and on, once the snout is in the Parliamentarian Trough, it just cannot get enough. Just keep going to work to pay your taxes and keep these parasites in the lap of luxury. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Bunnahabhain Date: 16 Jun 06 - 06:54 PM I personally know several MPs, and they are hard working, honest, and truely want make things better for a vast majority* of people. Unfortunatly, they're not ministers. * name one measure that will unquestionably make life better for absolutly everyone. Until you can, don't pick on the highlighted phrase. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Les in Chorlton Date: 16 Jun 06 - 07:23 PM All of them are out for the Perks, expenses, pensions, minesterial cars, jollys abroad, full time wage for part time work, nepotism of the highest order, Directorships, the list goes on and on, once the snout is in the Parliamentarian Trough, it just cannot get enough. Just keep going to work to pay your taxes and keep these parasites in the lap of luxury. This is the Daily Mail |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Les in Chorlton Date: 17 Jun 06 - 01:41 AM And you are quite correct John, it wasn't about Lib Dems. it started out as a reasonable question about Mark Oaten. Becoming a "Rent Boy" is not like becoming a banjo player and neither is "using?" "Rent Boys". I guess people will have to decide if they trust him, I don't think I do. I use to trust Blair, now I don't and lots of other people don't either and I think he should go. But I don't think all politicians of all or any party are corrupt and self serving. It is not incommon on this website for people to declare that all politicians and politics itself are corrupt and we should have nothing to do with them. Do those people want the country run by Walmart? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Big Phil Date: 17 Jun 06 - 04:03 AM Les in Chorlton Wrong I'm afraid, never read the Daily Mail in my life, do not need to read about any subject, can form my own opinions on my own thank you................By the way, if it acts like a rat, smells like a rat and looks like a rat, chances are it is a rat Matey......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: akenaton Date: 17 Jun 06 - 04:26 AM "name one measure that will unquestionably make life better for absolutly everyone". An absolutely wonderful piece of politik speak Don't insult the intelligent people here with such crap!....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: John MacKenzie Date: 17 Jun 06 - 04:30 AM Although I had no evidence to back it up, I never trusted Tony Blair. He came across as a 'trimmer' then, and has proved to be one since. It was pretty obvious that he was prepared to sacrifice nearly all his party's beliefs in the pursuit of power. He has moved the Labour Party so far to the right that there is now a political vacuum on the left wing of politics, which might explain the rise and rise of some of the exremist parties. It seems to me that The Vicar of Bray has more than met his match in Anthony A Blair, turncoat of this parish. Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Les in Chorlton Date: 17 Jun 06 - 06:48 AM "do not need to read about any subject, can form my own opinions on my own thank you" Well you really are sorted then. It was pretty obvious that he was prepared to sacrifice nearly all his party's beliefs in the pursuit of power." What is politics then? It is about getting things done, not simply believing in the right things. I cannot recall a leader of the Labour Party that wasn't unpopular with some party members and most of the public. The real problem is not Blair but the Party's reluctance or inability to assert its democratic mandate of Blair and the policies of the Party. This may be terminal but I think not. As I have said before near here, what do people want to do? Join the Lib Dems, organise inside the Labour Party or post on Forums? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Big Phil Date: 17 Jun 06 - 03:06 PM "The problem is not Blair" we know where you are coming from then, Les in Chorlton |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: melodeonboy Date: 17 Jun 06 - 07:58 PM Yeah, it's Chorlton, ain't it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Les in Chorlton Date: 18 Jun 06 - 12:25 PM So, my cunning disguise has not worked. Sorry, you are correct, the problem is Blair but it has become much bigger as I hope I heve described above. Drift drift |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: akenaton Date: 18 Jun 06 - 06:09 PM An apology is due to Bunnahabhain for my grumpiness in my last post. However I can name several measures which will unquestionably make life better for absolutely everybody. Here's three to be going on with... The complete banning of the production and sale of cigarettes. The exclusion of all motor cars from cities. The complete destruction of the Capitalist system...both State and private............Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Jun 06 - 08:32 PM How open can anyone be? Vote for me, I use rent boys - but so did Oscar Wilde, and he was all right. as Oscar said, To get one dose of syph might be considered a misfortune, but a handbaa-ag! will there ever come a time when the candidates campaign material drops through your door with the posed picture of the upstanding member in the shower with a compliant friend? Nah......50 years hence it will still be the same - picture of a bald old git, surrounded by his depressing family, 2.3 shiny faced kids and by implication 3.2 shags a decade with dessicated wife. He is a regular goer (church, that is) and in his youth was a yachting blue for Doncaster Tech. and made the First Eleven for Dumbartonshire, whose fortunes he still follows keenly. After a successful business career, he decided it was time to give something back - in fact, if you vote for him, he will probably slip you a quid on the quiet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: John MacKenzie Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:34 AM You're a cynic Al. G. