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BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'?
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Subject: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: Art Thieme Date: 25 Jul 03 - 11:49 PM Heard a British fellow describing some of the Prime Minister's cohorts as "hugger muggers". Could someone explain. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: Padre Date: 26 Jul 03 - 12:00 AM Art, In my dictionary, the word means "sly or clandestine" - but the way it was used in the quote you gave makes me think it's some kind of footpad who would grab their victim while robbing them. Padre |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: GUEST,Tom Dowling Date: 26 Jul 03 - 12:46 AM I believe that 'hugger mugger' is one of those garbled Anglo-Indian loan words. I think such words, as a group or type, go under the heading of "Hobson-Jobson", itself a garbled Anglicization of what I recall being an ecstatic utterance in Arabic. I have forgotten the underlying Arabic words, but think they were a refrain or shout of an inspired nature. There is an entire dictionary of Hobson-Jobson and it makes for great reading. I would guess the underlying phrase to be from Hindi or a closely related language of the subcontinent of India. Tom D. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: katlaughing Date: 26 Jul 03 - 01:03 AM That is so interesting, Tom, thanks! Art, I don't see hugger-mugger in this online version of Hobson-Jobson, but it sure looks like fun to explore, anyway! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: GUEST Date: 26 Jul 03 - 01:17 AM From www.dictionary.com's Word of the Day archives: Word of the Day for Monday November 22, 1999 hugger-mugger, also huggermugger \HUGG-ur-MUGG-ur\, adjective: 1. Secret; clandestine; sly. 2. Confused; disorderly; slovenly; mean; as, hugger-mugger doings. I followed him to that hugger-mugger cabin he had hidden in the oaks on the other side of the swale and nipped behind the trees. --Roy Parvin, The Loneliest Road in America No hugger-mugger doings for me! --M. Robinson, Angelina I'd rather, ten times over, live hugger-mugger fashion, as we are now. --Frances Trollope In a kindly and polite yet very huggermugger cottage. --Thomas Carlyle, Reminiscences -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The origin of hugger-mugger is unknown; perhaps it is from Anglo-Irish cuggermugger, a whispering, a low-voiced gossiping, from Irish cogair, whisper!. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: Jeanie Date: 26 Jul 03 - 02:53 AM A wonderful word ! Also found in Hamlet, Act IV, Scene 5, line 85 : Claudius: ..... and we have done but greenly, In hugger-mugger to inter him - jeanie |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: The Walrus Date: 26 Jul 03 - 05:12 AM Halliwell (Dictonary of Archaic Words)has only "In secret, clandestinely." as a definition for Hugger-Mugger. I wonder if the "confused" definition is a cross over from 'Huggle-muggle'? Or, indeed, if the latter is a derivative of the former? Walrus |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: Jeanie Date: 26 Jul 03 - 06:48 AM Concise Oxford gives it as being "probably related" to Middle English hoder (=huddle) and mokere (=conceal), with related 15th c expressions: hoder moder and 16th c hucker mucker. The word 'huddle' is related to the verb 'to hide'. I may be back later with some Old English etymology, or even Proto-Germanic (is that a promise or a threat, I wonder ?) - jeanie |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: Allan C. Date: 26 Jul 03 - 10:27 AM I think it is also possible that one of the words may have little to do with the other in regard to origin. The English language - and especially its slang - is replete with double or connected words of similar sounds or syllabication, (called reduplication) some components of which have little meaning at all on their own and some that simply are fun to say because of the repeated sounds: flimflam, hubba hubba, tit for tat, fat cat, jingle-jangle, knickknack, pitter-patter, etc.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: Amos Date: 26 Jul 03 - 11:51 AM hugger-mugger SYLLABICATION: hug·ger-mug·ger PRONUNCIATION: hgr-mgr NOUN: 1. Disorderly confusion; muddle. 2. Secrecy; concealment. ADJECTIVE: 1. Disorderly; jumbled. 2. Secret; clandestine. VERB: Inflected forms: hug·ger-mug·gered, hug·ger-mug·ger·ing, hug·ger-mug·gers TRANSITIVE VERB: To keep secret; conceal. INTRANSITIVE VERB: To act in a secretive manner. ETYMOLOGY: Origin unknown. OTHER FORMS: hugger-mugger —ADVERB hugger-mugger·y —NOUN ..from American Heritage. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 26 Jul 03 - 12:11 PM Down here in Bubbaland, "hugger mugger" is sometimes used as a socially acceptable substitute for "motherfucker" when in mixed company. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Jul 03 - 01:15 PM I'd think of "hugger-mugger" would refer to a situation where a bunch of people are having to rub along in a confined setting: In that litle dark engine room, Where the chill seeps through your soul, How we huddled round that little pot stove That burned oily rags and coal. That's living hugger-mugger. But I suspect in that quote about Tony Blair's colleagues it doesn't mean that at all. I'd say the word has been hi-jacked to mean the kind of people who would hug you close, so as to stab you in the back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: GUEST,Q Date: 26 Jul 03 - 01:27 PM It is always best to go to the authority on the English language, the OED, for origins annd usages. The OED has a nice mini-essay on the word(s). Many spellings through time- hoker-moker, huckermucker, hug(g)ermug(g)er, hockermocker (all with or without the -, sometimes just one element