 sj |
||
|
||
Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway)
|
|
|
Subject: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: John Hardly Date: 09 Dec 02 - 07:15 PM I just had a great time playing in 4 days of informal jams (before my show opened each day). The musicians were really quite good but definitely fit in two categories -- almost exclusively "Old-timey" or almost exclusively "Celtic". We found some common ground but I know there are lots more tunes that are played on both sides of the pond. I'd appreciate any links to, or lists of tunes like this so I can print it off and keep it in my guitar case. T'would have been even more fun if we could have spent less time with "do you know...? and more time playing. Thanks! John |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: BanjoRay Date: 10 Dec 02 - 07:59 AM Some tunes cross the pond westwards and leave their titles behind - like Lord McDonalds Reel becoming Leather Britches. Some titles cross the pond and leave their tunes behind - like Rocky Road To Dublin, which sounds completely different in the Appalachians. In some tunes, both titles and tunes get changed a little or a lot - as in Wexford Lasses becoming West Fork Gals. I don't think there are many traditional tunes that were unaffected by the process - anyone know any? Cheers Ray |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: greg stephens Date: 10 Dec 02 - 08:07 AM A recent thread identified Miss McLeods Reel, Soldiers Joy, Fisher's Hornpipe, The irish washerwoman and the Sailors Hornpipe as the tunes most likely to be known in America as well as their original homes (in the interests of avoiding controversy the precise location of their original homes can be left vague). |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: dick greenhaus Date: 10 Dec 02 - 08:13 AM Well, Fisher's Hornpipe, as I understand, was an Amerian composition. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: greg stephens Date: 10 Dec 02 - 08:15 AM For tunes in the opposite direction, you would find a lot of American tunes familiar in the British Isles. Don't know where to start for a list. I guess Old Jo Clark, Cripple Creek and the Kitchen Girl would probably attract joiners-in at any session, or Midnight on the Water if you were feeling contemplative. it would depend whether you with musicians who specialise in maerican tunes, or just all-purpose session fiddlers. An awful lot of the more athletic fiddlers would have a stab at the Orange Blossom Special, though it is very much not a join-in tune. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: greg stephens Date: 10 Dec 02 - 08:20 AM Was the Fisher's Hornpipe American? I've always seen it attributed to the German musician Fishar, who worked in England. And it was originally entitled Admiral Howe's Hornpipe, which would surely not have endeared it to an American audience, though it soon acclimatised with a title-change to Fisher's. Maybe that story's wrong: wwhat have you got on this, Dick? |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 10 Dec 02 - 08:23 AM A well known German sailor song ridiculing the crews of Hamburg clippers is the Hamborger Veermaster (the Hamburg four-master). It is definitely formed after the model of the song Sacramento (2. version here. The tune of the Camptown Ladies is slightly modified, the chorus is preserved in the original English in the German version. A German tune brought over to the States is O Tannenbaum (oh fir tree. The fir is often used as Xmas tree). I heard it used with a fire fighters' song from the East Coast: The firemen's band, the firemen's band, here's my heart and here's my hand. O do you really, really think that we should take another drink? ... [Oh man, I still grow thirsty writing this.] Wilfried |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: GUEST,Russ Date: 10 Dec 02 - 08:50 AM I've heard that "Old Molly Hare" is known on the east side as "Fairy Reel." |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: greg stephens Date: 10 Dec 02 - 08:54 AM Russ that's a perfect one for the list, a tune known by everyone. I call it the Fairy Dance, but whatever the title, everyone seems to play the tune. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: Sorcha Date: 10 Dec 02 - 09:15 AM Isn't Red Haired Boy/Gilderoy on the list somewhere? And, I just sent Oakley 3 fairly old American tunes...Baldwin County, When the leaves Begin to Turn Brown and Black Raven Polka. Don't know if that counts or not..... |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: greg stephens Date: 10 Dec 02 - 09:33 AM Sorcha, your mention of the Redhaired Boy/Gilderoy is interesting. Is this well-known in America way-back...ie to the oldtime fiddlers say more than a 100 years ago? Or does it come into the category of tunes that have caught on widely recently, with the rise of interest in Celtic material in the post 1960 folk revival? |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: Sorcha Date: 10 Dec 02 - 09:43 AM I don't know--I have only know of it for about 50 yrs........are you looking for stuff that crossed "historically" or just stuff that has crossed? I'll see what Fiddlers Companion has to say about Red Haired.... |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: Sorcha Date: 10 Dec 02 - 09:48 AM Way too much info over there to paste here, but it does appear to have been in US for almost 100 yrs. Red Haired Boy info at Fiddlers Companion. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: John Hardly Date: 10 Dec 02 - 10:54 AM thanks for the input so far! The common ground we found included "Red-Haired Boy" (li'l beggerman?)(if Charles Shultz had written it wouldn't it be "Li'l Red-Haired Girl"?) and "Whiskey 'for Breakfast". Regardless of origin, for whatever reason both sides knew Fisher's Hornpipe. Because it is so easy to pick up we all played Old Joe Clark, though the old-timey crowd knew it better. It's also probable that everyone was sort of familar with the tunes from an American perspective because even the Celtic players were American. F'rinstance, I started out playing "The Girl(Gal) I Left Behind" and soon all were able to join in. Interesting that "Soldier's Joy" was brought up. The dulcimer player and I started playing it and it wasn't familiar to anyone else. Same with Salt Creek, Eighth of January, Blackberry Blossom, Arkansas Tarveler. Nobody knows "Molly Bloom". *grin* Both sides did know "Over The Waterfall" but perhaps that's just because it's the ultimate beginning fiddler's tune? .....oh, and Celtic fiddlers don't play the blues. *grin* |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: greg stephens Date: 10 Dec 02 - 11:12 AM Thanks for that info Sorcha.John Hardly, from your posts it's not clear to me where you fit in geographically and stylistically? Where were the sessions, and where did you fit in? "Over the waterfall" is a good choice. I hear it at loads of English sessions, and Big Mick's Irish American CD has just arrived in the post and it's the title track. I find Stephen Foster/minstrel stuff is fine at trans-Atlantic/ cross-cultural sessions. Most people have Camptown Races, Old Folks at Home, So Early in the morning and O Susanna lurking in their minds, even if they never play them. