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BS: Coincidences ???
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Subject: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 23 Jan 03 - 02:49 PM Historical coincidences – USA Presidents: 1840: William Henry Harrison (died in office) 1860: Abraham Lincoln (assassinated) 20 years later 1880: James A. Garfield (assassinated) 20 years later 1900: William McKinley (assassinated) 20 years later 1920: Warren G. Harding (died in office) 20 years later 1940: Franklin D. Roosevelt (dies in office) 20 years later 1960: John F. Kennedy (assassinated) 20 years later 1980: Ronald Reagan (survives assassination attempt 20 years later– retires with Alzheimer's) 2000: George W. Bush ???????????? Also: Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846. John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946. Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860. John F. Kennedy was elected President in 1960. Both were particularly concerned with civil rights. Both wives lost their children while living in the White House. Both were shot on a Friday. Both were shot in the head. Lincoln's secretary was named Kennedy. Kennedy's Secretary was named Lincoln. Southerners assassinated both. Southerners named Johnson succeeded both. Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in 1808. Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in 1908. John Wilkes Booth, who assassinated Lincoln, was born in 1839. Lee Harvey Oswald, who assassinated Kennedy, was born in 1939. Both assassins had double barrelled names. Both names are composed of fifteen letters. Lincoln was shot at the theatre named 'Ford'. Kennedy was shot in a car called 'Lincoln' made by 'Ford'. Booth and Oswald were assassinated before their trials. A week before Lincoln was shot, he was in Monroe, Maryland. A week before Kennedy was shot, he was in Marilyn Monroe. Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 23 Jan 03 - 02:50 PM btw, if this has been posted before, I missed it, and I apologize .... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Allan C. Date: 23 Jan 03 - 03:18 PM Yes they were and yes it was. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Bill D Date: 23 Jan 03 - 03:28 PM ...so if a fellow named John Oswald Booth, wearing a Marilyn Monroe mask, shoots Bush in the head on Friday and escapes in a Ford to Lincoln, Nebraska where he claims it was the Alzheimer's that made him do it, we can all be sure that mysterious powers are at work? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: GUEST Date: 23 Jan 03 - 03:36 PM Well, mysterious powers may have been at work regarding Reagan dodging the bullet of the 20 year curse. Some of us were counting on it then, and continue to count on it now. That 9-1-1 lottery number coming up on Sept 11 2002 in the New York lottery really does make you wonder though, doesn't it? I haven't seen or heard of any scientists or mathematicians debunking the spookiness of that one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Ebbie Date: 23 Jan 03 - 04:16 PM Although the coincidence is interesting, it isn't astounding. The odds of randomly drawing any particular three-digit combination (such as 9-1-1-) are only 1 in 1,000, and since New York holds two drawings per day, the chances that 9-1-1- would have been the winning sequence in at least one of the two lottery drawings on 11 September were approximately 1 in 500. Lottery officials said that 5,631 people had selected the symbolic numbers, and each winner took home $500. Snopes, Urban Legends |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Ed. Date: 23 Jan 03 - 04:23 PM Thanks for that Ebbie, saves me a few posts. There will still be some who refuse to believe, but that's their problem |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: GUEST Date: 23 Jan 03 - 04:24 PM The actual odds aren't reassuring to me at all though Ebbie! Like I said, I still found it very spooky that they came up on the one year anniversary. Other things that spooked me about it was the ways the terrorists used the American symbols to such astoundingly brilliant effect, ie the date of 9/11 being the same as the emergency numbers for help in the US, and the fact that they did succeed in hitting targets that so strongly symbolized the long reach of the American empire--the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. With the NY lottery coming up 9-1-1 on the one year anniversary, I decided the universe was trying to tell the US something too--that it agreed with the assessment of the US as the evil empire to much of the rest of the world, and certainly the third world. Call me superstitious, but hey--sometimes it is damn hard to rationalize these things away, and feel smug and safe again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Ed. Date: 23 Jan 03 - 04:32 PM *sigh* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jan 03 - 04:47 PM When I see that I always wonder what happened with 1780 1800 and 1820. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Ed. Date: 23 Jan 03 - 04:53 PM Please explain, McGrath |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: GUEST Date: 23 Jan 03 - 04:59 PM Ed, I'm curious about your responses to my saying I thought the NY lottery being 9-1-1 on the anniversary was spooky, is so silly. When I posted that, I was fully aware of the "rational proof" of the odds of the number turning up. Snopes has had that information there for months. You seem pretty condescending about this. Any particular reason why? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Ed. Date: 23 Jan 03 - 05:06 PM Mathematics and the nature of probability, I suppose |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Amos Date: 23 Jan 03 - 05:08 PM Guest: I hazard that the "sighh" was a reflection on the desire to attribute odd matches in significance with the superstitious election of unknown powers in the universe. The notion that the 9-1-1 numbers "must have meaning" because they matched the calendar anniversary is predicated on the very anthropomorphic notion that our arbitrary systems of symbol and significance are somehow reflections of the mechanisms of the universe. This is not the case. I in no way mean to imply that there are not mysteries in the nature of things, but they don't draw their information from English-speaking grade school math books! A A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Ed. Date: 23 Jan 03 - 05:11 PM So we agree on something, Amos! ;-) *grin* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: GUEST Date: 23 Jan 03 - 05:28 PM All well and good fellas. But here is the problem I am having with your rational justifications on why we should discount the symbolism. The terrorists themselves made choices to emphasize certain symbols. The World Trade Center and the Pentagon are definitely symbols with a lot of meanings, and those meanings are potent to many. In my opinion, another one of the symbols the terrorists chose was the date, which is the same number used within the US phone system number, to call for help in an emergency. Or are we unwilling to agree on this point, since the terrorists who carried out the attacks aren't here to "prove" they chose the date for that reason? That would be perfectly rational. We could reject the suggestion that the terrorists chose the date for it's symbolism vis a vis the emergency phone system in the US, since we will likely never be able to "prove" the supposition right or wrong. So then, what rationalizations can we create to dispossess ourselves of the symbolism and meaning the date has now in the American psyche, vis a vis the emergency phone system, regardless of what the terrorists intentions were? Do you see what I mean? Symbolism is rarely rational. It goes much deeper than that, to the heart of what we believe to be true. THAT is why I found the 9-1-1 drawing in the NY lottery on the anniversary of the attack to be spooky. Not because it was rational. But because of what the symbolism it evoked on the day. In that regard, any rationalization about the odds of it happening pales by comparison, because this is now a deep wound in the American psyche. Not in the European psyche, or the Middle East psyche--and I note Ed, that you are European. But regardless of what one thinks about 9/11 and the American empire, that symbolism resonates with all Americans. I am not normally superstitious, nor a fan of conspiracy theories involving black helicopters, that sort of thing. But I did find the NY lottery on the anniversary to have an ominous sybolic effect upon me. I could also point out that even with the odds being what they are, were still pretty long on those numbers turning up on the day, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Ebbie Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:51 PM In Europe (and the UK?) the date is 11/9. What are their emergency call numbers? Actually, GUEST, I could agree with you that it was a date chosen with deliberation- except the perpetrators were not American. On the other hand, they had spent time here so maybe they picked up on it... However, it does seem more likely that the particular date chosen had more to do with airline schedules and passenger loads than a symbolic date that most people didn't get. On the other hand, a three-digit lottery number coming up on the number's anniversary does seem odd. Why not 912? or 811? or 921? On the other hand- how many is that now?- Look at Apollo 13. There are stranger things ... McGrath, "I always wonder what happened with 1780 1800 and 1820. ", I imagine you are referring to the thread on presidential deaths every 20 years since McKinley. I say: since McKinley died of natural causes (pneumonia), meaning he had time to cogitate, Look to McKinley! Did he leave us a curse? :) Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:56 PM Well, so far as I can see, this rule about Presidents elected ever 20 years dying in office (unless they are Ronald Reagan), only started in 1840. Incidentally have any Presidents elected in other years died in office? (And in 2000 would "the curse" or whatver it is supposed to be expected to fall on Bush or on Gore?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Ebbie Date: 23 Jan 03 - 07:32 PM Now there's an interesting thought, McGrath! If Gore, and not Bush, dies sometime in the next 5 years, do you suppose Republicans will finally then accept that it was Gore, after all, who was elected President? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: GUEST,naughty guest Date: 23 Jan 03 - 07:43 PM Since we have McGraw here, as well as a small assemblage of statisticians, I will take this opportunity to point out something that has bothered me on many of these Bush/Gore threads, despite the massive drift: Gore did not win. Bush did not win. Statistically speaking, using the term "margin of error," we had a TIE in Florida. That was the cause of the constitutional crisis. Say what you will about Supreme Court bias, or any of the rest of it. But (a) we have an electoral college, and (b) Florida was a statistical TIE. It annoys me that so many of you will re-write it (including you McGraw), to claim that Gore WON. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Cluin Date: 23 Jan 03 - 07:52 PM Well we know who lost anyway. (And it wasn't either of those two gentlemen...