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BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy???
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Subject: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jul 03 - 04:12 PM The networks are now reporting that unnamed US officials are claiming to have torched the Ace of Hearts and Ace of Clubs (alias Qusay and Uday Hussein, Sadam's sons) in Mosul, a town in Kurdish controlled northern Iraq. The remains of the four bodies recovered will be shipped to the US for DNA identification by U.S. Armed Forces Institute of Pathology in Washington, the official said. A "special military task force" hunting for Sadam & Sons, which apparently included 200 members of the 101st Airborne, supported by extensive armor and air cover, just couldn't find a way to take the four people inside the house alive. They were conveniently charred beyond recognition. CNN reports: "Officials haven't confirmed their deaths, but one U.S. official told CNN: "We are reasonably certain they could have met their maker." And the timing couldn't be better for a Bush-spin in the news cycle, what with the homecoming of the Heroically Fragile Female POW, Pvt Lynch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Ebbie Date: 22 Jul 03 - 04:22 PM Yahoo/Reuters: "We are certain that Odai and Qusai were killed today," said Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez at a news conference in Baghdad. "They died in a fierce gunbattle," Sanchez added. "He told reporters that soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division were working on a tip from an Iraqi informant that the sons were present in the house. "When troops approached the building, gunmen inside opened fire with small arms. The "suspects barricaded themselves in the house" and "resisted fiercely," he said. Sanchez promised a detailed briefing on the operation Wednesday. "The bodies were in such a condition where you could identify them," he said. The identities of the other two dead were not known, he said." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Gareth Date: 22 Jul 03 - 04:23 PM Well thats easy to confound. Just produce the real sons of Saddam, Oh ? you can't ? Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jul 03 - 04:30 PM From The Guardian website: "A US military spokesman speaking on the record described the four dead as being of "high interest". The house belonged to a cousin of Saddam, who was a key tribal leader in the region. Witnesses said people inside the house fired at the US troops as they approached. In response, they called in helicopters to subdue the resistance before storming the building. The house, a large villa, was badly damaged, and its roof caved in after an apparent missile strike. "Individuals of very high interest to the coalition forces were hiding out in the building," according to Lieutenant Colonel William Bishop of the 101st Airborne division. "This morning we went to the building and surrounded it, and detained several of these high-interest personalities," he told Reuters. An official in Washington said the bodies were not in the best condition but bore "a strong resemblance" to Uday and Qusay. A third body was that of a teenage boy - Qusay has a 14-year-old son who travels with him - and the fourth was that of an adult believed to have been a possible bodyguard, the official said." But the White House refuses to confirm the identities at this time, according to CNN. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jul 03 - 04:45 PM And this is how the Washington Post says the identification of the bodies was confirmed: "But an intelligence official in Washington said that tentative identification was made when the bodies were shown to several Iraqis who have been detained by U.S. forces and who told U.S. military officials that they were Hussein's sons." The "tip" about who was in the villa is said to have come from "a walk-in Iraqi informant" last night. Considering that the claim is being made that the villa was owned by a cousin of Sadam's, it does beg the question why it took the US military so damn long to find it. No intelligence problems regarding Iraq and the Hussein regime on our side, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Bev and Jerry Date: 22 Jul 03 - 05:50 PM We have samples of Odai and Qusai's DNA for comparison? Bev and Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: rangeroger Date: 22 Jul 03 - 06:59 PM It was a four-hour gunbattle not a "torching". rr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Bobert Date: 22 Jul 03 - 07:30 PM Well, I just watched the reports on the news which consumed the first 15 minutes of a half hour show... Yeah, Bush has told the networks to pump this one up big time in the hopes of taking some of the pressure off him and his administration of liars. A big ol' diversion, if ya ask me. How convient! And the news folks say that with the killing of these two guys, a 14 year old boy and a body guard, that all is well now in Iraq and everyong will "live happily ever after". Wrong. Nothing has changed. Blair and Bush lied through their teeth to whip the masses up into a feeding frenzy and nothing is going to change either that ot the fact that now people who supported them... want answers. The killing ofa couple more Iraqi's have nothing to do with the questions... How many Catfolk feel safer tonight? Can I get a show of hands? Well, sure, these guys were probably some pretty bad fellers. The world is full of pretty bad fellers. Many of them recieve foriegn aid from us... Go figure... Beam me up... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Wolfgang Date: 23 Jul 03 - 04:57 AM How many Catfolk feel safer tonight? What an interesting way to ask a wrong question. How many people in Iraq feel safer now, would be the right question. Obviously many, according to their reaction when hearing the news. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: GUEST Date: 23 Jul 03 - 03:47 PM Actually Wolfgang, I don't know how the news of the deaths is being reported in Germany, but in the US, the reports I saw on the mainstream TV news last night showed that "to a man" (as the reporter said on ABC's Primetime, the Iraqi's they interviewed on the street said they didn't believe the American's reports that the sons had been killed. They said they would have to have incontrovertible proof that those killed were actually who the Americans were claiming they were. While most Iraqi's likely would/will be relieved to hear that these two murderers are in fact dead, the fact that they aren't willing to accept the announcement from the Americans without proof doesn't bode well for the occupying forces and nation building. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: artbrooks Date: 23 Jul 03 - 04:36 PM I don't know of any reason why statements made by ABC News should have any more credibility than those made by Al Jazeera or the Bush Whitehouse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: GUEST Date: 23 Jul 03 - 04:43 PM They don't. I merely used the statement as one example of all the reports I heard on last night's news. When a big story breaks, I channel surf, to see if anyone's spin differs from one channel to the next. Once the "official line" is laid down, the story becomes identical from all the news outlets. But in the early hours of a breaking story, you can often hear bits and pieces that get edited out in later official versions. I heard repeatedly that the Iraqi people being interviewed by US journalists about the death of Saddam's sons, weren't yet believing the reports of their deaths, and wouldn't, until they had some very compelling proof. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Jul 03 - 05:28 PM All this hoopla on the News kind of reminds me of the gunning down of people such as Ma Barker, Dillinger, Bonnie & Clyde, Baby-Face Nelson, Pretty Boy Floyd, and so on, but I doubt that it will be remembered nearly as long...except in Iraq. It does prove one thing: It's dangerous to be on the Empire's hitlist, specially if you are numbered among its former hatchetmen and surrogates. Better to be a total independent like Castro or Ho Chi Minh. But, hell, I already knew that. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jul 03 - 05:51 PM ...bore "a strong resemblance" to Uday and Qusay. That is not exactly strong evidence, in the light of all the stuff we've been told about all the doubles Saddam and his family deployed. Was anyone able to identify the dead child? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Bill D Date: 23 Jul 03 - 09:07 PM Uday's 14 yr. old son, they say |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: LadyJean Date: 23 Jul 03 - 11:48 PM I used to hear stories that Hitler was still alive. There was some discussion on Mudcat about whether Pat Garrett really killed Billy the Kid. In short, there are always stories that dead people aren't really dead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: GUEST,Whistle Stop Date: 24 Jul 03 - 08:18 AM You know, this thread is an example of why I rarely visit Mudcat these days; the opinions exporessed here are so unbalanced that it's pretty hard to take a lot of you folks seriously. Yes, there are a lot of legitimate questions that can be raised about how the Bush and Blair administrations have handled the Iraq situation, and there is certainly plenty of room for disagreement on particular strategic and tactical decisions that have been made in the prosecution of this war. But it's pretty apparent that we got the right guys this time, and that they deserved to die. Would it have been nice to take them alive? Sure. Was it worth putting American troops at greater risk in order to do that? Absolutely not. As for the complaints about the use of overwhelming force, this isn't about catering to anyone's notions of a "fair fight". When we're in a shooting situation, I want all the advantages to be with the good guys. Legitimate disagreements notwithstanding, is anyone claiming that Uday and Qusay were the good guys? If any of you wants to write a folk song portraying these two as heroes, you have the right to do so. But as far as I'm concerned, that's an abuse of whatever talents you have. They were evil people, and I'm glad they're dead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Rapparee