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BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq
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Subject: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: mg Date: 05 Apr 03 - 09:11 PM Got into this on another thread. Let's have some practical suggestions here. What would you do? Less philosophy, more concrete. I would: 1. Assume that as much as possible should be done by themselves, but perhaps the oil building would have to be done by us or others to get the oil flowing. And the oil would pay for the rebuilding. 2. Get the water flowing. 3. Get a whole lot of solar stuff going. 4. Get the mini-loans going. 5. Get those tomatoes that are spoiling on the vines to the people somehow. 6. Check out those fired earth houses the Iranian architect designs. 7. Have widespread vocational education, especially in construction and medical areas. For older workers as well as youth. 8. that's all for now. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Blackcatter Date: 05 Apr 03 - 09:30 PM Divide it into three countries and run like hell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Ebbie Date: 05 Apr 03 - 10:39 PM It is said that the third echelon of government in Iraq is knowledgeable and efficient. I would ask them what they need to rebuild and restore their economy and say we'll do our best to get it for them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: *daylia* Date: 06 Apr 03 - 09:46 AM Well, here's hoping they don't do it this way, again. (THe link is an animation, short and sweet). daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: GUEST,Jon Date: 06 Apr 03 - 11:26 AM A few McDonalds and Walmarts... |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Apr 03 - 11:38 AM And the oil would pay for the rebuilding. In other words Iraq pays reparations to cover the cost of the damage done by this war? And no doubt the companies who get the contracts for the repairs are from the countries which made the repairs necessary? It seems to me that, since this war was initiated and waged by the US and the UK, as a means of furthering the interests of the US and the UK, it would be fairer if the whole cost of it came out of our pockets. Even people who think that on balance it was justified should surely agree with that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Mugwump Date: 06 Apr 03 - 11:58 AM Yeah - don't bother! |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Apr 03 - 12:34 PM My suggestion is that you're going to have to rebuild a whole lot more than Iraq after this 4rth World War (post-Cold War) is over, a few years from now. Iraq is just round 1, comparable to Poland. Syria may be round 2. Afghanistan was more like Spain in the late 30's...a proving ground for new techniques and new weapons. After 1945 they said it could never happen again. They were wrong. Only regime change in the USA can head this one off now. Regime change and war crimes trials. I wonder if the Democrats have any guts left in them to undertake such a bold action? I wonder how long they (or anyone else) will have any chance to. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Metchosin Date: 06 Apr 03 - 12:42 PM POTABLE WATER would be nice. Especially for the children and hospitals in southern Iraq right now. After all, it seems agreed that that area has been "liberated" already. Its hard to operate on a child full of shrapnel without using water. Funny how water would be so desparately needed in a desert with all that oil around. Then maybe you can clean up the damage done to the water supply in Baghdad 12 years ago and the following years under UN sanctions, where the US blocked the needed parts and supplies for this feature. Oh, I forgot, the Iraqi's are the only ones to whom the Geneva Convention applies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: DougR Date: 06 Apr 03 - 01:01 PM Right Kevin, send them a check! :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Apr 03 - 01:34 PM I'll be paying my share through OXFAM, Doug. I trust you'll be doing the same,through whatever humanitarian organisation is running an appeal in your part of the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Apr 03 - 07:51 PM Dis parrot is desperate about the disparate spellings seen in dese parts lately... Pedant alert! |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Bobert Date: 06 Apr 03 - 08:39 PM I'm less concerned with rebuilding Iraq than I am rebuilding the good old US of A! But with the current administration, we know who is going to pay for rebuilding of Iraq with the tax burdens slowly shifting away from those who profit from the war onto those who are dieing in it... Meanwhile, the working class is going to be getting a lot less services here at home while taking on a larger responsibility for paying for the same. Yeah, I'd like to just see the US of A, just for once under this arrogant and unilaterialist administration, work with the international community in "rebuilding" Iraq. If i6t is not done in this manner, than it will leave no doubts what this administration's motives were for invading Iraq. The rest are details. If we don't get the broadstrokes corrct we won't be able to cover up the mistakes with a smaller brush.... Guarenteed. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: SINSULL Date: 06 Apr 03 - 10:14 PM Bobert, Last I heard, we can't even allow the Brits to bid on "rebuilding" contracts because...they don't have the SECURITY CLEARANCE!!!!! The arrogance of it all. They can take care of POWs and keep them because we have a death penalty and can't be trusted. But the British can not reap the profit because... Tony Blair must be fuming. |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: catspaw49 Date: 06 Apr 03 - 11:55 PM I don't know all the things it will take but no US sponsored government will be effective unless we show real commiment to the region........and this means we're going to have to get real serious about Israel/Palestine. All of the rhetoric about democracy and a friendly Iraq that gets along with it's neighbors is just that. Unless we work to broker and honest peace, forget it. The US will however make some bucks on the thing and I still fear that is the only thing bush and company are capable of understanding. let's hope that this war, ill timed as it was, can lead to a real leadership role in stabilizing the middle east. Spaw....Wanders off whistling "Over the Rainbow" and shaking his head |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: mg Date: 07 Apr 03 - 12:16 AM am I the only one who thinks of bricks and mortar and electricity and stuff like that? mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: DougR Date: 07 Apr 03 - 12:58 AM Probably Mary. Us folks are much better at suggesting as to how the whole world should be run. :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: mg Date: 07 Apr 03 - 01:12 AM OK. Let us talk about their water supply. Where does it come from? Dirty rivers? Aquifers? And how can it serve 5 million people. Also their sewage systems have been broken for some time. In a place with little water and much sun, (I think..at least now..) shouldn't non-water based systems be looked at? Some places have sand toilets...just add sand... And do a google search under Iranian and earth fired house..think it is called Gelfalten or something similar. They build something like an adobe hogan, seal it, put a heater in to fire it, and it becomes ceramic-like..Said to be much better against earthquake, weather, insects etc. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Troll Date: 07 Apr 03 - 02:49 AM Sanctions that were set by the UN. The US may have not wanted them lifted but the UN set them. Saddam Hussein could have used part of his considerable personal fortune (estimated at from 2 to 9 BILLION to help rebuild infrastructure instead of ripping off his own people on the Oil for Food scheme and building even MORE palaces. I'd say he used the money on WMDs but I have it on excellent authority that they don't exist. Kevin, none of this would ever have started if Iraq hadn't invaded Kuwait in the first place. And speaking or reparations and war debt, have we ever been repaid for Lend-Lease? Water is being delivered to the citizens of Basra etc. as quickly as it can be. Since the Coallition Forces are being extra careful NOT to target civilians, the UK troops and still trying to root out paramilitary groups who use women and children as shields, snipe from Mosques, hide command centers in hospitals and schools, and shoot any of their own countrymen who try to leave town. What does the Geneva Convention have to do with the condition of the infrastructure of Baghdad? Do you have proof that the US refused to allow the Iraqis to import the parts to repair the Baghdad water supply? If so, please furnish the links. As far as who is the greatest transgressor of the rules of war, the International Red Cross has been given FULL access to the Iraqi POW's in Coallition hands. The Iraqis have still not done so. To use the same argument that I have seen used so ofter by theantis, that's probably because they are all dead. LH, clean up your own countries problems; THEN start making suggestions for what WE should do. I don't know about security clearances but USAID money MUST be spent by American companies. And if our law says that all companies engaged in this kind of work and paid in US Dollars must have a security clearance, then that's how it is. I'm sure the UK has a few laws on the books that seem nonsensical to other countries. If the US is footing the bill, then the US makes the rules. Why is that so wrong? troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Forum Lurker Date: 07 Apr 03 - 12:05 PM Mary Garvey-I couldn't find anything about fired earth houses on a Google search. They get their water primarily from the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, which certainly hold enough water for the entire population, provided it can be purified. |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: mg Date: 07 Apr 03 - 12:37 PM here you go. http://www.architectureweek.com/2000/0517/building_1-1.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Forum Lurker Date: 07 Apr 03 - 12:45 PM Yeah, that would speed and cheapen the rebuilding of homes, but I don't think it would help that much for the water and sewage infrastructure. The problem there is as much the piping and machinery as the building to house it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Ebbie Date: 07 Apr 03 - 12:46 PM "Water is being delivered to the citizens of Basra etc. as quickly as it can be. " troll Until water lines can be repaired/rebuilt, it occurs to me that it would take a heck of a lot of tankers to bring in water for a city of 5 million people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Apr 03 - 04:21 PM Why does anyone need a security clearance to rebuild bridges and repair roads and rebuild houses and power stations and so forth? Presumably the actual work is going to be done by Iraqis anyway. They know what to do - ythere doesn't seem much wrong with the things they've been buildig, except that they have been the wrong things - palaces instead of schools. And those are the kind