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Nonsense in childlore
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Subject: Nonsense in childlore From: Mo the caller Date: 11 Jun 06 - 02:14 PM In the coca cola thread http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=91948&messages=48#1753010 Azizi says "we felt that many African American children would quickly tire of the repetitive nonsense or unfamiliar words or sounds in both the songs." Some English children seem to enjoy having a language of their own. Someone I was at camp with once taught me her "family warcry". It went something like I zigazumba zumba zumba I zigazumba zumba zee Oh eye shopawaddle oladiddle* *(I've got that bit wrong) Oladiddle oladiddle Om pom push I think she also used some form of the Yan tan pethera rhyme, that's supposed to come from an old counting system. http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/30/messages/2015.html Then there is backtalk, where (I think) you move the first letter to the end of the word and add a nonsense syllable. Did anyone actually use this? I don't think we did, was it more common with children who went to boarding schools and needed to guard their privacy? |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: John MacKenzie Date: 11 Jun 06 - 02:31 PM There was a song with those lyrics as a chorus, it is call 'Mow them Down you Zulu Warriors' I think. It was a song I learnt in the Boy Scouts many years ago. Giok |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: Azizi Date: 11 Jun 06 - 03:16 PM Hello, Mo the caller,and others. I want to be clear that I was not saying that African American children who my daughter and I have met with both formally and informally in game song/rhymes groups & presentations never recite rhymes that have nonsense or unfamiliar words. One such rhyme from the 1980s to date that I will cite is "Boom Chicka Boom" I saida boom chicka boom I saida boom chicka boom-om I saida boom chicka rocka chicka rocka chicka boom Alright! Okay now one more time etc. -snip- What I did say in that post you referred to, Mo, was that neither my daughter, nor I have ever heard any children we have met with recite songs "Ram Sam Sam" or "Ging Gang Goolee". Futhermore, I speculated that one reasons why these songs may not be popular among the African American children in our groups may be because they don't appear to be syncopated or percussive enough. I also provided specifics why I thought the words in "Ging Gang Goolee" might be misconstrued by African American children. Click Here for that thread. The post in question was at 04 Jun 06 - 08:17 PM. **** Also, though it may be off-subject, for the record, this repost from another Mudcat thread also addresses what I consider to be differences in the types of rhymes favored by African American and non-African American children's rhymes: Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes From: Azizi - PM Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:53 PM Tannywheeler & others: Since 1997 to date I've been doing formal presentations on children's rhymes and informal interactions with [mostly African American] children in [mostly] the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area. As part of my presentation, I ask children what rhymes they know. Actually, I ask them what "songs" they know, because that seems to be the term that they use for handclapping and other 'street' rhymes. In all of that time, no individual children nor any groups of children ever volunteered that they knew the "great big globs of mutiliated monkey meat etc." rhyme. Nor in that time period or before have I ever heard any child "sing" this rhyme [or for that matter, other what I call "gross out" rhymes". I'm wondering if this rhyme and other rhymes of that genre aren't as well known among African American children as they appear to be among European-American children. And if that is so, could it be because these rhymes aren't usually performed with hand-clapping routines, or foot stomping movements, It seems to me that percussive handclap routines or foot stomping routines are a common feature of African American contemporary 'street' rhymes. Any thoughts about this? **** and they {for instance, am I wrong in believeing tswas be{and in my daughtercwe inhave aid that da I speculated that this might be because these songs were not syncopated enough and recited to the accompaniment of percussive movements such as partner or group handclap routines or bass sounding foot stomping movements. For my complete quote, see What I was trying to say was that neither my daughter, or me, nor the children we have worked with chItit appears to me bibsaying was could cite examples of those rhymes. However, what I was saying was that and unfamiliar words or nonsense icalcveusedce believe that it might be helpful to repost an excerpt of my post that Mo the caller is referring to: |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: Azizi Date: 11 Jun 06 - 03:23 PM Sorry for that goobly gook at the end which is cut and paste that wasn't cleaned up. But, since I'm here, let me say that the type of secret language talk you may be referring to is still a feature of some Hip-Hop songs {think some of Snoop Doggy Dog's songs}. I recall my mother knowing "Pig Latin" , but I never learned it and I've never heard kids say it-but then again it's supposed to be secret and I am an adult so???? |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 11 Jun 06 - 10:12 PM AZIZI
Thank you for the link listings - missed them before...they are WONDERFUL.
