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Music versus: politics and religion
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Music versus: politics and religion |
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Subject: Music versus: politics and religion From: wilco Date: 13 Feb 03 - 11:21 AM I'm in southeast USA, and people are forever inserting their personal religious or political perspectives into jams. Usually, I just remind people that "We try to avoid talking politics or religion, since many of us will leave or won't came back." How do you handle it? Last night, I got the "Have you been saved" routine again. I told them that it was none of their business; but, with the exception of being exposed to fools periodically, I felt pretty safe!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: robomatic Date: 13 Feb 03 - 11:38 AM I am a liberal Northeasterner living and working amongst a majority of fundys. On the other hand, there is a rich mixture of backgrounds among us all, a smattering of Buddhist and Bahai mixed in with some Jews, more Catholics and Mormons. So no one truly dominates while there is a thick layer of simplistic Christian patina. I also observe aloud that I feel free to denigrate someone's politics and religion but I'll never critique their music or food. Those things are important! I also do not seek to hurt anyone's feelings. That is just plain low no matter who does it. I'll dispute almost anything, but one's relationship with their perceived creator is something I won't touch in a harmful way. I also choose to 'witness' to these folk the importance of St. Charles 'Chuck' Darwin and such luminaries as Clarence Darrow and Samuel Gompers. I constantly observe that to me doubt is holy. They tolerate me probably more than I tolerate them, and, truth to tell, they are good folk. When you come down to it, it's more important in my world if someone knows how to handle a set of jumper cables than who/what/where they worship. |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: wysiwyg Date: 13 Feb 03 - 11:52 AM I think we need to treat people as we treat people, based on our own values, not based on how we perceive them to be. Most "what to do" questions, IMO, boil down to this. It's not about how we can change or influence others or situations, it's about our own ethics. Cuz we are in charge of we, not they. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: jimmyt Date: 13 Feb 03 - 12:00 PM Wilco,brother, I am with you! I sometimes have to deal with the same thing right down the road from you! I have tried to send patients to a specialist and had them aske me if the specialist was a Christian. Seems of little importance to me if I had a tooth that needed a root canal, whether it was fixed by a Christian or Jew or Muslem, for that matter. Oh well, to each his own, I guess. Thanks for inviting me up to play!! Very nice people! |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: NicoleC Date: 13 Feb 03 - 12:08 PM Tough one. You can't win if you answer the question and you can't win if you argue about it asking those kinds of questions. Something that works with me for all those except the most persistent is simply to refuse to hear the question. If that doesn't work, I might blandly look them straight in the eye and *still* not answer the question. Either way, rational folks generally get the picture that it's not a welcome topic of discussion without any hurt feelings or giving them any ammunition to argue with you. |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 13 Feb 03 - 12:16 PM The only experience I've ever had relating to religious or political proselytising at a music session was when a Christian friend's even-more-Christian wife assured my wife that she would go to Hell for being a practicing Buddhist. It was obvious from her comments that she new very little about Buddhism and regarded it much the same as she would Satanism. It's a tough call because she was genuinely expressing concern for my wife's immortal soul and my wife didn't have the time nor the inclination to give her a crash course in what Tibetan Buddhism is really about. Basically she just said, "Thanks for your concern. I'll think about it." Our regular more-or-less-Irish session of about a dozen regulars is a mish-mash of Christians (including an Episcopal minister), Buddhists, Taoists and the unchurched who also exhibit the full range of marital arrangements and sexual preferences. Oddly, there seems to be very little variance in political viewpoints. We all despise George W. Bush and think he is trying to start WWIII and that we'll all be paying for it for years to come. I'm sure that if our session were more bluegrass oriented we would have a little more politico-religious conflict. In my personal and wholly unsubstantiated view, 'grass seems to attract a much higher percentage of folks with conservative viewpoints than Irish and old-time. Seems like every bluegrass festival I go to has a few campsites festooned with Rebel flags but they're never seen at folk festivals or fiddlers' conventions. Bruce |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: Mark Clark Date: 13 Feb 03 - 12:18 PM Wilco, I remember thinking I'd like to move into your neighborhood for the music, now you've reminded me of an important reason why I might not want to do that. I remember my father telling me, when I was a boy, how to handle people who want to know whether you've been saved… just say “Yes!” with as much conviction as you can muster. You've now taken away their reason for talking with you and they'll go pester someone else. It always worked for me. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: Ebbie Date: 13 Feb 03 - 12:30 PM One of the oddest developments I ever experienced was years ago. My co-worker traveled with an itinerant evangelistic family and they were in Oregon in my town. At a strategic moment, she asked me if I was saved. I looked her in the eye and said, That's a question I consider really personal and in very bad taste. She was bruised but at least we were alone. Three weeks later they left town- absconding with money from the church they were 'serving'. I have always felt sorry for the girl, who was nice, just born into a situation... As for politics mixing with music- Juneau tends to be a liberal town, especially true of its music. On occasion someone will write and sing an acerbic anti-politician diatribe. I know of at least one occasion when a person I knew to be conservative never came back, presumably for that reason. But them's the breaks... Buddy Tabor especially writes a good many - 'Mr. Basketball Shoes' is very much to the point. Mr Basketball Shoes Owns factories in China and Viet Nam Where a 12 year girl works for nothing He don't give a damn etc |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Feb 03 - 01:42 PM So long as the songs are good songs, that's the main thing. Any mumber of great religious songs, and people don't need to believe them all the way down to enjoy singing them and listening to them. There is also any nunber of really crappy "religious" songs too, and some of them quite widely thrust on unfortunate church congregations, mostly written in the past 20 or 30 years - but the fact that they have some religious aspirations isn't what makes them bad songs. The right response to them is maybe to bury them with the kind of songs I mentioned in the last paragraph. As for politics, there's no way you can cut politics out of the rollcall of songs. If you don't like the poltics of a song, accept it, and just sing one back that puts your point if view. The exception in both cases being any songs by someone who is trying to stir up hate against people who don't deserve it. |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: wilco Date: 13 Feb 03 - 02:14 PM Intolerant politics is just as hard to take as intolerant religion. People have a hard time accepting the fact that no one particularly gives a shit what they think. We're there for the music. When peole get to be patrticularly hard-to-tolerate, I sometimes sing a song called "You Go to Your Church, and I'll go to mine." I do all of the verses at least twice, and I ask everyone to take a break or two on it. I also use the Hank Williams song, sung with deep religious fervor: "I'll never get out of this world alive." |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: jimmyt Date: 13 Feb 03 - 02:26 PM We Americans are known for our brash noisy opinions on how wonderful things are "back in the US" I am always amazed to hear these people waxing eloquent about how wonderful everything is back in Minnesota, or wherever, how the Italian food in Italy isn't like the Italian food they are used to in Baltomore. Yankees have a propensity for this same type thing, coming to the south and telling everyone how wonderful everything was back in Ohio (well, go back then!) I feel free to comment on this as I am a transplanted Yankee from Ohio. I know I digress, but it is similar to what Wilco is saying, We really don't give a shit about your religion or politics, We are here to play music. I am amazed at how lots of Christians, and politicos on both sides of the aisle feel that their mission is to tell everyone else how they should think. I think the best witness, be it religion or politics is living your life. Be it and you don't need to say it. |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Feb 03 - 02:44 PM Our Sacramento Song Circle was founded 15 years ago by a very political guy named Bob Fitch, who had spent years traveling with Martin Luther King and Cesar Chavez as a freelance photographer. Bob and I have had a love-hate relationship over the years, but I sure have to thank him for introducing me to my wife. Bob started a number of song circles - most of them emphasize group singing, and use the Rise Up Singing songbook. When I joined the song circle ten years ago, we did a lot of political songs and had a lot of fun with them. Some of Bob's songs could be antireligious, and I'd counter with A Song of Peace or How Can I Keep from Singing or The Great Storm Is Over, songs that put religious faith in a better light. The singing and the banter were lively, and we had a wonderful time. suppose the general attitude was liberal, and it may be that conservative or nonpolitical people felt left out. Bob and a few of our stronger political types left about five years ago, moving to the San Francisco Bay Area. There are still a number of us who are political, but it seemed that the song circle became apolitical. If somebody chose a political song, many people would sit and listen and look bored, and wouldn't join in the singing. Somebody sang a delightful parody against the Afghanistan war a year ago, and somebody else voiced a strong objection. So, generally, people don't sing political songs at our song circle any more. A little over five years ago, Bob and I helped my wife Christina and friends start a song circle in Auburn in the Sierra foothills. I got married to Christina a year ago, and we now host the song circle in our home. The people up here are nice, but they're mostly New Age self-help people who don't have much of an interest in politics. So again, we don't sing political songs. They don't like sea songs or drinking song or general rowdiness, either. I miss the political stuff, but I guess I have to go along with the general tenor of the group and avoid the songs that don't speak to them. Seems a shame, though. I do slip one in here and there if I think I can get away with it. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: GUEST,The Hated Guest Date: 13 Feb 03 - 02:46 PM We are told we can talk about the weather but not about religion or politics. Weather is beyond our control, but politics and religion are not. I believe the people who have cemented their power over thousands of years do not want us to challenge their power, so we are told it's impolite to talk about the ways in which they exert their power. But the only things we SHOULD be discussing of a general nature are religion and politics, because we can affect change there...unlike the weather. |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: M.Ted Date: 13 Feb 03 - 02:46 PM Sometimes it helps to point out that, "Just because someone claims they've been saved doesn't mean they've really been saved." It usually takes care of any problems that come up-- |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: GUEST,The Hated Guest Date: 13 Feb 03 - 02:50 PM Joe...what songs do you slip in? I thought about starting a thread...'greatest anti-war song ever' and would have kicked it off with 'Waltzing Mathilda' as a nominee. Just curious. |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Feb 03 - 04:19 PM Well, the three I mentioned still go over pretty well. For some reason, even apolitical people like Union Maid. Step by Step is another one that goes over well. I like Let There Be Peace on Earth, but I have come to think of Song of Peace as an almost perfect hymn to both peace and patriotism. Actually, lots of songs in the Rise Up Singing songbook can work. Lots of folkie purists condemn the book, but it's hard to get people to sing together unless they learn it from a book. I guess we do still sing a number of political songs, but we've lost the "edge" that we used to have. I keep working on it. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Feb 03 - 04:39 PM New crop coming up any day. Miner's Lifeguard. (When we go) Rolling Home No Man's Land Blackleg Miners Whch side are you on |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: Frankham Date: 13 Feb 03 - 04:41 PM My approach is really very simple. Respect for the other person's view without having to adopt it myself. Pete Seeger said it well. "It's important to get along without having to go along." Arguments never change anyone's mind. I believe that I can convey my views without rancor if I try. I stick to the facts that I know and not try to contradict anyone. Saying the other person is wrong doesn't help any discussion. In a music setting where I live, there is no problem in staying away from heated discussions about politics and religion. The music is the important thing. Joe, I have nothing against Rise Up Singing if it's used as a source for learning lyrics. I believe however that it's really important for people to learn to memorize songs and when they introduce them in a group setting, there's a kind of consideration given when the performer knows them "by heart". I have been to some song gatherings where people have their noses in the book and this is very disconcerting. There is little eye contact and somehow the concentration on the printed word detracts from the musical interaction. I make attempts to memorize as much as I can so that I can look at others, hear what others are doing musically and respond accordingly. Also, a memorized lyric is more apt to be expressed with feeling and internal ownership. Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: Bill D Date: 13 Feb 03 - 04:41 PM some folks use songs as a weapon to promote their cause, and dislike songs that are not 'comfortable' .....some will sing ANYTHING if it is a well written song. I fall into the latter group... |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: Deckman Date: 13 Feb 03 - 04:53 PM This is a very good question for this forum. I'll try to give my answer in two ways: SONGS with those subjects, and CONVERSATION with those subjects. When in a social singing situation, if a politic bent, or a religious bent begins to take over, I usually counter with songs of the opposite point of view. For example, I know enough Communist songs to really upset any Republican. And, I also know enough un-christian (is that a word?) songs to also really upset any christians that make that mistake around me. However if someone tries to convert me with words, I eagerly say that I'd really like to learn more, and can we talk now in the kitchen so that we don't disturb the music. Once in private, I usually implant several new body orifices, in several languages. They usually leave the gathering before I do. And, if the gathering is at my house, they are NEVER invited to return. CHEERS, Bob |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: Ebbie Date: 13 Feb 03 - 04:55 PM I sometimes preface a song by saying that I don't subscribe to the opinion in many of these songs but that I think it's important to believe it for the moment, i.e. if I'm going to sing a love song, I'm going to be in love for the moment, if I'm singing a protest song, I want to protest, if I want to sing a gospel song or Christian hymn, for that moment I'm going to sing it with fervor and a whole heart. I do not like singers making fun of the song they are singing or the genre in which they are singing it. |
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Subject: RE: Music versus: politics and religion From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Feb 03 - 09:01 PM You've got to be able to believe it while you're singing it anyway. And if someone wants to sing a song you can't believe in to that extent, sit and listen instead. I've done that in halls where everyone else seems to be singing along. |
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