of crazy things that get built in all countries, even when they don't get called palaces. What's the point of having a load of foreign companies that don't even speak the language charging around telling people what to do? And creaming off a healthy profit in the process. |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Apr 03 - 04:24 PM Now some kind of honesty clearance might be relevant - and that would exclude a hell of a lot of major companies in the USA (and no doubt the UK, if investigators sniffed around a bit more effectively). |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Metchosin Date: 07 Apr 03 - 05:37 PM POTABLE WATER would be nice right now. Children on the roadside are begging American troops in southern Iraq for it. Thousands of children died because of the lack of it when Baghdad was bombed during the first go round. Article 54 of the Geneva Convention states: "It is prohibited to attack, destroy or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population" and includes foodstuffs, livestock and drinking water supplies and irrigation works". |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: GUEST,pdc Date: 07 Apr 03 - 05:58 PM The Carnegie Endowment for International Peace has just posted a very valuable, updated list of internet links to the key documents on the administration's plans for regime change in Iraq. It includes links not only to the official government document, "The National Security Strategy of the USA," and "Rebuilding America's Defenses" by the Project for the New American Century (the small clique of neo-conservatives that has gained primary influence at the White House), but also major articles analyzing the plans. The US public is only beginning to sense the underlying goal of empire-building, in which the attack on Iraq may be only one of a series of wars, that is now in place. It would be useful to bring this listing to the attention of university libraries. If you are interested, go to the Carnegie website at http://www.ceip.org/ (just click on this address), and select "Origins of Regime Change in Iraq." |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Celtic Soul Date: 07 Apr 03 - 06:54 PM Like we have a vote... |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Apr 03 - 07:10 PM When you get down to it, what's the diffeence between "New Labour" and "neo-conservative"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Apr 03 - 07:28 PM And here is an immediate practical suggestion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Troll Date: 07 Apr 03 - 11:28 PM And, of course, Metchosin, you can show positively that the Coalition in either '91 OR'03, targeted Iraqi water treatment facilities. What the Geneva Convention refers to is the deliberate targeting of these facilities, not their accidental destruction or damaging. If you will come down from your ivory tower for a moment, you will realize that the Coalition troops have bert over backwards to keep from damaging things like Mosques, schools and hospitals. The only time the lights have gone out in Baghdad has been when the Regime has turned them out, yet it would have been simple to knock out the distribution center. This would have deprived Saddam Hussein and his men any effective means of spreading propaganda. It would also have caused a lot of hardship to the citizens of Baghdad. So they left the power grid alone. Ebbie, the water treatment facilities in Basra were busted before our troops ever landed. Saddam Husseins irregular troops prevented ANY humanitarian aid from being distributed to the citizens for quite a while. It is pretty obvious that they cared nothing for the suffering of the people of the city. They shot them down when they tried to escape the fighting. If Saddam Hussein was so concerned about the people of Iraq, why didn't he use some of the money that he spent building all those palaces (19 I heard somewhere) to relieve the peoples suffering. Please don't give me any talk about how the US prevented Iraq from importing the necessary repair parts. If Saddam Hussein could get arms, ammunition, tanks, gas masks, etc. around the "sanctions", he could sure as hell have gotten the parts to repair the water treatment plants. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: mousethief Date: 07 Apr 03 - 11:49 PM < Kinder than they were to the Serbians, eh? Whatever we do we can't pull out and leave a power vacuum like we did in Afghanistan. Reports today have the Taliban reasserting control in some parts. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Apr 03 - 12:45 AM "LH, clean up your own countries problems; THEN start making suggestions for what WE should do." Okay... Too many WalMarts in Canada. I don't shop there. Too many junk food outlets. I seldom eat at those. Too much advertising. I avoid it, and boycott those products with the most annoying ads. Not enough good music. Play the best I can, to make up the shortfall. Political parties that have been bought out by American money. Don't vote for them. Write letters to my "representatives" (ha!) and give them my opinion (which is my civic duty, right?). Too much alcoholism and cigarette addiction. Don't participate in either vice. Some crime. Don't do that either. Road rage. Don't do that. These are among my efforts to clean up Canada. Now, the USA presumes to speak (and act) on behalf of the entire World, unlike Canada which does not presume to do that. I am part of the World, therefore the USA is presuming to act on behalf of me, and therefore I have a right to make suggestions as to what the USA should or should not do...and I shall. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: GUEST,Peace Date: 08 Apr 03 - 05:57 AM Can anyone give a me a reference to a source material which shows that Saddam stole from the Oil for Food programme? I am not denying that this happened and I certainly wouldn't put it past him, but I keep seeing it asserted everywhere, but never to a link to the source of the assertion. Its just that I have read stuff that implies this wasn't true - from what I consider a reputable source - Hans Sponeck and Dennis Halliday (former UN humanitarian coordinators referring to a UN report). "The most recent report of the UN secretary-general, in October 2001, says that the US and UK governments' blocking of $4bn of humanitarian supplies is by far the greatest constraint on the implementation of the oil-for-food programme. The report says that, in contrast, the Iraqi government's distribution of humanitarian supplies is fully satisfactory (as it was when we headed this programme). The death of some 5-6,000 children a month is mostly due to contaminated water, lack of medicines and malnutrition. The US and UK governments' delayed clearance of equipment and materials is responsible for this tragedy, not Baghdad." Link to article Peace |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: GUEST,petr Date: 08 Apr 03 - 12:45 PM you want proof that Saddam stole from the oil for food programme? take a lot at the Kurdish controlled lands in Northern Iraq. They also received a share of the oil for food program, they spent the money building roads, schools, hospitals and other infrastructure instead of missiles, bunkers, statues, palaces in the shape of Saddams thumbprint etc. THe Kurds have in fact never had it so good. The child mortality figures in Kurdish controlled Iraq, are much lower than the rest of Iraq. WHY is that? because Saddam used the Sanctions as a political weapon, as there has been little work in Iraq, nearly everyone received food with a ration card. Take away the ration card and you get no food. WHich was infact done all the time to control the population. IN a recent CBC Passionate Eye documentary on the history of Saddam in Iraq, the UN estimated that Saddam received $6 billion US in sanction busting (illegal) oil exports, most of which he spent on as he liked (ie. military, palaces etc). (why do you need gold faucets when children are dying. Just as food was controlled through ration cards, so was medicine - apparently Baghdad tightly controlled the required medication. In a Frontline interview the Saudi Prince Bandar said to take a lot at things the Iraqis requested ? importing 14,000 cases of scotch whiskey - why not milk or medicine that they need? In the end the sanctions played into Saddams hand, as he still had money to pursue weapons programs, the educated middle class of Iraq was driven out, and the people were impoverished and under even greater control of the regime. THere really was no opposition that could rebel against the leadership - the network of informers, state torture, plastic grinding machines etc saw to that. Now, under such conditions if the UN were to get rid of the sanctions, it would only have been a political victory for Saddam with no guarantee that it would help the people of Iraq. If there is a positive example for Iraq it is what the Kurds in the North have done. (a people with no history of Democracy) by the way. One of my co-workers who was stridently against the war - said that the shia, and kurds etc will start killing each other, that in fact they need a firm hand like Saddams to keep them under control - which has to be the dumbest argument against the war Ive heard, not to mention an insult to the people of Iraq. petr. |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Troll Date: 08 Apr 03 - 01:35 PM Time Magazine did an issue about a month ago on Iraq and gave details of how it was done. Basically, Saddam Hussein had to go to the UN each month and say how much he was willing to sell oil for. He would consistently quote a price that was at least$.50/bbl. below the world market. The UN would of course approve the price. He would then sell the oil to brokers and tack on a (for instance) $.30/bbl. surcharge to be paid separately to HIM. Since the brokers were getting an excellent deal, they went along and Saddam Hussein pocketed the change. Of course, when he dealt with countries like the US, that didn't happen but since the bulk of the oil was sold through brokers and middlemen, he got even richer. THAT'S how he ripped off the Oil-for-Food program and he did it right under the noses of the UN representatives who were administering the program. LH, that's nice. Now, what are you doing to ensure that the new Nickle mine in northern Labrador doesn't wind up polluting the entire Hudsons Bay System? That's a little more important than not shopping at WalMart, wouldn't you agree? troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Amos Date: 08 Apr 03 - 11:26 PM One good piece of rebuilding in Iraq started today when US forces opened up some jails in which hunbdreds of children had been held, some for as much as three years, because they didn't join the Junior Batman Baathist Party, or whatever Hussein's jungbunde was called. US Marines also liberated a number of people who were being held and tortured as recently as this morning, with fresh cigarette burns oin their chests and new whipping marks on their hands and feet. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Troll Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:42 AM But we shouldn't be there. Yeah. Sure. Whatever. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Troll Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:47 AM Amos, are you SURE that the Coalition didn't plant those kids and torturees just to help justify our presence in Iraq? I mean, if we'd plant evidence of WMDs, why not prisoners too. A little hard to jail kids three years ago for a PR piece today but the CIA is pretty sneaky and , of course they KNEW that Bush would win the election even then and would attack Iraq. Yeah. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Amos Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:46 AM Troll: What happened, someone lose the map to the planted WMD caches? :>) Seriously, I detect just a trace of bitterness in your sarcasm. War is a confusing and impassioned issue, but don't hang on to your upsets any longer than necessary, eh? Attaboy! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Don Firth Date: 09 Apr 03 - 03:38 PM GUEST,pdc, you cite good information. I wasn't able to find the articles you mentioned directly on the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace web site (link HERE). Apparently the links had been moved, or for some reason I couldn't locate them. But with the titles you provided, I was able to access them through google. Here are links: The National Security Strategy of the USA; Rebuilding America's Defenses (downloadable in PDF format); and Origins of Regime Change in Iraq. I also think people should go to the web site of the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) and read what these people say in their own words. If we are to be an "informed electorate" as our Founding Fathers assumed we would be, we should really educate ourselves on what our government is doing and why they are doing it. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Metchosin Date: 13 Apr 03 - 02:09 AM Troll, I'm inclined to agree with the following statement ….."The US human rights group, Middle East Watch, notes that, 'insofar as the civilian population is concerned, it makes little or no difference whether [a civilian facility] is attacked or destroyed, or is made inoperable by the destruction of the electrical plant supplying it power. In either case, civilians suffer the same effects - they are denied the use of a public utility indispensable for their survival.'" I personally can't prove that the US deliberately targeted Iraqi water treatment plants, although there are reports that a water treatment plant in Basra was bombed on twelve separate occasions, which would hardly seem to qualify as accidental. Nor can I prove that dams and sewerage treatment facilities were deliberately targeted in 91, but given the following, I doubt that you could prove that the US didn't deliberately render them useless. "In 1991 Colonel John A. Warden III, the deputy director of strategy, doctrine and plans for the US Air Force, acknowledged that the wrecking of Iraq's electricity system 'gives us long-term leverage'." "General Schwarzkopf, US commander in the Gulf region, claimed that 'we never had any intention of destroying all of Iraqi electrical power" but by the time the air war was over, "Schwartzkopf's forces had destroyed 95 percent of Iraq's prewar electrical-generating capacity." "US Air Force officers were quoted in the US press in June 1991 as saying that the targeting of Iraq's infrastructure had been related to an effort 'to accelerate the effects of sanctions'." "Smart bombs" played only a small role in the Gulf War, most of the ordinance dropped on Iraq during that period was not of the "smart bomb" category and what was not damaged during the Gulf War period, was certainly degraded by further sanctions. The source of these quotes can be found on the following site http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2000/msg00998.html Even if some might not appreciate the connection between electrical power generation and the continued operation of water purification and sewer treatment systems, the following by Thomas J. Nagy, gives credence to the case that someone in the US administration sure did. How the U.S. Intentionally Destroyed Iraq's Water Supply That the regime of Saddam Hussein might have put a higher priority on easily supplied munitions to enhance military might, despite "sanctions", over goods and services for the direct benefit of his people, is of no surprise. There are a number of "regimes" in the world that seem to share those very same priorities, some of them very close to home. On the other hand, sophisticated parts required for American and Japanese manufactured water treatment facilities originally in use in Iraq, although perhaps not impossible, might be little harder to access than arms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Socorro Date: 13 Apr 03 - 11:55 AM I went to Jimmy Carter's website, but no update since January (he didn't favor war). He is practical, caring, & has integrity, & he's an American who knows how the system works, & uses it for humanitarian ends. However,I don't imagine GWB would ever stoop so low as to ask a Democrat for advice, more's the pity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: mg Date: 13 Apr 03 - 03:19 PM I would like to see various economics of the situation discussed. I guess, in general, here is what I would do from my armchair, without any particular knowledge or specialized information. 1. Establish curfews and secure from looting, with military and whatever local people can pass a rudimentary security screening for now. Former traffic police..that sort of thing..none of Saddam's thugs although it will be hard to tell the difference. Plus perhaps soldiers from neighboring somewhat friendly, non-agressive countries. 