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Big Al Whittle Date: 19 Jun 06 - 07:29 AM No I'm a realist When the love triangle between Blair, Martin McGuinness and a golden retriever is revealed - I will expect some apologies..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Bunnahabhain Date: 19 Jun 06 - 08:35 AM We get the leaders we vote for, at least. It is perfectly possible for people to be elected as an independant. if it possible to do so without a prominant sngle issue campaign, or huge satisfaction with the party that has dominated that area for decades, I don't know. Having a decent number of independants in parliment would be good for democracy, and might even promote some better though out bills. Ake, Banning Tobacco? I think you may be right on that one. The other two I'd have to disagree with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: John MacKenzie Date: 19 Jun 06 - 09:54 AM We don't get the leaders we vote for, this government was elected with the votes of something like 23% of those registered to vote in the UK. That is not representative of the population, all of whom are affected by the legislation passed by the plonkers. I've said before, and I'll say it again, voting should be compulsory. Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Paul Burke Date: 19 Jun 06 - 10:21 AM If voting were compulsory, I'd spoil the ballot. Apart from the Greens (of various names over time), who have never run in any constituency I've lived in, ALL of the current parties are so remote from anything I'd be prepared to support as to be risible. Most of them are chasing after the same marketing- generated profile. The ones that aren't are either batty or dangerous. And screwing males/ females inside/ outside marriage is the least of my concerns. And I don't care how much they drink, if they do the job. I'm far more interested in who they are in hock to, what favours they hope to get from whom, and how open they want government to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Les in Chorlton Date: 19 Jun 06 - 12:37 PM I guess I can copy Altan to my Ipod or keep chipping away. Chip, Chip. Many people cannot be trusted unless what they do is open and others have a say in what they are doing. That is why most politicians need parties to bother them. Politicians who are truly independent can easily please no one. The current problem is not simply Blair but that millions of ordinary voters have no route to him. And before you say it, yes I should have stuck with Altan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: John MacKenzie Date: 19 Jun 06 - 12:41 PM I would have thought the between the Brown Twins, Blair, Reid, and all the other Scots in this government, that you'd have gone off all things Celtic Les! Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Les in Chorlton Date: 19 Jun 06 - 03:03 PM You really how to dig out controversy John! I love all that music and I guess Celtic is as good a name as any in that people know what they might be getting. I found most of it a bit quick and difficult to play. I could easily leave it alone, but it sounds so good! As I was born a mile from the Mersey, on the Cheshire side and now live a mile from the Mersey in Manchester I supppose I should play English music, which I do a bit. Somebody said all political careers end in failure, true? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: melodeonboy Date: 19 Jun 06 - 07:46 PM I think Paul Burke makes some very interesting points. The question of who's shagging who fills up the pages of the tabloids but is, for the most part, a distraction from the real issue of who the politicians are really representing and working for. I've lived abroad for many years, mainly in countries where people had no chance to vote, and in some cases where they suffered greatly when they tried to get it. It makes it all the sadder for me when I return to Britain and find that, like Paul Burke, I feel effectively disenfranchised. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Les in Chorlton Date: 20 Jun 06 - 01:51 AM "I've lived abroad for many years, mainly in countries where people had no chance to vote, and in some cases where they suffered greatly when they tried to get it. It makes it all the sadder for me when I return to Britain and find that, like Paul Burke, I feel effectively disenfranchised." This says so much. But democracy is a long term process. People say things like "Well I voted for so and so, but it made no difference, I won't vote for them again," is if one vote in one constituency can make much difference. Those of us who worked from 1979 until 1997 to oppose and replace Thatcherism knew it was a long battle. It is easy to say we achieved nothing, which clearly I don't accept that. But that is not the point. You can join in this long process in which each of count as one and none for more than one or you can post here! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Paul Burke Date: 20 Jun 06 - 03:49 AM Les, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but you didn't replace Thatcherism in 1997. If it's a long battle, we're losing as badly now as in 1986. And if you you think Blair and New Labour are on your side, you are probably on the wrong side. You'll probably respond with something about the most redistributive government since Wat Tyler, but I don't think a combination of smoke, mirrors, bread and big brother makes for a sustainable society. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: John MacKenzie Date: 20 Jun 06 - 05:08 AM They do say that you never see Tony Blair and Maggie Thatcher together, and when you go into the toilet after she's been using it, the toilet seat is standing upright! Up the New Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Daithi Date: 20 Jun 06 - 08:34 AM Mark Oaten, in his late fifties? Really? Looks good on it then... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: John MacKenzie Date: 20 Jun 06 - 08:47 AM Is there an optician in the house? G.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Paco Rabanne Date: 20 Jun 06 - 09:16 AM "Homophobia? I've never by frightened of my house." - Peter Kay. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Les in Chorlton Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:39 PM Ok, no matter what I say some of you will not accept what has been achieved. So, I ask you again, what are you going to do apart from post here? We worked hard in Manchester and took 4 seats from the Lib Dems, and lost none. Not everybody is as unhappy as you and the Guardian |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: John MacKenzie Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:46 PM Happy?? Not me mate, they're all a bunch of slimeballs no matter what label they wear. Same trough different swine! G. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: akenaton Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:33 AM Well said Jock!! Trouble is folks like Les need to feel that they are accomplishing something. Politics become a "reason d'etre". There is always some snake oil salesman like Blair around to tell them what a good job they are doing and salve their consciences enough to allow them to sleep at night. In reality Les and company, while believing that they are making things better are simply enabling the Tory, Lab, Liberal conspirisy to continue with catastrophic long term consequences for our environment and our children. All the major parties are in power first and foremost to keep Capitalism running and most politicans are there to secure as much power and money for themselves as is possible....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Les in Chorlton Date: 21 Jun 06 - 01:14 PM "In reality Les and company, while believing that they are making things better are simply enabling the Tory, Lab, Liberal conspirisy to continue with catastrophic long term consequences for our environment and our children. All the major parties are in power first and foremost to keep Capitalism running" Akenaton, most of this is true. So what are you going to do? What version of socialism do you have? Share it with us, I know we need one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: John MacKenzie Date: 21 Jun 06 - 01:38 PM We've tried socialism, which insists on dragging us all down to the same level of poverty. We've tried Thatcherism which gave us the phenomenon of people who couldn't string a sentence together in recognisable English, working in the city and driving Porsches. Why don't we try democracy, where everybody's vote counts, and our elected representatives are held responsible for their actions. That would be different wouldn't it? Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Big Al Whittle Date: 21 Jun 06 - 01:47 PM not going to happen Gok, in a country when such a small portion of the population own so much of the wealth. They will always be the boil on the arse of this nation, deciding who gets the nicest houses, the most money, the best jobs, whose records get played on the radio - and the seating arrangements generally. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: akenaton Date: 21 Jun 06 - 02:11 PM Well I don't feel obliged to provide any answers. Many, much more intelligent than I have tried and all failed miserably. However I do think I am able to see and comment on the blindingly obvious. I take it that we are all agreed that the priority for governments supplied by any of the main parties is to keep the Capitalist Roadshow moving. The freedom and happiness of those who elect them is purely secondary. The recent debachle in Iraq is an example of the sort of measures our politicians will be prepared to take to provide the "oxygen" of energy required to keep the old tyrant breathing. You ain't seen nothing yet....as Capitalism enters it's death throws and the war to secure the "lifeblood" hots up, the atrocities of Iraq will seem as nothing. Capitalism will not, like Communism go quietly to the grave. But will take half the World with it....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Les in Chorlton Date: 21 Jun 06 - 05:42 PM "Well I don't feel obliged to provide any answers." So, is that it then? Posting on a folk website? I am sure the bastions of capitalism quake! Many people who cae about the environment and the need for the redistribution of power and wealth are in the Labour Party and they want something other than Blair. Keep posting. It is a waste of time but it saves the bother of knocking on doors and going to meetings and it is clearly so much more effective. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Big Al Whittle Date: 21 Jun 06 - 06:03 PM posting on a folk website is a hundred times better than throwing a bomb, or shooting an enemy soldier. actually its a bloody sight more revolutionary. The internet has barely started to assert its influence on the life of the planet. It is surely the only important battleground for the next hundred years or so. Already people are telling the august transmitters and arbiters of taste and tradition and religion, they can get stuffed. Look at all those websites where just ordiary people can express themselves and publish their thoughts and feelings without recourse to political parties or wealthy patronage. How in the future will they ever combat the basic decency of man, now that we speak with each other so easily. Knock on doors........sod that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Les in Chorlton Date: 21 Jun 06 - 06:18 PM True enough Drummer, I agree with most of what you say, but most of us have a door on which to knock and when it opens we meet each other. I thing the web is powerful but not as powerful as your face and your direct presence. Am I right or what? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: akenaton Date: 21 Jun 06 - 06:48 PM Al....Your eloquence does you credit. I am sure that post would affect more people than the work of a dozen party hacks. Les...the demise of Capitalism? It will choke to death in it's own pollution....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Les in Chorlton Date: 22 Jun 06 - 01:24 PM True enough Ake, the trouble is so will we and lots of creatures too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Paul Burke Date: 23 Jun 06 - 03:57 AM Here's a quick one for you Les: is there any point at which you WOULD decide the Labour Party has gone too far right? For me, it was the dropping of Clause 4 back. That's when I let my membership die. Since then it's moved steadily rightwards. Where was it when you joined? I voted Labour at every election from 1971 to 2000. Though in 2000 I only voted for the local council candidate, not for the party nationally. In 2004 I couldn't even stomach voting for the local guy, even though he's excellent apart from the party tag, and I can't imagine ever voting Labour again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Les in Chorlton Date: 24 Jun 06 - 03:38 AM Good question Paul. I look at the party in a number of ways. It is currently a government so we can change things. The reality has always been, we don't change much and some things we do are wrong, though not all. Secondly the party is an historic collection of people with it's roots in trade union and other working class organisations, granted it's activists and supporters come from a much broader constituency. I still believe that matters. I don't go to branch meetings because they have been unpleasnt and they are not really a forum where quality discussion can take place. I always leaflet and canvass because it is one of the few direct democratic activities we can be involved in. The Labour Party, perhaps more than other parties, has a struggle between the Cabinet, the MPs and the grass roots. Far too much power now lies with the Cabinet - particularly with Blair. I guess this issue is far too big for a post. The Party will survive this like it survived all kinds of other problems and it is to the party I owe loyalty. As for right and left, I have searched for socialism, and still do, but don't find any coherent model or example. I understand that much of the SWP have fell in with Respect. Are they left wing? - The grandchildren of Trotsky and George the Stalinist - strange discussions they musy have. So, I remain with thousands of others in the biggish unhappy tent. I know people are happier in the Green Party, and so they should, they have some of the best and most important policies. They will find themselves welcomed in the Labour Party and with a much better chance of getting policies implemented. I think politics is about getting something done about the redistribution of power and wealth not simply 'knowing' what is right. I can understand if people think it is a waste of time - we never achieve what we thought we might when we were 18 or 23 or something - "To take for who ever the full fruits....... by common ownership of the means of production, distribution and control." The grass roots is/are unhappy but we still exist and we will be here after Blair and we swear we will not make the same mistake again, although I suspect we will. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: John MacKenzie Date: 24 Jun 06 - 05:24 AM President Blair has been working very hard to cut his party's reliance on trade union funding, My guess is that he's ashamed of the working class roots of the labour party, as he seems to see it as a middle class supported party. In a way it is, as many who describe themselves today as working class, are what would in the Keir Hardy days definitely be described as middle class. The ruthless pursuit of donations from big business therefore has a twofold advantage for TB, it severes the umbilical cord of his union supplied finances, and gives his new labour party a veneer of respectability, and acceptance outside the working class. The time is rapidly approaching when there will be a need for the trade unions to start and fund a new political party of their own, as this one has almost ceased to represent them, as well as the ethos of it's founding fathers. Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mark Oaten From: Les in Chorlton Date: 24 Jun 06 - 06:13 AM So who will create this new party John and what will it be like? Roots in the TU / working class, broad support across the new middle class, commitment to re-distribution of power and wealth? |