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: GUEST,naughty guest Date: 23 Jan 03 - 07:55 PM What we learned, throughout those extremely traumatic events in Florida (more traumatic than outsiders will appreciate), is how vast that margin of error really is in the voting process, FAR in excess of Gore's alleged lead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jan 03 - 08:03 PM "Margin of error" and "Statistrical Tie" are terms which have meaning in opinion polls, but in elections they have no meaning at all. If a candidate is ahead by one vote when the counting has been completed, and after repeated recounts, that's the winner. The point in 2000 was that the counting was never completed, because one of the candidates succeeded in halting the count at a time when he was ahead. The evidence appears to inducate that, at the end of the day, the number of people in the Florida count who validly voted for Gore was actually higher than those who voted for Bush. (That's even without taking into account the thousands who were illegally prevented from voting.) On top of which, of course, there was the fact that Gore got half a million votes more than Bush overall. Which doesn't carry legal significance, but who's to say that a curse has to be bound by that kind of limitation? But let's not get into the voting scam debate. Digging out the facts about a curse are much more interesting. So what other Presidents have died in office? And what fanciful explanations have people got for it all starting in 1840 on a 20 year cycle. There have to be theories - yours is the country of the X-files after all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: GUEST,naughty Date: 23 Jan 03 - 08:10 PM I must run. (But note you flat out contradicted me then said let's not debate it.) Okay, done then, because the subject upsets me. (It could happen again, when we're not choosing between mayonnaise and Miracle Whip.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Art Thieme Date: 23 Jan 03 - 08:47 PM As my old uncle always said, "Cincidences are nothing more than God's puns!!!!!!!!!" Also, Bush LOST the American election to Al Gore and then the Supreme Court stole it for him, then handed it to him on a silver platter. If Al Gore had no more fight in him than to drop out before the next campaign ever got started, then we are better off with him gone. To all of you I now say, after Dylan, "Now is the time for your tears!!" Why aren't more people pissed off ???????? After John Kennedy was killed in 1963, a country entertainer named Buddy Starcher put together music-backed monologues showing at least a hundred so-called coincidences. Things like 'Kennedy's killer shot from a warehouse and ran to a theater.'/'Lincoln's killer killed him in a theater and ran to a warehouse.'-----------'Lincolns's vice president was Johnson and his secy. was Kennedy.' / Kennedy's veep was Johnson' and his secy. was named Lincoln.---etc. etc. etc. etc.-------- This filled up an entire LP 33 1/3 rpm album---12 cuts. All were recited by Buddy Starcher with patriotic music, like "Dixie", in the background. Keep in mind folks, there are LIES, DAMNED LIES, and STATISTICS ! -----------in that order. I know about this album because it is a part of a rather large collection of songs on the life, times and assassination of President John F. Kennedy I put together over the last 40 years. Just last week I found another song for the collection on the Country Lady's site that Massato Sakurai turned us on to as sung by Tex Ritter. That whole collection is now in the Archive of Folk Culture at the Library of Congress in Wash. D. C. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Hrothgar Date: 24 Jan 03 - 05:17 AM To solve your problem, McGrath: There was no president elected in 1780. The Revolutionary War was still running. Jefferson was elected in 1800. Served two terms, died at an advanced age on the same day as his friend, former rival, and predecessor as president, John Adams, on 04 July, 1826, the fiftieth anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. In 1820 James Monroe was re-elected for a second term as president. He also died on Independence Day, in 1841. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: leprechaun Date: 24 Jan 03 - 06:32 AM Oh yeah? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: GUEST Date: 24 Jan 03 - 11:54 AM Ebbie, again, I don't think the terrorists intentions on the choice of the date matters. What matters now is the attack took place on a date for which the symbolism for Americans is the number to call for help in an emergency. Virtually everyone who lives in this country, down to the smallest child, know the number. So for the date of the attack to coincide with that number, has symbolic significance in our society. For the number to turn up in the NY lottery, where the most deadly and destructive attack occurred, but not in any other state's lotteries on the one year anniversary (always a symbolic event) of the attacks, is pretty spooky in my book. BTW, I am aware that other parts of the world show the numeric date with the day first and month second. Again, what the rest of the world does isn't relevant to the symbolic meaning of the date of the attack in the US. The symbolism is quite potent for those who live in the country which was attacked, and isn't really of relevance to countries who show the numeric date differently, and also that don't use the same numbers for their emergency response system. It is the symbolism I find meaningful, not the very rational odds (which were still pretty