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classification/music/Iraq/rethink???
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Subject: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: greg stephens Date: 15 Apr 03 - 07:18 PM I think the decision to divide Mudcat into BS/ non BS was driven by an understandable reaction to mono-topic domination of the airwaves. I didnt like that decision, as I've said before, because I think it was culturally divisive, separating people and ideas into above the salt/below the salt. I was in a minority, I accept that. But I think that obsession is now starting to die away, for obvious reasons. Am I still in a minority? I like my music mixed with signs of spring/birthday greetings/silly etymology/cornish pasty recipes...yes, and even opinions about Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: wysiwyg Date: 15 Apr 03 - 07:29 PM Well, greg, since you asked.... what I like is for there not to be endless cycles of renewing the debate about topics, topic division, and how the site ought to be organized. Also, I like town "officials" to know when it's time to call a town meeting, and I like it when they convene it. And I like it when they don't happen very often. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: greg stephens Date: 15 Apr 03 - 07:38 PM Well, what I like is for anybody to raise a topic when they think it's appropriate. others can judge if it's interesting or not. And intriguingly, this got classified as BS within seconds. Whereas recently people have posted political threads which started off up top, and when people said"This should be BS" the poers that be replied "dont complain so quick, it'll be taken care of in a few hours if necessary". "Religion in song circles" still seems to be up in the music section, I am a rabid music contributor and I think this is a musical thread(even though I admit I disapprove of the classification system). Are you allowed to ask, who classified this thread? And why so quick? |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: CarolC Date: 15 Apr 03 - 08:58 PM I really, really like being able to post whatever silliness I'm in the mood for, and being able to engage in all kinds of non-music discussion, without a half dozen people with poles up their collective arses jumping down my throat about it and saying it doesn't belong on this forum. As long as the non-music threads are at the bottom, they leave us alone. I like that a lot. |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: Bobert Date: 15 Apr 03 - 09:17 PM Well, Gregster, I agree with you. This "seperate but equal" forum has, in my opinoin, watered down the joint. Lots of real inresting folks jusy moved on. Segregation has that inherent tendency. It's similar to ethnic cleansing except in this case it's "thought" cleansing. Having said that, I know that I angered a few of the *Old Cats* a few months ago and they had Joe take me aside for a little talk and I promised to be a better kitten, not start more than my share of threads, and not scratch the litter out of the box. All, I am happy to say, I have done. But in giving in to the pressurrs from the *Old Cats* the joint is less inviting. Reminds me of a club not far from here that went banrupt because the oldsters (70's and 80's) just didn't want to hear any new ideas from the kids (50-'s and 60's). You know the club, Greg, because it was the beautiful club with the lake where we live. A shame but that life! Hey, I'll be the first to admit that I don't hang around here as much as I used to and I'll go on record of saying that I miss some to the knotheads that I used to bang heads with but, hey, it's their club... Say hey to Katie fir me and the P-Vine. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: wysiwyg Date: 15 Apr 03 - 09:31 PM greg, Joe has said often and widely that discussions about particular threads' classification belongs in the Help Forum. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: GUEST Date: 15 Apr 03 - 10:29 PM Well, it sure is a touchy subject. I was locked out of the forum (or so Max would like to think, anyway) for a month after the split because I had the audacity of critizing the Mudcat Royals. I mostly lurked for the past month, with an occassional post now and then. Found myself less and less interested, and went for a good two week stretch without bothering to look in. Originally I was all in favor of the split. Now, I think it has adversely effected the forum dynamic. The insistence of the Mudcat Royals having it their way is just another sign of how far the place has gone down hill, IMO. Control freaks run the joint, and not too many people tolerate that well, which is why I think the forum is losing participants, and the conversation is happening among fewer and fewer of the same old people. Like Bobert says, it is a small group of people who don't like change, who don't welcome strangers, who don't want anyone messing with their little club. But it's their club, so by god they'll have it their way. Frankly, I've found the music threads have been painfully dull since the split too. Unless of course the reviving of old, worn out threads (because the Mudcat Royals are regular nazis these days about starting new threads) is your idea of real fine online conversation. My unsolicited (and sure to be resented and flamed) opinion about the new Mudcat is...the Royals have it, their way. And their way is pretty dull and unimaginative. |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: NicoleC Date: 15 Apr 03 - 10:41 PM I'm still delighted with it. Still. Always. Less ugliness, less flaming, and a LOT less garbage and flaming by those GUESTS who can't be bothered with the primary purpose of this forum -- music -- but feel that it's their right to insult everyone else. |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: GUEST Date: 15 Apr 03 - 10:49 PM NicoleC, if you so resent my anonymity and criticalness, you could always ignore me, and address the complaints of the named members instead. But then, I make such an easy target, don't I? Much easier than responding to greg or Bobert. Which means you are also dissing their opinions