 sj |
||
|
||
BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-(
|
|
|
Subject: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: katlaughing Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:07 PM In the insanity of the shrub's war CNN reports the US AirForce is dropping leaflets in Iraq asking their soldiers not to use chemical weapons and warning that the Iraqi leaders will be held accountable as war criminals if they do. This seems a pointless and ineffectual idiocy to me, but then the whole thing does, anyway. The arrogant shrub has chosen to turn deaf ears to the world and to his own citizens. Let the responsibility for what comes lie solely at his and his cabinet's feet. Good for France, Canada and Russia for their dissent! Support our troops...bring them home now. katangrysadcrying&ranting |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:11 PM I hope the USAF and the RAF have been reminded that cluster bomnbs are illegal too. And the International War Crimes Tribunal might not be able to touch the USAF, but the RAF has to keep it in mind, as does Mr Blair. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: SINSULL Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:03 PM According to Dan Rather (post speech commentary), Hussein lives in fear ofhis army deserting and powerful underlings plotting against him. He believed that the leaflets made sense. I am physically sick. I keep hearing about the lives of young people being lost and wondering if they mean on both sides. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: katlaughing Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:06 AM So do I, Sins. My BP has been too high all day, ever since I heard what the shrub planned to say tonight. Thankfully, I have it under control, now, but I just have a terrible, terrible feeling for the whole world at this insanity. McGrath, right you are and I would wish that shrub and his cronies would quake in their boots at the thought of that, but I know they do not. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Rustic Rebel Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:24 AM I believe that the thing to do is not let our thought turn this into some biblical Armageddon. So we might have lost this round of peace... but..maybe not. Saddam Hussein has still got 40 hours to .. um.. comply with the Master(only a side joke ). Who knows what a day brings? I am still holding out for positive answers. I am also asking for positive thought to regain some sense of control and perspective. We can and do create our reality, so now is a good time for meditation and thoughts of harmony. If war does happen,it doesn't mean the world will end. It doesn't mean humanity is over. It only means man still hasn't come to grips with the idea of love. Peace (period) Rustic |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Sorcha Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:31 AM And, sad to say, my brother who is Full Time Career US Army is loving this. He thinks the Whole Thing is just great and about time......needless to say that we don't exactly see eye to eye on this. I too am physically sick. Such a sad mess. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: open mike Date: 18 Mar 03 - 02:33 AM as i said on the "strange new disease" thread, the sickness i feel is a heavy feelin in my heart that sometimes comes in chokin waves and all due to the im- pending war that hings like Damacles' Sword by a slender thread...and the alert status is rising...threats being countered with threats.... it is like Dr. Seuss's Better Butter book where people argue over whether to butter their bread on the top or bottom and risk the world by hurling bigger and bigger weapons at each other....biggering, is what dr. seuss called it in the Lorax. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: HuwG Date: 18 Mar 03 - 06:04 AM Dropping such leaflets on Iraq is a waste of time. The Koran specifies water, or sand, for the obvious purpose to which they can be put. ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: artbrooks Date: 18 Mar 03 - 07:06 AM Taking it as a tragic given that we are ging to war in Iraq, can somebody whose consiousness is higher than mine tell me what's wrong with dropping leaflets encouraging "the bad guys" to give up quicker? The sooner this is over, the fewer innocents on both sides will be injured or killed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Forum Lurker Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:20 AM artbrookse-It's wrong because it will be claimed that when we dropped leaflets, we were actually expecting it to work, so the massive casualties aren't really our fault, because they should have surrendered. It's just bad propaganda. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Troll Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:42 AM Lurker, it's actually a fairly standard proceedure and is done for more reasons than just getting the enemy to sruuender. It also sows doubt. If a soldier thinks that the guy next to him may desert or surrender, he is less effective. In combat, you have to trust the others in your unit. troll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: katlaughing Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:51 AM Rustic, thanks for that very positive reminder. I have fallen away from my own beliefs in what you point out and I resolve, now, to hold to those higher thoughts! kat |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: DougR Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:15 PM Troll is right. It is a part of the psychological "war" waged against an enemy. If the leaflets save lives, I would think all of you liberals would be all for it. I believe they were also used in the first Gulf war by then president Bush, and were credited with thousands of Iraqi soldiers surrendering. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: GUEST,Mars Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:24 PM Oh, waaahwaaaahwaaaaah. This conflict was going on long before the Shrub became President. All of you who claim to be so interested in human rights should fully understand why Hussein has to go; all of you who actually READ the news, instead of listening to other people's rumours, should know he has had EVERY opportunity to cooperate. Unleash the hounds. And be glad your brother in the Army is dedicated and willing to serve. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: GUEST Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:44 PM I am thrilled that the military is willing to go do our bidding. It's time to support the effort now. Those with family members serving need all of the prayers you can muster, care packages to the troops, and hopefully a quick end with a minimum of casualties. If it were not for the military none of you would have the right to be opposing the war and speaking your mind. Were you in Iraq you'd be dead. And not from the big evil America. Suck it up, quit your whining, and support the effort. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Forum Lurker Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:14 PM Trol, DougR-Is there any proof it actually works? If there is, I'm all for it, but it seems to me like a cheap attempt to look like we have the best interests of the Iraqis in mind. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Don Firth Date: 18 Mar 03 - 02:09 PM I know, Sorcha. I have a relative who has been in the military, but has never actually been in combat. He's downright gleeful about this whole thing--trumpets blaring, banners snapping in the wind, the whole Glory of War sickness. We've had our arguments and there is no way I can convince him of the sheer immorality of this, so around him, I just keep my mouth shut for the sake of family harmony. ". . . all of you liberals. . . . " Doug, when it comes to stereotyping people, you just never quit, do you? Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Kim C Date: 18 Mar 03 - 02:15 PM So what is the best way to effect regime change without involving gunfire? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: CarolC Date: 18 Mar 03 - 02:55 PM It's this idea the US has about changing the "regimes" in other countries that put Saddam's people in power in the first place. The US (along with the UK) has been mucking about with the governments of other countries for a long, long time, and the results just keep getting more and more disasterous. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Greg F. Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:02 PM You mean in Washington, Kim? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Troll Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:10 PM As I have said before, Carol. We created him and it's our job to rid the world of him. What would you have the US do? Sit and wring our hands until he has nuclear capability. Sit by and watch as he destroys his own people? Go to the "Shred "Em" thread and read the story and then try to justify not removing Saddam by any means possible. You think the Israelis commit atrocities against the Palestinian Arabs? You don't even know what real atrocities are. Read the story. troll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Pseudolus Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:34 PM Are we really picking on Bush for dropping leaflets? Someone asked if there was any proof that it actually works.....is there any proof that it doesn't? How many lives would it have to save before it would be "worth it"? If I remember the numbers from the news last night we have 280,000 troops in the region. That's a lot of people willing to put there lives on the line for me. I appreciate that more than any of them will ever know. I believe that their mere existence, their attitudes about defending their country and their zeal for the job at hand make them a special breed. I may not agree with that attitude but I do believe that the war is inevitable and without that attitude they would have a much smaller chance of surviving it. I have stayed out of these threads until now but I just have to ask the folks who have been against the war, against the attacks on Afghanistan and against our presence in the region, if all of that is wrong, what IS the answer? I'm trying my best not to be argumentative, especially since I don't totally disagree with the folks against the war, but I don't have another answer. In all of the threads, I don't know that I've heard an alternative, just the resistance to war. Help me understand. I too am concerned, scared, ill, etc. But part of me wants it to start just so that it can end, unfortunately I feel that strongly that it is inevitable...please, please, please don't let this post start an argument, I just want us all to talk.....talking is good for the soul.... Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:37 PM Add injury to insults, and flip off the UN And promice results, the impossible end Where most of the world just jeers at the fight The US pays solders and cheers with delite Is there no resisting to make retribution A more interesting thought than our own constitution This worldwide alliance we once led with our ethics May now watch on in silence while thinking "pathetics" We owe it to Franklin, Our far sighted notions Who based humanitarian values in nations What would he do, in this moment of squallor Where the righteous in conquest disregard moral valor? ttr |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: GUEST Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:44 PM Is being a Liberal a crime? Is it bad? ttr - you make no sense - |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: CarolC Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:50 PM I read the story troll, and I don't agree with your assessment of what constitutes a "real atrocity". I don't see much qualitative difference between the experience of being flattened by a bulldozer and shredded in a shredder. And I don't believe for a minute that the atrocities committed by the IDF and the Israeli government are in any way "accidents". We created him and it's our job to rid the world of him. I disagree. I think our track record with regard to "regime change" shows that we are not to be trusted with this type of action, and we should let the world community deal with him. We could help a bit if we would agree to the implementation of the international court, where he could be tried for his crimes against humanity. But that poses a big problem for us considering all of our past crimes against humanity, and the fact that we don't want to limit our ability to commit further crimes against humanity when we deem it expedient. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Ebbie Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:52 PM Frank, here's what one person believes: "With overwhelming military strength now deployed agains him and with intense monitoring from space surveillance and the UN inspection team on the ground, any belligerent move by Saddam against a neighbor would be suicidal. An effort to produce or deploy chemical or biological weapons or to make the slightest move toward a nuclear explosive would be inconceivable. If Iraq does possess such concealed weapons, as is quite likely, Saddam would use them only in the most extreme circumstances, in the face of an invasion of Iraq, when all hope of avoiding the destruction of his regime is lost. Jimmy Carter, former USA president" (emphasis mine, Eb) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Pseudolus Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:59 PM I understand that Ebbie, and in fact I agree with it, however, how long can we continue that mode of watchdog and what Carter was referring to was being able to stop any conventional methods of attack. Hopefully 9/11 taught us that there's more to watch out for than conventional methods of attack. If left unchecked and simply watched isn't it likely that he could find another way? Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Kim C Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:06 PM No, Greg, I'm just saying, no one seems to have presented an alternative. I've asked. Pseudolus has asked. Okay, fine, I'm all for not having a war. But somebody tell us what else there is to do. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: katlaughing Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:36 PM We watch China, we watched the USSR, we watch North Korea. Why does it have to escalate to war with Iraq? Why not keep watching? Eventually Saddam will die, naturally or otherwise, or his detractors with overthrow him (esp., were the CIA, etc. to get involved), or, he'll give up and start to dialogue with us (not likely I know.) We were able to get Noriega without a huge war. We do not need to go to war on this, though I do think it is the only thing the shrub understands or cares about, so any other alternatives to war will not work as long as he is in office. He doesn't give a fuck for diplomacy. kat |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Pseudolus Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:41 PM I believe we were watching Al Qeida when a few planes crashed into the Towers, the Pentagon and a field in PA...these people don't understand diplomacy. Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: katlaughing Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:02 PM We were, but apparently we fucked up, at least that is what I heard...we ignored warning signs along the way. Speaking of Al-Quida, what happened to shrub getting bin Laden? Where are the concrete ties that Iraq etc. were directly involved? Didn't they say the hijackers were Egyptians? I thought I read that somewhere? Noriega didn't respect diplomacy, but that didn't mean we had to bomb the shit out of his country and people. A whole country and its people should not have to suffer because of their leader. I hope the world remembers that about the US, too, cause shrub is already causing more anti-American sentiments than we've seen in a long, long time. kat |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: DougR Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:04 PM Frank: how refreshing to read a post from someone who is not in favor of the war, particularly, but does not otherwise have a solution. Yep, kat, continue to wait until Saddam has his very own nuke weapons. That makes a lot of sense, right? Don: and conservatives are not stereotyped here? Please! DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Ebbie Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:02 PM Ah, but DougR, you make it so easy... Frank, as kat said, if this country had been able to find any connection between Saddam and 9/11 they would be trumpeting it. They have not. So trying to avoid such a threat from Iraq (who had NOT threatened us) does not address the threat from al Quaeda. kat, I believe they say that 16 of the 19 hijackers were Saudis. And Saudi Arabia is an ally of ours. With a much better human rights record than Iraq, of course. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Troll Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:56 PM Carol, if you cannot see much qualitative difference between someone being accidentaly killed while kneeling in front of an armoured bulldozer with limited visibility and deliberately stuffing 30 human beings into a machine akin to a brush chipper (some head first who died quickly and others feet first who died screaming) I do not think that I want to communicate with you any more. Your obvious bitterness toward, if not outright hatred of, Israel and your insistance that the Palestinian Arabs solely in the right and that whatever they do is justified, has left you with a twisted view of everything involving the Middle East. It's all the fault of America and the Jews. The disgust you display for your own country is disheartening. You must be a terribly unhappy person since you rarely have a good thing to say about the country in which you live. Surely there must be somewhere else to live that would not disgust you as America seems to. I hope you can find it and I hope you can find some kind of peace. Goodbye, Carol. troll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:05 PM I'd helluva lot rather see 'em droppin' leaflets than bombs! Actually, almost every military campaign that has been waged since the airplane was first introduced into the battlefield in World War I has used air-dropped propaganda leaflets of one kind or another. If they didn't work, I'm sure they would have quit doing it long ago. For better or worse, propaganda is a big part of the psychological component of modern warfare. And anyone who thinks the U.S. is the only country that uses it has their head up their ass. Remember Tokyo Rose in WWII? If it's sensible to broadcast propaganda on the radio (and you can bet your ass that any Iraqi with a radio can pick up a broadcast right now telling him how useless it is going to be to resist) what's the problem with leaflets? Bruce |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: CarolC Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:18 PM Troll, your words don't represent my thoughts, feelings, or opinions at all. But if you want to believe that they do, there really isn't anything I can do about it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: CarolC Date: 19 Mar 03 - 12:45 AM P.S. Troll. Running away is for cowards. A true patriot, if he or she sees things that are profoundly wrong with what their country is doing, will stay and try to help make things better. I've never been one to take the easy way out. Honest self examination is difficult, and usually extremely painful, but the alternative is a living death. I've looked within, both myself and the workings of my country, and I see the need for change. I'm doing my best to help make that change. And as long as my tax dollars are helping another country do what is wrong, I will try my best to help make change in that situation as well. I am at peace with my decisions. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: mg Date: 19 Mar 03 - 01:11 AM I think it is a good thing to do and it might save lives. Some of it is obvious, like stay indoors, don't take up arms, stay out of the fighting. Some troops, the lucky ones, are already surrendering. It is very sad to see pictures of their officials in meetings etc. They look like they know they are doomed. I think this might give some of them hope for a quick and sure defeat somehow, which is about all they can hope for at this point. Followed by rebuilding and restructuring the country. I think they should keep the soldiers there conscripted after it is all over, and, unless they have jobs to go back to, use them in the rebuilding efforts..the roads, sewage systems etc. I prefer a strong and swift attack to years and years more of torture. If you have any idea what torture is like, and have ever had the notion of you personally being tortured, it is something you can never ever get used to. You want people going in with guns a blazing to rescue you. And that is our choice. And a few other dictators will get the message too. mg |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Teribus Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:30 AM According to carolC the USA put Saddam in power in Iraq - now lets see that was in 1979, when Saddam Hussein became President of Iraq - what part did the USA play in this? Troll it is not often I disagree with you, but, in a similar vein to the one above - the USA did not create Saddam Hussein. Leaflet drops, as someone above has mentioned, are a common precursor to any military campaign. During "Dessert Storm", over 70,000 Iraqi soldiers surrendered, many approached their coalition opponents waving the leaflets that were dropped then. I believe the same will happen this time. The BBC's reporter John Simpson, currently in northern Iraq has interviewed Iraqi deserters from Kirkuk, the Iraqi army have approximately 10,000 troops stationed there. The deserters reckon that half that number will desert immediately that operations commence, the remainder, they reckon will only put up token resistance before surrendering. Saddam does not trust the Iraqi Army, he never has. As a means of reducing the likelyhood of a coup backed by the army, they are deliberately kept short of ammunition - under the present circumstances, my bet is that that will still remain the case. The leaflets may prompt even less resistance than before. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Mr Red Date: 19 Mar 03 - 08:07 AM Is this one of Bush's weapons of meaning destruction? Hit 'em with words they didn't know existed, that'll shake 'em. Well if the pen is mightier than the sword I am all for it, but the pen is obviously the nice guy (to the nasty guy) tactic. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Pseudolus Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:34 AM OK, so what I'm hearing is do nothing for now, keep an eye on him much like we did Russia et al, and hope that we don't "fuck up" again. So when DOES it make sense to use force? What exactly does he have to do to warrant an attack? And what would you tell the families of a 9/11 type disaster concerning why nothing was done ahead of time when we knew he had the weapons available to him? I hate it that we're in this position, but we are here. The war is certain to happen, like it or not, we need to deal with it. It is a grim reality that you can not have the freedoms that our country (in my case the US) enjoys without the military force to protect them. What would a terrorist think if the only reaction after 9/11 we had was to look at them with a waving finger and say, "Hey, hey, hey, that wasn't very nice!" The very freedoms you exercise by opposing the war, calling the president a shrub and posting a message to the world that the US fucked up, are the freedoms protected by a war like the one we're about to engage in. I pray for quickness, I pray for success so that we DON'T have to do this again 10 years from now, and I pray for the folks that are about to put their lives on the line for me and my freedoms. Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Kim C Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:48 AM Ditto, Frank. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: GUEST Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:59 AM Got that right Frank - |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Greg F. Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:11 AM Yo, Pseud: All well and good except for the the small, insignificant fact thet EYE-RACK AND SADDAM HAD NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH SEPTEMBER 11TH. This so-called 'war'- a superpower annihilating a third-world country with 19th century military capabilities in the proud military tradition of the Washita will protect nothing except the Bushite Junta, and that only for a relatively short time. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: CarolC Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:33 AM No Teribus. I didn't say Saddam. I said Saddam's people. The Baathists. Saddam rose from within the ranks of his party to his position of power, but it was a bloody coup backed by the CIA that put the Baathists in power. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: CarolC Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:37 AM Plus, Teribus, on the question of the US having "created" Saddam as troll suggests, we didn't "create" him , but we did help him kill a lot of Kurds and Iranians during the Iran/Iraq war. And we helped him build up quite an arsenal of very nasty stuff. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Beccy Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:42 AM Mr. Red, Assuming that many people in Iraq know how to read their own language, they should get the gist of what's on those leaflets as they are printed in both Arabic and English. As for the dropping of the leaflets? I'd just like to reiiterate/paraphrase what Frank (I think) said... Name one war in the history of the world that has NOT involved psychological operations or propaganda! If the leaflets help some people to stay out of harms way, I say drop more!!!!!! Oh, and Mary Garvey... very nicely said! Beccy |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Pseudolus Date: 19 Mar 03 - 11:20 AM Greg, I'm not saying that this war is in retaliation for 9/11, but we turned a blind eye then and look where it got us. So I ask again, when WOULD be the right time? What DOES have to happen before an attack would be justified? Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Forum Lurker Date: 19 Mar 03 - 12:14 PM Peudolus-Iraq can easily be monitored to prevent any aggression against his neighbors, or non-neighboring countries. There is no reason to believe that he threatens anyone outside his borders, or intends to do so. An attack is justified only in self-defense, which this is not. As far as his human rights record, we could remove many more dictators with far less effort, for a net gain in human rights, if we targeted those dictators who aren't so paranoid that we can't find them short of bombing the country flat. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Teribus Date: 19 Mar 03 - 12:20 PM CarolC, Thanks, I stand corrected, I misread your earlier post - the CIA did indeed help the Ba'athist in 1963. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: CarolC Date: 19 Mar 03 - 12:33 PM I should have responded to this one last night: It's all the fault of America and the Jews. --troll Troll, you do a great disservice to a lot of people in saying "the Jews". You know as well as I do that there are many Jews who do not support the right wing government in Israel. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Pseudolus Date: 19 Mar 03 - 01:01 PM Well Forum Lurker, I understand and respect your point. we will have to agree to disagree however because I don't believe that he can "easily" be monitored. OK, we can make sure that he doesn't send thousand of troops our way and we can make sure that he doesn't launch an air attack our way or towards his neighbors but if 9/11 has taught us nothing else, it should have taught us that the "standard" way of engaging in war has changed. If he has the weaponry, he'll find a way to use it. Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: GUEST,JTT Date: 19 Mar 03 - 01:05 PM In Europe we see different news, I suspect, from those that the Americans see; in recent days reports from Iraq have featured families building bomb shelters in their gardens, made with planks and bags of earth. I mourn all of those who died on September 11, 2001, in the atrocity by Al-Qaeda. But how often will their ghosts be walked out to justify atrocities committed in their name? How many deaths will it take before their blood is dry? In the name of those 3,000 people the US has killed hundreds of thousands in Afghanistan already, and it's going to go on, and on. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Pseudolus Date: 19 Mar 03 - 01:26 PM So JTT, you've told us what we shouldn't have done, so tell me now, what should the US have done after 9/11? Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: PeteBoom Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:31 PM To return to the original intent of the thread and a couple of questions posed earlier - to wit, does the dropping of leaflets and other such actions "work" - Sun Tzu recommended precisely this type of actions before war commences. Granted, he's been dead some 2,500 years, but the point remains: A demoralized enemy lacks the will to combat - that is, the motivation to resist or to meet with aggression an armed, military opponent. Does it work? Last report I read (a few minutes ago) said 17 Iraqi solders surrendered Wednesday afternoon/evening, Iraq time. I'd say it works. That is 17 who will not be at their station to resist the invasion, or to be killed in the attack. Cheers - Pete |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: Greg F. Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:35 PM I'd be interested to see a cost analysis of that, Pete. At seventeen Iraquis and the cost of the printing & deployment& etc, wouldn't it have been cheaper to just pay those Iraqui soldiers, say , a million dollars each to desert?? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: DougR Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:45 PM Guest JTT: hundreds of thousands killed in Afghanstan? Where did you get those figures? Frank: If you are expecting the majority of the folks here to tell you when war is justified, I fear you will have a long wait. But perhaps I'm being unfair. I'll tell you what I think their answer would be. Never! Carol C: you may be unaware that your predjudice against Israel, when discussing the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, seems apparant to readers of your posts. It is to me, and evidently, it is to troll. Troll: evidently you are not aware that Carol C. plans to move to Canada sometime in the future. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: PeteBoom Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:49 PM As word gets out, I'd expect to see more. It does bear out part of what the theory said - reduce the will of you opposition, the less work you have defeating them. They are already defeated before the fighting commences. It also is an indication of the state of defensive forces in that location. What was notable was that the report said they came over as a group - not individually. What this is hinting is that one soldier packing it in and walking out, may well result in more joining him. Then, reducing the cost of the leaflets by the amount of munitions NOT spent on killing them... Considering the Washington administration requested $90,000,000,000 to have their little war, the leaflets are a drop in the bucket. It was a nice world, once. Pete |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: CarolC Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:54 PM Carol C: you may be unaware that your predjudice against Israel, when discussing the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, seems apparant to readers of your posts. It is to me, and evidently, it is to troll. DougR, you may be unaware that for most people in the US, an absence of prejudice against Palestinians equals prejudice against Israel. I don't blame you or troll for your ignorance of this, since you both get your news from the US media. But troll should know betther than to accuse all Jews of supporting the Israeli government for reasons that I'm not even going to bother explaining to you. Troll: evidently you are not aware that Carol C. plans to move to Canada sometime in the future. This is news to me. When is it that I'm going to be doing that? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: mg Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:40 PM The leaflets also include ways for groups to surrender..leave their vehicles, assemble 1/2 mile away. No weapons except pistols for officers (one hates to think for what)...do not move toward anyone..wait till they come to you. This doesn't create despair. It creates hope. These are a somewhat cosmopolitan people who have heard about America and know that we try to be fair and treat enemies fairly. We don't know what propaganda they have had, but there is a fair amount of information getting to them over the years. I would hate to be an Iraqi officer under these circumstances...they are in a bind.. Surrender means food, relative safety, and life. Perhaps. We never can predict it all. mg |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: DougR Date: 20 Mar 03 - 04:53 PM Sorry Carol C: I would have sworn you told us in a thread weeks ago that you had applied for dual citizenship, would soon have it, and planned to move to Canada! I was not criticizing you because you appear to favor the Palestinians by the way. If you do, I recognize that it is your right. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: CarolC Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:39 PM I don't favor the Palestinians, DougR. I wish the best for Israelis on their side of the Green Line, and I wish the best for the Palestinians in a self governing, soveriegn state on their side of the green line. I wish the best for everyone involved. I long for the day when I can say I really admire the way those people worked out their differences and learned to live side by side. Re: moving to Canada... I will be eligible for dual citizenship in a couple of years. But I have no idea whether or not I'll end up living in Canada. We certainly have no immediate plans to move there. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: USAF dropping leaflets - oh boy:-( From: katlaughing Date: 20 Mar 03 - 06:18 PM As for nine eleven and this manufactured war, this is now one of my favourite protest slogans: Our grief is not a call for war. |