Date: 24 Jul 03 - 08:39 AM Speaking as a former Infantryman, the sort of guy who would have had to go in a get them: strafe it, flatten it with TOW missiles, artillery, tanks, B-52s, and then napalm it. I want everyone inside as dead as possible if they are or might be shooting at ME. A non-Iraqi who lost his legs fighting the Coalition forces early in the war wept as he said, "The Americans are cowards. They fight with tanks, with planes, and never come out and fight man-to-man." Welcome, dude, to modern warfare! We put a value on our troops and try not to waste them. I think that the folks inside were Saddam's sons. Given what I've heard of them from the US and other press sources, their passing is no loss to the world and I'm just sorry that the Iraqis themselves failed in their earlier assassination attempts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Teribus Date: 24 Jul 03 - 09:11 AM Seems pretty conclusive, dental records, X-Rays, visual identification by former associates - even the early BBC reports stated that the bodies were capable of visual identification. The decision has also been taken to publish photographic evidence showing the bodies in the Iraqi Press in order to convince the Iraqi population. The operation was undertaken to ensure minimal risk exposure to the US forces involved - that seems totally sensible to me. The people in Iraq will shortly have visible proof that there will be no "dynastic" continuation, irrespective of what happens to Saddam. As for Saddam himself, and for those aiding him at present, the net can only now have got tighter. At worst, they must assume that some information might be gleaned from the villa in which his sons were hiding, and accordingly they will have to alter their plans and shift "safe" locations. With that disruption to their plans comes the inherant risks of betrayal. He can run and hide as best he can - but it only is a matter of time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Stu Date: 24 Jul 03 - 09:31 AM Whistle Stop said: "opinions exporessed(sic) here are so unbalanced that it's pretty hard to take a lot of you folks seriously". Not unbalanced WS - just different to yours, worth no more or less that your own. I can't remember who said "I have nothing but respect for the men who fight wars, nothing but contempt for those who start them" (possibly a paraphrase!), but I agree totally. The real question is - who sent those men there, and for what reason? Why is any soldier put into that situation? After all - his life is no less valuable than anyone elses, and he will want to defend himself. The problem with overwhelming force is that however clever your targeting systems, you will kill innocent people. Though we like to think of ourselves as above the sort of atrocity that sees the general population get hurt, the reality of war is we are not above that at all. Missles in the market place, an A-10 Tankbuster attacking a group of children playing in the street etc. etc. However, it has to be accepted that in war innocent people will suffer and die in a horrible and painful manner through no fault of their own. If you that's it's a price worth paying, then you're wrong. Welcome dude, to modern warfare! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: GUEST,An embarrassed ex soldier Date: 24 Jul 03 - 10:04 AM Why do the yanks have the right to just go in and kill everyone. That is murder. Its not there country that they have invaded.It's a war, sorry the wars over(according to the president). They arent fighting anymore according to the bush. So can any one justify it really. OK they are bad men or possibly wre bad men. So are messers bush and blair but will they get shot no. Mr Mugabe is a really bad man in my opinion when will he get put down like a dog. There is still no proof of anything apart from saddam being a shit to his people and not giving in to american demands. But hey who cares as long as the americans keep killing people then it doesnt matter what you think does it because your country could be next. As a former soldier myself it sickens me to think that people are out there from more than just america are dying. Lies and spin always win but its you and I who end up giving more than the politicians ever will for their crap stories and excuses to train the troops. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: GUEST Date: 24 Jul 03 - 10:52 AM Whistlestop, Sources of rumours of war are just as often our military commanders and soliders in the field, as "our enemy", as many of us learned in the Vietnam War. US military commanders routinely lied about body counts, etc. in order to make themselves look good to brass back in DC, when the reality on the ground was the war was going very badly. The report of these deaths came at a time when the war against the Iraqi people is going very badly. The morale of the US troops is very low just now for a lot of reasons. One is they aren't getting the rotation out they were promised. Another is, they aren't being treated as liberators, as the Bush administration and the military culture promised, but as oppressive occupiers, which makes them very unsafe and vulnerable