indirectly, in that typical Mudcat passive/aggressive way. |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: Ebbie Date: 15 Apr 03 - 10:57 PM I agree with those who like it bettr this way. Less conflict about it and I really enjoy the obvious fact that there are a LOT more threads about music than there is BS. So that particular complaint from time immemorial doesn't seem valid to me. Never did. When I log on, I go through the music threads first. THEN I get to browse in the BS section. All in all, I like the BS better because it's a powerful connection. Many people from the past no longer post, 'tis true. Why, is anybody's guess. I'm sure a lot of them still read, they just don't write. But that's life. Fluidity is the name of the game. |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: Padre Date: 16 Apr 03 - 12:32 AM I prefer the split between music and BS |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: leprechaun Date: 16 Apr 03 - 12:48 AM You stupid GUEST. You make an easy target because you are a dick. Nicole did respond. She said she's delighted with it. |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Apr 03 - 12:54 AM Bobert, you've been a terrific Mudkitten. I'm proud of you. As for you, O Nameless One, I don't suppose anybody will mess with you as long as you mind your manners. The rules haven't changed - no lengthy non-music cut/paste posts, don't go starting threads every time you blink, and try to address people in a civil manner (can't say I've noticed you being horribly uncivil). And yes, we're keeping political stuff and chit-chat out of the music area. Seems reasonable enough for a music forum, I think. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: NicoleC Date: 16 Apr 03 - 01:04 AM Tsk, tsk, dear narcissistic GUEST, who said I was talking about you? |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: GUEST Date: 16 Apr 03 - 03:58 AM Any member who wants to have it the way Greg wants it only has to go to membership, chose Mix Music & Non-music - Yes and update their details. Where on earth is the problem in allowing every member a CHOICE how they view and use the forum? |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: TIA Date: 16 Apr 03 - 05:59 PM Thanks Guest... didn't know I could do that. Vive le choix. |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: greg stephens Date: 16 Apr 03 - 06:00 PM I know we have a choice(though it's not advertised). I just happen to think we have been divided(or have chosen to be divided, if you prefer it that way)..and I personally don't think it has improved the general interactions that go on. That's my opinion. I dont expect others to share it, I was just wondering who does. |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Apr 03 - 06:55 PM Magic - it works. The Old Mixed Up Mudcat once again. And that's how I think I'll keep it. How far it's changed things I'm not sure. The thing is, things change around here every now and again anyway. Like the tide going in and out, except that it's not regular and predictable, so far as I can see. My gut feeling is it has had some bad results. I haven't the time, nor the inclination, to research this, but I think that many people are now more likely to stick more consistently to just one half of the forum, and not even notice the existence of threads they might be interested in, when they aren't in that half. But on the other hand it seems to have cut out some of the "this doesn't belong here" stuff. And it seems to have made it a bit harder for the "look-at-me-I'm-invisible" characters to stir things up, and that is a thoroughly good thing. Stirring can have its place, but not that kind. Maybe there needs to be some way of drawing it to people's attention that we do have this mix or not mix choice all laid on. Maybe the best way is to bring it up sometimes in threads. I know it's going to be in the FAQ, but I don't think people consult that too often once they've settled in here. Maybe people who prefer it mixed could sign their posts that way... (Mixed) |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: M.Ted Date: 17 Apr 03 - 01:19 PM One thing that you notice with the split is that , though there may be fewer non-music threads, they are, by far, the most active-- |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: Bardford Date: 17 Apr 03 - 01:20 PM There are two types of people in the world - 1.those who like to categorize, and 2.those who don't. I'm in group number two. I think the newspaper classifieds would be much more interesting without headings. I think CD song listings should be buried in the liner notes. I think web pages, newsgroups, my email inbox should have an organic, imprecise, DADA-like interface. I think it is imperitive to discuss the Mudcat membership hierarchy at least once every three weeks. I think everyone in the band should play the song in the key of their choice. I think the dictionary should have an index. I think there should be a cover charge at the Mudcat cafe. I think the two best songwriters in the world are Trad and Anon. I think this message is superfluous, innappropriate, and unneccessary, and contributes nothing helpful to the current debate. Regards, Bardford |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: Ebbie Date: 17 Apr 03 - 01:58 PM The non-music threads are the most active, no doubt about it; on the other hand, when someone asks for lyrics or chords or artists, just how many answers are needed? BS threads are as individual as opinions. There are, however, occasionally enjoyable,long, meaty discussions on the meaning and history and documentation of an individual song. |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: gnomad Date: 17 Apr 03 - 02:48 PM Well, I never realised there was a choice on offer, you learn a little every day (see GUESTS do have their good side). I'm glad that those who prefer the all in approach can still have it how they like it. For me though the reduction in sniping brought about by the split arrangement makes it look like a good choice, and it helps me find what I'm looking for. |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: leprechaun Date: 17 Apr 03 - 09:27 