2. Bring in emergency food and water supplies. How to control mobs? I don't know. Give food and water to the able-bodied and have them help. Perhaps have separate areas for families, single men and single women. Have lots of mini-distribution centers in various open areas. 3. Get the water plants going again. 4. Get the able-bodied to dig latrines all over if that is necessary. Give extra food rations and perhaps an i.o.u. for future payment from oil revenues. 5. As much as possible should be done by the Iraqi people, particularly the men, who have probably felt totally humiliated by their inability to even feed their families, and having to have been released from their bondage by a foreign power that they undoubtedly have mixed feelings toward. That's the hard part. Stop the looting, secure the area, bring in water and emergency rations and medical supplies..well, basically just secure the area and stuff will flow in. It's ready and waiting. Then I would probably go the best known engineering water people and have them fix the water supplies and sanitation. Worldwide. Hire as many local people as possible though. Then next I would do the same for oil. Get it flowing. I would have the oil revenues pay for whatever of this it could while still providing basic needs of the Iraqis. I suspect it could be 100% and I have no moral qualms at all about this. The U.S. does have to look after its own malnourished, undereducated and medically unserved people and Iraq has a marvelous source of short-term income. Of course it should be used partially to pay for rebuilding. Why ever not. At the same time, as someone else suggested in an editorial, I would want to see modest amounts of cash go from the first oil revenues to the people. Maybe it would be $25 for an adult and $15 for a teen and $10 for each child...maybe that would be a one time thing or maybe every few months or whatever...but it would get a few new pairs of shoes and glasses and tires for the bicycle. If immense amounts of money were flowing, I wouldn't share that much directly with the people because it doesn't work in the long run. The money should go into education, especially first and foremost technical and vocational educationf or older youth and adults...you want them working or learning and off the streets lounging around. As I also want for American streets. I would set a lot of money aside for these mini-loans for merchants to repair their stores perhaps and women to buy a few goats in the country side. I personally think if they are left alone with an immediate infusion of necessary relief, which hopefully they will repay for future emergencies elsewhere in the world (when they have solved their immediate problems) and the oil revenues reach the people in terms of some immediate cash and some mini-loans and a good educational and medical system....watch them prosper...and become world-class engineers and businesswomen, which they already are.... mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Forum Lurker Date: 13 Apr 03 - 03:47 PM mary garvey-There is a very difficult line in dtermining how much force to use on looters. Too much, and innocents die, and the Iraqi people hate us for killing them. Too little, and the museums and hospitals are looted bare, and the Iraqi people hate us for not protecting them. I don't know if anyone can make definite answers on this, except that we are obviously not doing enough at the moment. As far as the oil revenue goes, it certainly makes sense to use it to pay for infrastructure improvements. Anything that we destroyed, we should pay for. Everything that wasn't there before, like modernized hospitals, civil engineering, etc. can be paid for by the Iraqi people, just as any country pays for its infrastructure. I disagree strongly with simply giving the cash straight to the people. Until everyone has a house, food, water, and medical care, and a sovereign government is in place to continue providing these things, the money is more needed in centralized programs, which are usually harder to abuse than simple cash. It's harder to steal food stamps than bills, and less rewarding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: leprechaun Date: 13 Apr 03 - 04:02 PM Maybe Canada could recruit some U.S. companies to teach them how to make GOOD beer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: mg Date: 13 Apr 03 - 04:47 PM I agree with not giving large amounts of cash, or constant enough amounts that people could expect to not work..and I think that sort of has happened in some other situations. But small one-time or occasional amounts directly to at least the poverty class of people...how could that hurt...the money would go for food and clothing one would hope...and jump start the economy....we didn't trust the Iraqi people with the concepts of liberty or freedom. Now do we not trust them to even shop? mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Forum Lurker Date: 13 Apr 03 - 05:04 PM mary garvey-It wouldn't hurt if that was all it were used for. Unfortunately, money is much easier to steal and hoard than are food and clothing. It wouldn't jump start the economy; what they can produce, they will, and what they can't will be imported. This is a situation where there isn't much that consumer spending can do in the short term to affect the economy. The money that they earn, they can spend, but the money gained from expenditure of national resources should go to national expenditures. |
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Subject: RE: BS: suggestions on rebuilding Iraq From: Cluin Date: 14 Apr 03 - 01:25 PM Legos! Send all your spare Legos to Baghdad! |