to constant attacks in circumstances they thought they would be safe in once the major battles ended. There is also quite a bit of grumbling about feeling they were sold a bill of goods about the mission in Iraq by the Bush and Blair administrations, now that they too are getting the news about the fanciful intelligence reports about WMDs, which was the justification from both administrations, to go to war. Many feel betrayed by that deception. To not be sceptical of reports like this, where only the US military "verifies and confirms" the identities of the bodies they have on ice at the Baghdad airport, is to live with one's head in the sand. With ears plugged singing "la la la la la" at the top of one's voice. Considering the history of deception by the US military and the political leaders of the country in war time, now well known and documented documented from the Vietnam War, it is just plain idiotic not to view this sort of information which is impossible to be independently verified, at face value. Bush and Blair really needed this kind of a news story, to show that they were right about going to war, even though they lied to get us into it. The news of the deaths comes at a time when both the Bush and Blair administrations are desperately trying to regain control of the news spin over Iraq (especially in the wake of devastating revelations about them misleading the public about the evidence for going to war and sending our troops into this quagmire). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Dave Bryant Date: 24 Jul 03 - 11:18 AM The house belonged to a cousin of Saddam, who was a key tribal leader in the region. According to areport which I have just read, the house belonged to Sheik Nawal Al-Zaydan, who was imprisoned by Sadam for "claiming to be a distant cousin of the dictator in order to gain greater prestige". It also claims that he's getting a reward of £20,000,000. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: NicoleC Date: 24 Jul 03 - 11:33 AM Really, we got the "right guys"? What about the OTHER people who died in the process? If I kill your children, but claim that it was okay because I only *meant* to kill the serial killer standing nearby, will you be happy? Or will you just think I murdered your children? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Wolfgang Date: 24 Jul 03 - 11:34 AM We have samples of Odai and Qusai's DNA for comparison? (Bev and Jerry) Probably not but that isn't really necessary here for a successfull DNA analysis. For they can have the DNA of a captured half-brother of Saddam. A comparison made this way is somewhat less sure than a comparison with the DNA from the brothers themselves but a corroboration found this way is still quite close to certain. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Teribus Date: 24 Jul 03 - 12:05 PM Hating to state the obvious NicoleC, but these "guys" could have surrendered, the instant the house was surrounded - Yes? Instead they chose to fight it out - once that fight started the responsibility of the those in command of the US forces present was to ensure minimum risk of injury, or death, of his own men. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Lepus Rex Date: 24 Jul 03 - 12:11 PM What NicoleC said. Oh, and they've just released the photos they claim are of the Hussein boys' corpses. Check you favourite news site, if you care to see them. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: NicoleC Date: 24 Jul 03 - 12:12 PM We don't know that they had the chance to surrender, Teribus. And given the mysterious disappearances of prisoners in Afghanistan (true or simply rumored) it would surprise me if they believed that they would be dead if they surrendered anyway. IF it *is* true that they had the choice to surrender, did the child in the house who died have a say in that decision? You may blame the purported sons of Saddam, but I wonder if you would think it was okay to kill all the hostages in a bank to just get the bank robbers? Blow up an office building because there's a sniper on the roof? Unfortunately, so many people seem to think these actions are acceptable as long as we are talking about foreigners, but utterly unacceptable in your own neighborhood. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: mg Date: 24 Jul 03 - 12:37 PM Yes in our own neighborhood. And yes they had a chance to surrender...and undoubtedly to send the teenager out if they chose to fight to the finish...there are situations, and God help us if we don't understand this, that in order to save hundreds of thousands of lives we have to take 5. Do we not understand what these men were? People who dipped their subjects into acid. Who raped women at their own weddings. Who would have killed thousands more and terrified millions more on their attempts back into power. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: GUEST Date: 24 Jul 03 - 12:49 PM Mary Garvey, you are just the kind of person the fear mongerers love to target with their propaganda campaigns. Because there is ample documentation of the horrors of the Hussein regime, does not mean that the US military has killed Saddam's sons. The world has no way of independently verifying the identity of these mutilated bodies, because only the US government has control of the bodies, and the so-called evidence (x-rays and dental records) being used to identify them. Now, if the US would like to turn the bodies and the evidence over to a neutral, disinterested third party to confirm it, I'd be happy to believe the reports. But I'm with the Iraqi people on this one. I ain't buyin' the reports until I get independent confirmation from sources who can be trusted. The US and British governments are not sources to be trusted. If you want to talk bad guys, go to the Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch website. How come you, the Bushites and the Blairites aren't up in arms about all those bad guys all over the world, hmmmm? Could it be because the millions of human beings suffering and dying from torture around the world at the hands of the bad guys doesn't serve the imperial Anglo American interests of securing the world's oil fields for their own purposes? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Lepus Rex Date: 24 Jul 03 - 12:58 PM Yeah, GUEST, mere photos don't really impress me, either. They spirit the corpses out of the country, release statements by former Iraqi govt. officials (who just happen to be in US custody) that, yes, that's Saddam's boys, then release poor-quality photos that almost everyone I know could alter in under 10 minutes to look like Uday, Kusay, or my mom. Yeah, this'll convince the Iraqi people. Like Wolfowitz said the other day, "people in the middle east will believe anything. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: GUEST,mg Date: 24 Jul 03 - 01:02 PM Idiot guest..no one has to fear monger me. I know enough how bad the world is and yes, I would take out tyrant after tyrant if I could, regardless of their supplies of oil, rice, oranges or emeralds. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Teribus Date: 24 Jul 03 - 01:15 PM Lepus, As mere photgraphs don't impress you - you may posibly be convinced, like DG, that this is all an Anglo-American deception when the lads appear next in public. But I wouldn't advise you to hold your breath until they do - or maybe you should, seeing as you are so convinced. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Wolfgang Date: 24 Jul 03 - 01:19 PM Dubai-based al-Arabiya television aired a tape of a masked man, claiming to be from Fedayeen Saddam, which Uday had run, saying: "We pledge to you Iraqi people that we will continue in the jihad against the infidels. The killing of Uday and Qusay will be avenged. "The killing of Uday and Qusay will not decrease the attacks against the Americans but rather increase them," the speaker said. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Lepus Rex Date: 24 Jul 03 - 01:26 PM I didn't say that they aren't dead, Teribus---I think it's likely that they are. My point was that without any solid proof or even evidence, how could anyone be so naïve as to belive that they are? And to think that the Iraqi people are so idiotic as to be convinced by a couple of poorly-lit photos is almost racist, as if these are half-witted savages out of some shitty 19th century novel. These are, for the most part, modern, savvy, intelligent people. "Yes, we shoot bad men with THUNDER STICKS, and then use MAGIC PAPER to capture their souls! Behold!" Fucking please. Show these people some respect. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: GUEST Date: 24 Jul 03 - 01:38 PM Amen to that Lepus Rex. Wolfgang, are we supposed to be convinced that because anti-American extremists have taken to the airwaves to exploit anti-American sentiment in the wake of the announcement of the death of Saddam's sons, that they are actually a barometer of truth we are to believe, because their exploitation of an American news story about the Hussein regime conveniently fits with the American news story? Don't insult my intelligence, or as Lepus said, the intelligence of the Iraqi people. No one wants the Hussein sons dead more than most Iraqis. But that doesn't make reports from the US military commanders in the field, who are busy making big claims and offering scant evidence to support them, true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jul 03 - 01:48 PM "...they deserved to die". It appears from the media that after the rest of them were killed, the 14 year old, said to be Mustafa, Saddamn's grandson, kept firing and was the last to die. Might have been an idea to keep under cover till he'd run out of ammunition. What was the hurry? Or was there a press deadline to make? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Wolfgang Date: 24 Jul 03 - 02:34 PM GUEST, I was only making fun of your pathetic statement I'm with the Iraqi people on this one. With whom of them I laughed when reading that. As if 'the Iraqi people' was one monolithic block unable to have differing opinions and dissent among them. The racist approach 'have you seen (heard) one of them then you know all of them' is not to my liking. Good question (what was the hurry, I mean), McGrath. A British reporter asked something similar at a US press conference and did not get a response. I wonder too. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: artbrooks Date: 24 Jul 03 - 03:38 PM Well, I guess they could have shot a few more TOW missles in to make sure everyone was dead...and then follow that up with a couple of small bombs and an AC-130 gunship. I'd bet that the medics were right behind the lead troops, to render first aid to any survivors, and Saddam's grandson would still be alive if he hadn't kept (or maybe started) shooting. Believe me, bullets have no identifying characteristics that would tell a soldier who is shooting at him. A 14-year-old is a child by Western standards, but not necessarily by anyone else's. Come to think of it, how old were the "children" that perpetrated the Columbine massacre? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Lepus Rex Date: 24 Jul 03 - 03:45 PM "A 14-year-old is a child by Western standards, but not necessarily by anyone else's..." Hmm, you could also use that argument to justify, say, child prostitution in SE Asia. Oh, those wacky savages! ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: artbrooks Date: 24 Jul 03 - 04:41 PM I really don't think you can use any argument to justify prostitution anywhere...or at least I can't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Lepus Rex Date: 24 Jul 03 - 04:54 PM But you can use the same argument, that those kids aren't the same as our kids, to justify the murder of a 14-year-old child? It's ok to kill Iraqi kids, because it's not like they're real kids? By the way, do you even know any Iraqi children? ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: artbrooks Date: 24 Jul 03 - 04:58 PM Sorry, but the death of a person firing a weapon is not murder. Ask any police officer. And yes, I do...do you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jul 03 - 05:11 PM So why didn't they sit back and wait it out, at any rate once it became clear there was only one person still firing? From reports I've seen some 200 US troops were involved in tis operation, and not a single wound among them, in what was described as "a fierce gun battle". Here is the Guardian story The last moments of Saddam's grandson. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: GUEST Date: 24 Jul 03 - 05:18 PM Murder? Leaping lizards Lepus Rex. You'd be hard pressed to find any legal experts who'd consider it murder to kill a 14-year-old who is firing at you with an automatic weapon. Of course, the fact that this particular 14-year-old is the son of a mass murderer of thousands and the grandson of a mass murderer of hundreds of thousands, irrelevant when one considers that he kept shooting rather than surrender. It's moments like this that I'm glad the Lepus Rexes of this world are confined to talking amongst themselves on websites. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: artbrooks Date: 24 Jul 03 - 05:20 PM According to the cited Guardian story, 4 US troops were wounded and evacuated; the extent of their injuries is not given. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Rapparee Date: 24 Jul 03 - 05:21 PM I'm going to weigh in on the side of Art. If you pick up a gun and shoot, if you throw an armed grenade, your age is irrelevant. If I'm a soldier (or policeman) and you're trying to kill me, I'm going to shoot you without regard to race, religion, color, creed, age, sex, sexual orientation, nations origin, handicap, or anything else. It can be argued that "childhood" is a product of the Victorian middle class. Children -- and I mean kids as young as eight -- have been and are used as soldiers by forces in various places in Africa, Asia, and South America. Brainwashed? Street kids picked up by cynical adults and treated decently so they can die for a cause? It's not a new thing, either. There was the Hitlerjugend, and records show enlistments in the American Revolution as young as 12. How old was the "Drummer Boy of Shiloh" in the American Civil War? How old were the "powder monkeys" on the ships of the US and other nations? If it comes down to me and you, I'd rather it was you. I mean an awful lot to me and I'm sure I'll miss me when I'm gone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: NicoleC Date: 24 Jul 03 - 05:45 PM I wasn't just referring to one 14 year old kid in the 'compound,' Art, as he's not the only child to die. My beef is this 'oh they are so evil and they deserve it no matter who else gets in the way' attitude. It's BS, and it's *exactly* the same attitude that is used to justify terrorist attacks. The same folks who are gloating over deaths in Iraq were horrified at the brutality 9/11. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: GUEST Date: 24 Jul 03 - 05:46 PM From reports I've seen some 200 US troops were involved in tis operation, and not a single wound among them, in what was described as "a fierce gun battle". Here is the Guardian story McGrath, do you make this stuff up? Oh, I suppose you could say that, technically, McGrath is right in his misleading statement. There was not a "single" wound among the US troops. There were "four" soldiers wounded by Qusay, Uday and gun-shooting Mustafa. Perhaps, McGrath, you might want to actually read the article before posting the link. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: GUEST Date: 24 Jul 03 - 06:04 PM Wolfgang, nice try playing the race card, but it won't work. If I am guilty of anything, it is generalizing by using the phrase "the Iraqi people" (which gave you such a rip snorting good laugh--perhaps you are too easily amused). Referring to the NATIONALITY of a people, which is not equatable with the race of a people. A good dictionary might help you get your biases sorted out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jul 03 - 06:09 PM My mistake - but that bit wasn't in the newspaper edition I had, and I didn't check the updated online version. Interesting though that it appears the US soldiers were wounded while they seem to have still thought it was just a routine house inspection, knocking on the door and all, rather than during the subsequent gun battle when it became clear it wasn't. The other point is that the triumphalism about this is misplaced - what was needed was to catch Saddam's sons and put them on trial in Iraq. Killing them in a situation like this was a kind of defeat. Far better live criminals in a cell than "a heroic death in battle" as it is bound to be presented, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Gareth Date: 24 Jul 03 - 07:37 PM Kevin, better that they were caputured, interogated, and put on trial, but a question I will ask, in the circumstances would it have been feasable ? And how many US casualties would you have deemed aceptable to do so ? Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: Teribus Date: 25 Jul 03 - 05:11 AM MGoH, "So why didn't they sit back and wait it out," Caesar - Vercingetorix - Siege of Alesia, 52 BC. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jul 03 - 10:07 AM The Siege of Alesia was a rather bigger operation, involving hundreds of thousands of troops. I suppose Teribus means that in an extended siege the besiegers could get surrounded, so you have a siege within a siege. But the circumstances were rather different, with a very sizeable undefeated Gaullish army ready to try to break the siege. This was a house siege, essentially no different from the kind of situation the police have to deal with - except that in this case there was no problem about there being any hostages on the house who might be in greater danger if things dragged on. Obviously the possibility of the people in the house having friends outside has to be taken into account in such circumstances. However the assault on the house did not in fact prevent further killings of US soldiers subsequently, and there is no reason to think the death of Saddam's children (and grandson) will do anything to stop that continuing adn escalating. In fact it has been plausibly suggested that, as Iraqis get more confident that there is no danger of a return of Saddam, this in itself might remove a factor that could inhibit opponents of Saddam from carrying out attacks on the occupying forces. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: PeteBoom Date: 25 Jul 03 - 10:23 AM Sooner or later it will dawn on some folks that, just as in Afganistan, the one thing that unites the "opposition" is the common enemy. Once that is gone, their need to cooperate is gone and they become rivals in the bid for gaining power. Democracy and democratic ideals don't happen by waving a magic wand. Having said that, the supporters of the invasion use the oft-cited WMD as a justification, along with the minor detail that the country was ruled by an absolute dictator who had potential rivals killed and committed terrible attrocities and crimes against humanity. Why, look at all the mass graves found and the hundreds of Iraqis that died each day. Fine. Using that criteria... Next on the list: Liberia (along with a fair number of Central and West African countries); Indonesia; Saudi Arabia; Sudan (yeah, we tried once, but that was Clinton's fault it failed, must have been); Cuba; a fair chunk of South America; Korea(both of them)...and more besides. Sigh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: GUEST Date: 25 Jul 03 - 10:32 AM So much of this could easily be avoided if the US would just be open, honest, and fair about it's national security interests, and tell the world how it will conduct itself in the world when other nations' security interests are at risk. If the US was willing to work on an international level in this regard through the UN or some new international agency of peace and security, the entire world would be much more peaceful, just, fair, and equatable, and many billions more people could have a basic standard of living guaranteed them, so they could stop adding to the population of the planet just to survive. All those things really could occur if we as a nation were willing to tamper our greed and fear that someone is going to take what we have away from us, even a little, and realize that using violence to keep what we've got will only bring more and more violence back to us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Aces Wild or What WMD controversy??? From: GUEST,hmmmmmmm Date: 30 Dec 03 - 07:13 PM |