PM Bardford - If you would put some bullets or line breaks in that long rambling paragraph it would have a lot more clarity. |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: GUEST Date: 17 Apr 03 - 09:48 PM Doh. |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: GUEST Date: 18 Apr 03 - 09:02 AM "Less ugliness, less flaming, and a LOT less garbage and flaming..." Like I said, the "new" Mudcat is even more dull and unimaginative than the old. Now it is a forum which purports to be discussing music first (it isn't, the lion's share of posting is still happening down below), while it is uses brownshirt tactics to make the forum safe for those with a penchant for safe, sanitized, incestuous chat. I'd say the forum lobotomy to prevent discord, and the valium stupor of the music conversations, pretty much has left Mudcat with a small group of dull, unimaginative people babbling to themselves. Has something of the feel of the commons room on a mental ward. |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Apr 03 - 12:29 PM I resent and protest this reference to "brown shirts." The people who know and love me, know that Joe Offer always wears plaid. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: Alba Date: 18 Apr 03 - 12:47 PM Pay no attention to Nurse Rachett's Forum/Fashion review! Im sure you wear the plaid well Mr Offer:>) |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: greg stephens Date: 18 Apr 03 - 06:51 PM I have a definite (if unprovable) feeling that the division has diminished the quality of dicussion. I have tried to discuss Iraqi musicians and allied issues, for example, up above the line in the music threads. I just know that people whose opinions I know and love(or loathe) are now far too busy below the line talking their arses offf about George Bush and Iraq to bother to contribute to an Iraq music thread. Three months ago I know there would been more interesting interaction. I think the quality of the music dicussion is going down because of the absence of some of our best BS merchants, and vice versa. |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: greg stephens Date: 18 Apr 03 - 07:01 PM And incidentally we are told we have a choice. How do you find out how to mix the threads? I cant see any instructions. I know my cable tv system isnt perfect, perhaps I cant find these instructions for that reason. Believe me,I've looked but aomehow I cant find. But me mixing the threads wont help. or me and McGrath. But if a lot of us change.....I'd love to, and I'll sign it "mixed" like McGrath to identify myself, if only I could do it. |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: GUEST Date: 18 Apr 03 - 07:39 PM Greg, You and McGrath may well have a point about the need to advertise the ability to work the forum either way. If there is a need, I'd imagine it is being looked at. Beyond that, I've no doubt that the change will have an effect but I think a slight one and one that in terms of the odd mild off topic comment within music. It will probably ease as people become more relaxed with the new system. In all my time at Mudcat, there was a slow but steady trend in terms of more converastion and less music with fewer of the better musical contributers showing up as regularly. There has been round after round of arguments here over BS vs Music and each time round those rows became more bitter, even with friends falling out with friends. I got caught up in it, accusing Max of not taking the development steps prehaps needed to restore some sanity round here. As far as I'm concerned, these steps, through excellent development work from Jeff/Pene Azul - no doubt with consulation from Joe, Max and Clones have provided the best possible solution to accomodate everyone here. Effort seems to have been made to support this move, even from some of the keenest BS'ers here. Also, as is clear from the above, some are enjoying no longer worrying about arguments over BS and some who read BS (that would include me) prefer to read music first and then read BS. It is a system that I believe could work well and had already seemed to resolved some problems. You have been successful already in opening new doors for at least one of our resident trolls. Congratulations. The old system had years for us to observe. This one has had but a couple of months. Can't you give it a little longer before jumping to conclusions. Jon |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Apr 03 - 08:38 PM I don't know if the fact Greg is doing this though the telly makes this impossible, but, with me, I went up to "membership" at the top of the page and clicked on that, and up came a page with my details on it. Then, if I go down to the bottom of that page, there's a facility that allows me to choose either mixed or separate, with the separate being the default. (Mixed) |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: NicoleC Date: 18 Apr 03 - 09:37 PM If nothing else, this argument is much nicer and welcome change of pace from the old version of the ONGOING MUDCAT DISAGREEMENT. :D |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Apr 03 - 10:43 PM Registered Mudcatters who'd like to have the "mixed" format on their Forum Menu should go to membership, check the appropriate box toward the bottom of the page, and click the "submit" button. Your cookie will be reset, showing that you have the mixed-format preference. Jeff also devised a Forum Menu for unregistered people who prefer the mixed format, but I forget what the URL is. I'll look around and see if I can find it - after dinner. If somebody knows it, please post it here. -Joe Offer- Here 'tis: http://www.mudcat.org/threads.cfm?mixbs=yes Uh, well...it doesn't seem to work any more for me. Jeff says it should work for those who don't have a Mudcat cookie. If you're registered and logged in, your Mudcat cookie overrides it. |
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Subject: RE: classification/music/Iraq/rethink??? From: greg stephens Date: 19 Apr 03 - 08:47 AM McGrath/Joe Offer. Thanks very much for information. Am now trying the alternative format. Greg (mixed) |
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