long) on the number turning up on the day of the anniversary. Especially when people use it as a mere rationalization to justify dismissing the symbolism to Americans. To dismiss that symbolism, it seems to me, is pretty ignorant. Rationalist/linear/literal sorts of thinkers aren't smarter than those of us who think symbolically and metaphorically, they just like to claim they are to win arguments based upon their limited way of viewing the world, IMO. The best thinkers use both kinds of thinking to find meaning and importance in life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: GUEST,naughty guest Date: 24 Jan 03 - 01:47 PM >>"Margin of error" and "Statistical Tie" are terms which have meaning in opinion polls, but in elections they have no meaning at all. If a candidate is ahead by one vote when the counting has been completed, and after repeated recounts, that's the winner.<< Reneging on my promise to drop this irrelevant matter, let me briefly comment: What you've said above is what we have all believed all of our lives. The dirty secret unveiled in Florida is that we were naive. I don't have the time, energy, or even, admittedly, the expertise to support this argument, but I did have it explained to me twice by a person who is highly skilled in statistics. Even if the Florida recounts were handled by objective, unbiased, entirely competent personnel (which of course they weren't - let's not go there), their ability to count and recount to the last vote is far more imperfect than we gullible voters believed. This is especially true with the punch cards, but remains true even in more sophisticated counting systems. The margin of error, though I can't cite it, on a multi-million voter base exceeds the few thousand disputed chads, etc., and allegedly intimidated or frustrated voters. (BTW, There is a current spat in the news about a Broward county election official (Oliphant) and her alleged incompetence, including the recent find of a few hundred unopened absentee ballots from the primary, in a file drawer in her office.) Dan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: GUEST,naughty guest Date: 24 Jan 03 - 02:08 PM So don't rely on the representations of an anonymous internet goofball, such as myself: If it interests you, look into it (just don't rely on newspapers to get to the truth of it.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 24 Jan 03 - 03:40 PM I don't think any of this recent stuff was coincidence. The confidence of the American people is being systematically shaken and disturbed. A likely scenario, I have not,... chiefly because those are the destabilised and ungrounded thoughts that are the highest hopes of terrorist activity. The audacity of a bully is much more influential than the actual pain. When bullies conspire to userp power, in plain sight, people generally make every excuse they can to justify it to themselves... It would seem then, that an occasional 'reminder' would keep a coup safe behind a fortress of fear... So... when are we going to conspire to live together peacefully in a simple, environmentally friendly fashion? How about today? ;^) ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: DougR Date: 24 Jan 03 - 03:46 PM No Ebbie they wouldn't. Because Gore wasn't elected. *Sight* DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: 12-stringer Date: 24 Jan 03 - 04:57 PM The curse begins in 1840 because it was laid by Tecumseh, who was killed in battle while opposing (ahem) William Henry Harrison, the winner of the 1840 election. Why it also applies to subsequent presidents and not just to Harrison escapes me, but if it encourages the others, so much the better. (Note, however, that Richard Mentor Johnson was elected vice president in 1836; other than that he openly kept a slave concubine his chief claim to fame was the assertion that he had personally shot Tecumseh at the Battle of the Thames. Yet the curse of Tecumseh seems never to have stuck to Johnson except insofar as he is generally considered to have been a disgrace to the office of VP somewhat on the order of Spiro Agnew.) "There are six letters in the name LYNDON. There are also six letters in the name BATMAN. Batman is accompanied by the Boy Wonder, ROBIN, while Lyndon's sidekick is the Wonder Boy HUBIE. The names ROBIN and HUBIE have five letters," &c ("Great Men Repeat Themselves," recorded c1965 by Ben Colder (Sheb Woolley) as an answer to "History Repeats Itself." I don't know the CC but it has a kind of Don Bowman feel.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Art Thieme Date: 24 Jan 03 - 05:06 PM When BATMAN was young he was the Cubs Bat Boy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: NicoleC Date: 24 Jan 03 - 05:22 PM One other president died in office, McGrath -- Zachary Taylor died in 1850 (elected 1848). Now, the way I heard the story, it was Tecumseh's brother who cursed Harrison after Tecumseh's death. Harrison commanded the troops at the battle in which Tecumseh died in 1813, and his brother was so angry when he was elected President he cooked up the curse. However, Taylor fought successfully against Tecumseh as well in 1812 -- at Fort Harrison! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: Ebbie Date: 24 Jan 03 - 06:40 PM No Ebbie they wouldn't. Because Gore wasn't elected. DougR Given that scenario, Doug, why then does Gore die and not Bush? Riddle me that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 03 - 05:28 PM Get real. Bush was appointed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Coincidences ??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jan 03 - 07:30 PM Would getting impeached count? |