I hope they are "harvested" for the next publication of the Digital Tradition.
We need MORE of your Boom Chicka culture contributing around here.
Our church variations included:
If the UK would butt-out awhile (and American threads stayed posted three days) examples of "line-ing" a hymn (Harper Lee) may reveal my belief that it is the charistma and enthusiasm of the chant/song leader that is contagious and infuses itself into the audience.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: Azizi Date: 11 Jun 06 - 10:26 PM In Pittsburgh, PA kids also have the tradition of singing "Ah Boom Chicka Boom" in different voices. For instance, garbled like you're singing under water and holding your nose and talking like a [stereotypical]telephone operator. Then the rhyme is chanted faster, and then slower, and then louder and softer. Some years ago I saw a brief news segment about an elementary school in the South {US-maybe Atlanta?} and the kids were on the playground singing "Ah Boom Chicka Boom". So this rhyme has really gotten around. And with regards to your comments about UK, I'm not sure that I understand where you're coming from. However, I'd love to read comments about lineing songs. In African American culture, that tradition, wherever or however it originated, lives on in some contemporary Gospel songs in which the soloist says a line and the choir sings it. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. But that's true in life. Best wishes, Azizi |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: Bonecruncher Date: 12 Jun 06 - 12:09 AM Having read the above posts I am not surprised that Azizi should find difficulty in understanding nonsense songs such as "Ging Gang Goo". It is obviously too much of a nonsense! The varying spellings would cause any search engine to suffer indigestion. To quote from The Gilwell Camp Fire Book (Gilwell Park is the Scouts camping headquarters):- "This is a nonsense song if ever there was one, and yet it has swept round the world. No-one really knows where it started. We have heard it introduced as an American song, an Australian Bushman's song, a Malayan dance and a West Indian Calypso. We have a feeling that it was probably born within the sound of Bow Bells! (For those outside of UK Bow is a part of London0. The words couldn't mean less; hence it's charm. It is good to have a few such songs in Scouting as they fit the international pattern so well: everyone starts level and no-one knows what the words mean, but we can all learn to sing and enjoy them." The song is also in the Campfire Light Book, a Scout songbook from Singapore, under the title of Gin Gan Gooli. The way in which,I think, it is best sung is quietly around a campfire, firstly in unison, then as a three- or four-part round. Listened to from a distance the effect is stunning and certainly reminds us of the harmony that singing brings to people. I have sung this song many times with persons black, white, khaki, yellow and any other colour. As regard to "causing offence" to any particular group of persons, there is certainly neither overt nor covert meaning, other than that which some person might perceive due to their own inadequacy or over-active imagination. The reason it "may be banned by certain groups" in UK may ber due to overly precious individuals thinking that "goolee" might be a (UK) slang word referring to testicles. Of course, little boys don't have those! Regarding "secret languages", certainly in the '50's a large number of my schoolfriends (at an ordinary council school) were proficient in "backslang", where the first letter or two of a word were placed at the end, followed by the expression "ay". As an example "oodgay ucklay" is "good luck" in backslang. Children still have their own coded fortm of speech today, although mainly it is by the misuse of words to mean something else. In UK the term "wicked" is an exclamation of approbation! "Cool" has nothing the do with temperature or thermodynamics! Cockney rhyming slang, which appears to be on the increse in UK, is also a form of code. I believe that the original included the word "scarpa" (for Scarpa Flow), to meaa "Go", or "run away" (usually from a policeman making enquires as to whether or not the actions of a group of youths was legitimate. Today it is more frequently written as "scarper". I gather from previous posts that Azizi is past three score of age. Surely he must remember from his youth particular words which were used out of context. Again, these were a form of code to confuse our elders. In Azizi's thread "Kid's Rhymes, Big Mac etc." There is comment about the rhyme "Hey Diddle Diddle" (The dish ran away with the spoon). Although thei might be called a "Mother Gopose" rhyme in the US nearly all theese nursery rhymes (as they are known in the UK) pre-date the story of Mother Goose by several hundred years. Most are references to events in history at a time when the UK populace were unable to speak of our rulers without oppression. "Hey diddle diddle" refers to the Court of Elizabeth 1. Elizabeth was gaily dubbed "The Cat", who danced to the fiddler's tunes throughout her reign. "The Moon" refers to Lord Walsingham, one of her favourites and "The Dog" was