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: greg stephens Date: 10 Dec 02 - 11:16 AM Redwing is another good one. Everyone knows it, and even if they dont you can pick it up as you go along, like Old Jo Clark. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: BanjoRay Date: 10 Dec 02 - 11:17 AM I thought Whiskey Before Breakfast was originally a tune from the Canadian East coast called Spirits Of The Morning. Cheers Ray |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: John Hardly Date: 10 Dec 02 - 11:29 AM hey, I LOVE the Stephen Foster idea! I'll try that next time 'cause I bet you are right. I are a Hoosier. I've been learning fiddle tunes on guitar and mandolin for the past 3-4 years and have about 20 true fiddle tunes I can play on guitar (most well enough, and up to speed, to play in a jam) and about 12-14 on mandolin. Then there's lots of "folk" type stuff I'm very comfortable playing (because, though the fiddle tune playing is relatively new to me, I've played guitar for a long time). I have been trying to up the pace at which I'm learning the tunes and another reason I would like to compile this sort of informal list is that I get double use out of learning tunes that would fit in with either type of jam (though I'm aware that, as strict as some fiddle tune jams might be to toe the line of traditional play, the Celtic sessions are even more so!). It's also nice to know where the tunes originate. It sometimes can give you a hint for a direction to go when arranging the tune, as well as a good hint at what might sound either good or appropriate for a rhythm part (like playing chords without the third for Celtic songs f'rinstance) I'm very schizophrenic in my learning and practice (f'rinstance, I'm currently learning "June Apple" and arranging a fingerstyle break for "Marie" by Randy Newman. *grin*) .....but I loved you the first time I saw you, And I always will love you Marie. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: John Hardly Date: 11 Dec 02 - 10:27 AM how 'bout "Cluck Old Hen", Bonaparte Crossing the Rockies, June Apple and other "modal" tunes? Do they have a corresponding European name? |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: greg stephens Date: 11 Dec 02 - 10:55 AM I only know Cluck Old Hen and June Apple as American tunes; while there are plenty of British tunes in the same sort of vein I cant think of anything offhand you could call the same tune as either of those.But dont take my word for it(or anyone's).There are uncountable tunes over here(well, in the many thousands) from each of England, Scotland, wales and Ireland, and who's heard them all?? Bonaparte Crossing the Rocky Mountains(in the Fiddlers Fakebook) is a version of Gilderoy(The yellow Haired Boy).Is that the one you mean? We've different tunes over our side called Boney Crossing the Rhine, and Boney Crossing the Alps, as well. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: Richie Date: 11 Dec 02 - 11:05 AM The minstrel shows played in England in the mid to late 1800's. Tunes like "Such a-getting Upstairs," "Buffalo Gals," "Liza Jane," "Keemo Kimo" "Angelina Baker," "Jim Along Josey" were popular in both countries. I've got 6 different versions of "Red Haired Boy" lyrics including "Geezer and the Guiser," "Guilderoy," "Little Beggarman" and "Old Soldier." Then there are many folk songs like "Froggie" that crossed over. The fiddle tune list of cross-overs is huge. Look through a Fiddler's Companion. Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: Rapparee Date: 11 Dec 02 - 11:31 AM I understand that the Shaker song "It's a gift to be simple" crossed the Atlantic to England and came back as "Lord of the Dance." (Not the God-awful Michael Flatley show, but the hymn.) Both are great songs AND great tunes. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: CraigS Date: 11 Dec 02 - 08:30 PM There was a British Holiday Camp chain called Butlins that tried to introduce square dancing to Britain in the 50s. As a result, many British fiddlers can play "The Arkansas Traveller" and "Two's Company, Three's a crowd" because Butlins gave the record away to campers. "Drowsy Maggie" also seems quite international. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: dick greenhaus Date: 12 Dec 02 - 11:29 AM Greg- I have no firm info on the origen of Fisher's Hornpipe. Margot Mayo, many yers ago told me it wasw American in origin, and I didn't argue. Rosin the Beau appears to have originated in America. And Gilderoy was a well-known fife tune during the Civil War. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: IanC Date: 12 Dec 02 - 11:57 AM Dick When did Rosin the Beau originated in America? :-) |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: IanC Date: 12 Dec 02 - 12:19 PM Sorry - posted before I meant to ... It's just that the earliest version of the song I know of is the one printed by Walker of Durham in 1838, obviously for the tune. I suspect, though, that the tune is older as it has the feel of one of the old 6/4 "jiggs" used for English country dancing (as in Playford). It's a real shame that the Forum Search isn;t working ... could check if there was more info on it. :-) |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: Banjo-Flower Date: 12 Dec 02 - 06:22 PM Isn't Over the waterfall(U S A) a version of Dark girl dressed in blue(u k) Gerry |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: TunesThatCrossThePond(eitherway) From: greg stephens Date: 12 Dec 02 - 07:45 PM I always used to know "Over the Waterfall" as "The pretty little girl all dressed in blue" when I first learned it a long time ago. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: Midnight On The Water From: GUEST Date: 16 Apr 03 - 09:21 AM What year was this tune written? |
| Share Thread: |