of the term. "This is the commonest of a group of reduplicated words of parallel forms and nearly synonymous meaning including huldermulder, Scottish hudge mudge, and obsolete holy moke. Nothing definite appears as to their derivation or origin, and it is not unlikely that they came from different sources, and influenced each other. Ab early form, more usual in 16th c., was hucker mucker (hoker moker) the second element of which may have been the Middle English vb mukre, mokere-n, to hoard up, conceal, whence mukere, mockerere hoarder, miser (see sense 1b). Whether hucker had an independent existence ... or was merely a timing variation, cannot at present be determined. The change to hugger mugger was phonetically easy and natural, but may have been helped by the influence of hudder mudder, which was apparently of different origin. " A sb 1. concealment, secrecy, (esp. in phrase hugger mugger; in secret, clandestinely. Formerly in ordinary literary use, now archaic or vulgar. 1529, Thomas More, Dyaloge: "He wolde haue hys faythe dyuulged and spedde abrode openly, not alwaye whyspered in hukermoker". Examples down to 1874, "The trial was all mystery, hugger-mugger, horror." b. one who keeps things secret, a hoarder, a miser. Example from 1862 (but see the discussion above), Trollope: "Nor is the New Yorker a hugger mugger with his money. He does not hide up his dollars in old stockings ...." 2. Disorder, confusion; a medley, a muddle. 1674, Fairfax: "An huggermugger of meddlesome beings all at jars." B. adjective. 1. Secret; quotes from 1692. 2. Rough and disorderly, confused, makeshift. 1840, Trollope, the earliest quotation offered. "Hugger-mugger they lived..." Hugger-mugger, verb. To keep secret or concealed, to procede in secret, to go in a confused or muddled way. (Does anyone remember the comic mystery writer, Elliot Paul, and his "Hugger-Mugger at the Louvre"?). He also wrote the nostalgic "The Last Time I Saw Paris." (book, not song) |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Jul 03 - 01:27 PM Actually sounds more like a pickpocket to me. Guy gives you a big hug to distract you while lifting your wallet. If he decided he actually enjoyed the hug and also decided to have sex with you he might be a hugger mugger fugger. If this happened at a Rugby match, he'd be a hugger mugger rugger fugger. And if the sex got a little perverse he'd be a hugger mugger rugger fugger bugger. And if he really enjoyed it and tried to drag you back home for more he'd be a hugger mugger rugger fugger bugger tugger. ......help me.........Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Jul 03 - 01:46 PM Of course he might be a sailor, in which case he could be a lugger hugger mugger rugger fugger bugger tugger. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: Amos Date: 26 Jul 03 - 01:46 PM I think Spaw needs a lugger... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Jul 03 - 01:51 PM And if he was a pugilistic sailor he'd be a slugger lugger hugger mugger rugger fugger bugger tugger. Y'all ain't helping..... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: Amos Date: 26 Jul 03 - 05:50 PM And if he kept it up too long he'd be widely known as the slugger lugger hugger mugger rugger fugger bugger tugger plugger. Keep it up, Pat -- you're on a roll, or at least a slice of Wonder bread.... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 26 Jul 03 - 06:48 PM Guest Q: Re "He wolde haue hys faythe dyuulged and spedde abrode openly, not alwaye whyspered in hukermoker". Surely you meant spredde, not spedde. Thanks for the archaic English. How often does one get to read this stuff? ----------- I have known the word huggermugger for many years, and it's alway meant secret or sneaky. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: katlaughing Date: 26 Jul 03 - 07:06 PM And on Mudcat we've got 'nudder Mudders! If he was really into hip music he'd be a dugger slugger lugger hugger mugger rugger fugger bugger tugger plugger. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Jul 03 - 07:20 PM ENOUGH!!!!Let's just let this guy go huh? We'll let the poor slob off the hook and send him to a beer party hosted by a bum with an artificial leg where he can be a dugger slugger lugger hugger mugger rugger fugger bugger tugger plugger at a pegger legger beggar kegger.Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: Art Thieme Date: 26 Jul 03 - 07:26 PM And maybe the refrain from the great blues/barrelhouse piano song called "THE DIRTY DOZENS"... He's a dirty hugger-mugger, don'cha know, He's a dirty hugger mugger, don'cha know, ... Art ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: GUEST,Tom Dowling Date: 27 Jul 03 - 01:44 AM Well, so much for the speculation on my part that hugger mugger was an example of Hobson-Jobson (earlier on in this thread). That guess is on shaky grounds in light of, among other things, the appearance of the term in Hamlet and the probable Anglo-Irish or other non-Indic origins of the term. In any event, I was wrong. However, my thanks to katlaughing for providing the URL of the on-line version of the Hobson-Jobson dictionary. I had not looked at it in years, having lost mine in a building collapse in 1975! One of these days I will actually contribute a small nugget to this message board! Tom D. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: GUEST,Q Date: 27 Jul 03 - 10:11 PM Right, leeana, spredde it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 28 Jul 03 - 09:12 AM Thanks for clearing that up, Guest Q. Thousands of Mudcatters around the globe are wiping their brows with relief. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is a 'hugger mugger'? From: Mrs.Duck Date: 28 Jul 03 - 01:05 PM Firecat is a hugger mugger! EVERYTIME YOU GO NEAR HER SHE MUGS YOU FOR A HUG!! (oops ) didn't mean to shout. |
