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BS: Vichy France guilty - at last
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BS: Vichy France guilty - at last |
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Subject: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 07 Jun 06 - 06:18 AM Not before time: France fined for deporting Jews Too many European nations take comfort in regarding anti-semitism as a purely German thing, whereas it was virulent in France, Poland, Hungary etc (but seemingly not so much in Italy). Britain had already disposed of most of its Jews centuries earlier, but still there was strong support for Hitler in elements of the establishment. The late Queen Mother, then the queen, favoured Lord Halifax to succeed Chamberlain as PM because she knew Churchill would have no truck with Hitler. France's defence has always been that it had no option but to carry out Hitler's bidding. But I have read that during WW2 there were sometimes fewer than 3,000 German troops in France. I can't find a reference right now, but I'd be interested if anyone can provide information about the scale of the German occupation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: Paul Burke Date: 07 Jun 06 - 06:26 AM But are they going to fine them for discriminating against Muslims today- in the sneakiest, meanest way, by denying the kids education if they won't dress "right"? Some hope, Jews are (now) the goodies, Muslims the demons. "Britain had already disposed of most of its Jews centuries earlier", but had re- established them too. Britain had already had an ethnic Jew as prime minister by the end of the 19th century. That doesn't make the reluctance to admit European refugees anything but a disgrace of course- just as foot- dragging over modern refugees is a disgrace. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: John MacKenzie Date: 07 Jun 06 - 07:10 AM France is a secular society and the Yarmulke and the Crucifix are as banned as the Moslem headscarf. G |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: Peace Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:15 AM Denmark was occupied, too. When told they had to 'surrender' their Jewish population to the Nazi bastards, they basically told the Third Reich to stick it where the sun don't shine. They got most of their Jewish population out of Denmark. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: GUEST Date: 07 Jun 06 - 01:28 PM Speaking of the persecution of the Jews, I've wondered about this for some time. If it violates the Vichy/French Jews spirit of this thread, just disregard it. But it's disturbing: 100,000 RADIATIONS - A REVIEW In 1951, the director general of the Israeli Health Ministry, Dr. Chaim Sheba flew to America and returned with 7 x-ray machines, supplied to him by the American army. They were to be used in a mass atomic experiment with an entire generation of Sephardi youths to be used as guinea pigs. Every Sephardi child was to be given 35,000 times the maximum dose of x-rays through his head. For doing so, the American government paid the Israeli government 300,000 Israeli liras a year. The entire Health budget was 60,000 liras. The money paid by the Americans is equivalent to billions of dollars today. To fool the parents of the victims, the children were taken away on "school trips" and their parents were later told the x-rays were a treatment for the scourge of scalpal ringworm. 6,000 of the children died shortly after their doses were given... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 07 Jun 06 - 01:32 PM Precisely so, Giok. The headscarf thing is NOT discriminatory, and to compare that with the fate of French Jews borders on being offensive. In McQuaid's Ireland, a protestant was sacked because, as a librarian, she had been in a position to influence minds. I could almost go along with that, if such restrictions had applied to people of ALL faiths. (In McQuaid's Ireland? Fat chance!) NB: I said almost. *G* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: bobad Date: 07 Jun 06 - 04:17 PM In regards to the site referenced by GUEST: "His website once contained reprints from the white supremacist Spotlight magazine, known anti-Semitic forgeries such as the A Racial Program for the Twentieth Century, and Holocaust denial material reprinted from the Institute for Historical Review, which the journal History Teacher called "shockingly racist and anti-Semitic". (History Teacher, Vol 28, No.4, p 526)" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Rense |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: Wolfgang Date: 07 Jun 06 - 06:47 PM Peter, I don't have numbers at hand, but the 3,000 sound incredibly low. 850,000 was the number in 1944 expecting an invasion. It may have been the number of German soldiers in (small) Vichy France, but not in France as we understand it. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: GUEST Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:21 PM Thanks for the Wikipedia reference on the X-ray children. Here's what that pseudo-encyclopedia has to say about Dr. Chaim Sheba: From 1948 to 1951, he was the Surgeon General to the Israel Defense Forces and later became Director General of the Ministry of Health. In 1951, he participated on massive eugenic experiment, during which, 100,000 Israelic Sephardi children were involuntarily exposed to X-ray radiation 35,000 stronger than maximum allowed dose. Experiment was carried under false pretence of ringworm treatment. Victims of experiment became to be known as "the ringworm children". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Sheba Wikipedia is a waste of space. It's all over the map on every subject. Looks like this event really took place, though. Sad. Good news on the Vichy situation, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:43 PM I don't think anyone of us should assume that we'd have acted any better than the majority of ordinary people, whether under Nazi occupation, or as Germans who went along with the Nazis. It's right to honour the people who refused to collaborate, or to get swept up in a national madness, but we don't have any right to assume we'd have been amongst them in the circumstances. It may be right to criticise people for acting the way we very likely would have acted, amd it's definitely right to find out what actually happened, as a warning and an encouragement to us to oppose torture and imprisonment without trial and the rest of the Nazi repertoire, whenever we find our own countries drifting that way - but very few of us have any right to sneer or feel morally superior, because we haven't been tested. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: CarolC Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:55 PM I understand that this is a thread about atrocities committed against Jews in Europe. But I have noticed that the discussion has turned to whether or not the story about Israel's ringworm children is true. Just to help bring that particular sidetrack to a conclusion, this article describes a documentary film about the ringworm children that was made in Israel, and aired on Israeli television. http://web.israelinsider.com/views/3998.htm I'm sorry to say that my own country is just as culpable for that Hitleresque eugenics project as Israel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: Peace Date: 08 Jun 06 - 12:25 AM From: cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view.cgi?/ news/1999/11/02/sterilize991102 "Forced sterilization of mental patients Edmonton, Alberta March 21, 1928 "...the patient may safely be discharged if the danger of procreation with its attendant risk of multiplication of the evil by transmission of the disability to the progeny were eliminated, the board may direct ...sexual sterilization of the inmate..." Alberta passes the Sexual Sterilization Act. It provides for the forced sterilization of inmates in mental hospitals. Similar laws are enacted in other provinces, such as British Columbia. Want To Know More? See: Sexual Sterilization Act, S.A. 1928, c.37. Did you know? Sterilization of the "feeble-minded" is supported by leading women's rights figures such as Emily Murphy and Nellie McClung." ******************************************************* From extras.journalnow.com/againsttheirwill/ background/aparticlesbody.html Eugenics in the U.S. Nov. 16, 2002 Oregon governor plans apology for state sterilizations, victims' advocates say PORTLAND, Ore. -- Gov. John Kitzhaber plans to apologize next month to hundreds of Oregonians who were sterilized by the state, according to victims' advocates. A statement by Kitzhaber would make him the second governor, after Mark Warner of Virginia, to offer an official apology for his state's eugenics laws. A spokesman for Kitzhaber, however, stopped short of saying the governor will offer a formal apology. May 2, 2002 Virginia governor apologizes for forced sterilization under eugenics law CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va. -- Gov. Mark R. Warner apologized Thursday for Virginia's forced sterilization of thousands of people from 1924 to 1979, calling it "a shameful effort" that must never be repeated. Virginia conducted about 7,450 sterilizations under the banner of eugenics, or selective human breeding and social engineering. ... read more ****************************************************** Alberta's law was repealed in in 1972. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: Paul Burke Date: 08 Jun 06 - 03:40 AM The headscarf law was introduced to be discriminatory. It was aimed at Moslems, and the fact that it incidentally banned other religions' symbols was a side effect. They had, after all, been unworried about cricifixes and yarmulkas for many years before the Muslim panic. And since racism is the root of problem that led to the Shoah, you should be quick to recognise it. And racism is indivisible- you can't choose to be racist about one group without implicitly justifying it for any other group that someone else might choose. And of course banning headscarves is not the same as shipping thousands of people to Auschwitz. But if you don't recognise that the demonising of people was the lever used by the Nazis to gain power and to silence opposition, you are in danger of allowing other antihuman politicians to use that same lever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: Paco Rabanne Date: 08 Jun 06 - 05:03 AM Peter's original post is historically very significant. To harp on about muslim headscarves in the same thread is typical lawyer-ish obfuscation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: John MacKenzie Date: 08 Jun 06 - 05:17 AM In a secular society people are worried when someones allegiance to an outside influence such as religion, takes precedence over their loyalty to that country. When zealotry supercedes patriotism you have the recipe for revolution, and France has a history of civil unrest e.g., the storming of the Bastille. When you look at the readiness of the French to take to the streets at the slightest excuse, it is no wonder that the authorities are wary. This is a country that made a hero out of a man who demolished a McDonalds on the grounds that it was an insult to France's culinary traditions! Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: Peace Date: 08 Jun 06 - 11:27 AM France learned its 'cooking' from the Italians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: number 6 Date: 08 Jun 06 - 11:34 AM Those darned Italians. Which reminds me of a Fellini movie (Armacord) I once saw ...... sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: Grab Date: 08 Jun 06 - 02:08 PM CarolC, that film is not necessarily true. http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/310/6976/350/a I've tweaked Wikipedia accordingly, so that people aren't misled about this. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vichy France guilty - at last From: DougR Date: 08 Jun 06 - 08:09 PM You are right that most of us have not been tested, McGrath, but I damn well hope most of us would have had the courage to tell the Nazi to kiss off, or at least do everything in our power to help the Jews escape. DougR |