the Earl of Leicester whoi was jeered in the line "the little dog laughed" because he sulked at the Queen's flirtatious behaviour. I was rather suprised by Azizi's reasons for his dislike of the parlour game of Musical Chairs (his post 10 June 12.06). Yes, young children might cry when they don't get a seat. Yes, bullies or the more competetive might be rewarded. What the participants learn foremost is that life is a race and that sometimes it is NOT FAIR. The best sportsmen/women are often bullies. Does this detract from the adulation given them when they bring home an Olympic medal for their Country? That bully is now a national hero! All our lives we are bullied by our superiors, especially politicians some of whom (in the UK) are disabled in some way! Similarly LIFE is competetive. It is competetive in obtaining a job, in achieving promotion within that job, or finding enough work to stave off bankruptcy if working for one's self. Unfortunately orderly queues and Bloggs's Turn do not apply in real life! The Communists tried that system and look where they are now. Just as competetive as any other country. If children are not exposed to competition they will make it for themelves. Witness any group of students comparing their exam results, which are posted by number so that names are not seen by other students, "to ensure non-competitiveness". All of them are comparing their results in groups, inevitably leading to either elation or disappointment, hopefully in equal measure. Perhaps Azizi would like to remove his rose-tinted spectacles and look at the REAL world. He might like to consider his own life and any asdvancement he might have made in his life which would have been to the detriment of his colleagues. Why does he get the job of presenting Nursery Rhymes to groups of children? He was in competition for the job against others. Accept life as it is, Azizi. Don't be so precious and stop looking for hidden meanings that are not there. Colyn. |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: Grab Date: 12 Jun 06 - 04:50 AM Re "Gin Gan Gooly", I'm not surprised it hasn't spread to the States, given that it's mostly sung by UK Scouts and passed on by word of mouth rather than CD. You won't find many Brits singing the gopher guts song either. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: Azizi Date: 12 Jun 06 - 01:31 PM Bonecruncher - Not that it matters with regards to your opinions of me and of my opinions, but I'm a she. And for the record, I stand by the statements I have made, Furthermore, you are incorrect that I am "past three scores" in age. And for your information, I wear tinted glasses only when the sun is shining brightly. |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: Bonecruncher Date: 12 Jun 06 - 07:45 PM My apologies, Azizi, for having wrongly assumed your sex (or gender, if you prefer). I assumed your age from one of the earlier posts on the Kid's Rhymes thread but that post was from someone else. Unfortunately my own age and infirmity seem to be catching up with me! Colyn. |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: Azizi Date: 12 Jun 06 - 09:33 PM Bonecruncher, No problem. Actually, I was being technical. You said that I was "past three scores". Actually I'm 'just' 58 years old. ;o) Does this mean that I'm too old to be young? I don't think so. However, it does mean that I'm a 'mature' lady who is interested in what & how children play and what it says about the worldview, attitudes, concerns, and hopes children have. One of my premises is that most children don't think deeply about the rhymes they recite. They leave such musing for the old folks who are tring to remember their childhood and trying to preserve the artifacts of other peoples' childhood for future generations of children & adults. All of this to say, Bonecruncher, that I appreciated your comments. They made me think. And they also made me smile. Best wishes, Azizi |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: GUEST,Bob Coltman Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:44 AM Mo the Caller, Azizi and Bonecruncher: Yes, "backtalk" -- we too called it "Pig Latin" -- was very common among us kids in eastern Pennsylvania, 1940s-50s...oops that dates me. Saying things like "ook-lay out-ay" and "eet-may e-may after-ay ool-schay" was common playground and backyard stuff wherever we thought parents might overhear. We actually thought our parents wouldn't get it! Of course they did. They used the same thing growing up, which would date it back into the 19-teens and 1920s. They snickered at us, and sometime around seven or eight years old we got it that it wasn't a secret language after all, and gave it up. Azizi and Bonecruncher, your discussion is fascinating. Does it need saying we're looking at separate children's cultures here? Hope I don't tread on any toes in saying anything that follows! But it's hard for me to imagine African-American kids finding "Ram Sam Sam" or "Great green gobs" interesting in the least, if they even chanced to hear them. They refer back to a white kid culture with all its assumptions about humor, and as Azizi hints, are rhythmically simplistic too. Equally white kids might find black kids' rhymes like "Who All Is Here" or "Satisfied" appealing -- if they chance to hear them, which most didn't -- but these too refer back to cultural understandings that white kids rarely get a chance to share. I guess "Mockingbird" is an example of a crossover? But mostly via media, not personal contact, I would guess. Azizi, have I got this right, or am I way off base? Bottom line is, perhaps, that the two imaginative worlds, black and white, may be blending more now (since schools and neighborhoods have attempted a degree of "desegregation," if you can call it that) than they used to. But they still refer back to the worldview of home life and play (largely segregated, to this time), and thus resist blending even when they meet on the playground or schoolyard. My apologies in advance if I have said anything injurious. Not intended! Or I may just have stated the obvious. But as someone who loves both kinds, I'm trying to understand this very interesting divide. Thanks to all for this discussion. Bob |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 13 Jun 06 - 12:34 PM I friend I had in college told her that when she was a kid, her gang called a cigarette a pomaramacigamarigatigget. |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: Azizi Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:04 PM Bob Coltman, Thanks for your comments. You wrote: "...we're looking at separate children's cultures here..." -snip- To a great extent I would agree with you- although cultures overlap at multiple significant and insignificant points. That said, I do think there are differences in the types of 'playground' rhymes that many African American & many European-American children prefer. You mentioned 'white kids assumnption of humor'. I'm not sure that 'humor' has a lot to do with most African American children's rhymes. In my opinion, most African American children's rhymes are vehicles to show off the child's skills in mastering handclapping routines, and foot stomping routines. Also, many of these rhymes are opportunities to perform-meaning "to play a role". And the roles that are most important to African American girls {who are the principle performers of these rhymes} are the 'tough and sexy' girl. In dramatizing these roles-complete with tough in-your-face attitude and hip shaking body movements-these girls are establishing their street credentials. This is not to say that all girls who recite "if you see me walkin down the street you better speak long time no see sexy as I wanna be some hittin me high some hittin me low some hittin me in my- don't ask what [what?] my b-u-t-t b-u-t-t butt-that's what" live in urban war zone type neighborhoods. They don't. But they are pretending to be hard because being tough & being sexy are the twin values that are promoted by urban Black culture and that is the dominant culture that influences most Black children. Rhymes that gross people out or rhymes that involve play on words don't have any place in establishing Black street credentials. I'm not sure if they have any place in establishing White street credential for that matter. Do some African American children recite gross out rhymes like gopher guts? I'm sure there are some. Are these rhymes more well known among White children. I believe so. **** Bob, I'm not sure I know the "Mockingbird" rhyme you mentioned in your post. Also, you mentioned "All Hid" and "Satisfied". Perhaps you are referring to the "All Hid" hide & go seek rhyme as found in Betty Jones & Bess Lomax Hawes' book "Step It Down". And perhaps the "Satisfied" you are referring to is the same chant that I recall reading in Harold Courlander's "Negro Folk Rhymes, USA". That rhyme is a vehicle to show off one's dance or handclapping prowess. Unfortunately, I'm sure neither of these rhymes are known among most urban {Northern} African American children. And I doubt that they are as well known in the South and other areas as "Rockin Robin" {also known as "Tweeleelee"} or "I Don't Want To Go To Mexico" or "Brickwall Water Fall". Thanks to the power of the movie industry, that last rhyme "Brick Wall Water Fall" has cut across a number of racial and geographical 'lines'. However, there are versions of that rhyme that are distinctly African American in text [and imo, that rhyme conforms to the standard rhyming structure of many contemporary Black children's rhymes]. If you are interested in reading different versions of that rhyme, click Here Btw, to some extent this discussion has gotten off the track of 'nonsense in childlore'. But I think it makes a lot of sense to be discussing it here. And I appreciate being part of the discussion. |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: Bonecruncher Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:15 PM Azizi You too old to be young? Never!! Like me, you are old enough to know better, young enough not to care! Colyn. |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: Azizi Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:51 PM Let the church say "Amen" to that! :0)) |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:57 PM Bertleman's "Children/Folklore" is buried (strata 6 years in a 20 year layer) or I would quote references.
AZIZI Thank you again for another LINK
I can easily...see the DT and Mudcat quickly flipping,clipping,slipping over into the a twine that binds the modern "Hip Hop" with origins to American Blues....if such a twist should occur...all but the "Emo's of England" would quickly become disenfranchised.
What I am hearing now.... white-performers (Garfunkle / Dylan / Elvis / Guthrey ) years ago incorporated into their music - it was a new-sound - yeilded return from those with alowances to spend. (Notice how Arlo is back on the circut....recycling hash from the restaurant to a younger generation?)
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: Azizi Date: 14 Jun 06 - 02:55 AM Greetings, Gargoyle! And thank you for your comments. One of the things that I love best about Mudcat is its internationalism. I look forward to these almost real time exchanges of cultural information & opinions with folks from all around the world. Sharing links to other websites that provide information, examples, and/or resources is what friends are for. Best wishes, Azizi |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: Mo the caller Date: 14 Jun 06 - 05:58 AM Thanks Azizi. I'm not sure if the Gargoyle has something against 'the "Emo's of England"' (should I be hurt? lol). I've been lurking and learning and enjoying the directions this thread is taking. |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: GUEST,Steve Parkes Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:12 AM Just a bit of (almost) irrelevant pedantry! English slang "scarper" (go, run away) comes from the Italian scapare, meaning much the same thing. Scapa Flo didn't become famous until WWI, but a lot of folks confuse the two: Scapa is pronounced "scapper" (short "a"), but you'll hear many say "Scarpa Flo". OK, back to the proper nonsense now! Steve |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: Bonecruncher Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:51 PM Thank you, GUEST Steve, for your pedantry. I had never heard your explanation until your post but it is totally logical. I have seen my version written about many times, sometimes with the spelling of "Scarpa Flow". As my old grandad used to say - "Believe nothing that you hear and only half of that which you see". Colyn. |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: Azizi Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:31 PM Steve & Colyn: I'm wondering if you think that the word Italian "scapare" could be the origin of the American word 'skedadalle" which is said to be the origin of the American phrase "23 skidoo". See this quote: Twenty-Three Skidoo (myth) One of the popular New York City myths is that the slang term "twenty-three skidoo" comes from the Flatiron Building at Twenty-Third Street and Broadway/Fifth Avenue. Tourist buses pass by this spot; they have to talk about something. The area has high winds, lifting women's skirts up. Allegedly, an Officer Kane told some naughty boys to "twenty-three skidoo" from the scene. Scram! Beat it! Go away! The problem here is that I've found an article about Chicago slang writer George Ade talking about "twenty-three" in 1899. The Flatiron Building was completed in 1902. One theory is that "23" is the number of the last victim in the then-popular play version of Charles Dickens's A Tale of Two Cities. "Skidoo" probably comes from "skedaddle," a term made popular during the Civil War. I have several articles that credit the vaudeville actor Billy Vann with combining the two slang terms into "twenty-three skidoo." No doubt, the slang phrase was popular. No doubt, it was used at 23rd Street. Twenty-three skidoo the 23rd Street slang origin theory." *** http://www.barrypopik.com/article/70/twenty-three-skidoo-myth -snip- Personally, scapare/skedadalle/skiddo theory sounds good to me. But I won't be offended if you tell me to 'hurry on down the road with my bad self'.* * Is that too much Black play on words for either of you? Naw. I don't think so. :0) |
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Subject: RE: Nonsense in childlore From: Azizi Date: 14 Jun 06 - 11:45 PM Then again, what Colyn's grand-dad said. |
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