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Help! Final mixing of my CD!!!
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Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! |
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Subject: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: Maryrrf Date: 21 Nov 02 - 01:16 PM I've finally put together a real CD and it's been an odyssey - part of it recorded here in the States and part of it in Ireland. I won't mention all the obstacles I've overcome so far but now I'm facing (hopefully) the last. The guy who is doing the mastering told me to take it home and listen to it on different CD players and make a final decision on the levels, etc and any little tweaks I want. BUT IT SOUNDS SO DIFFERENT ON DIFFERENT PLAYERS! It sounds great in my car but like crap on my portable. I noticed that pretty much everything sounds like crap on the portable, though (even though it's a Sony) so I guess I should disregard that one. It sounds okay on the computer. I'm going to a friend's house tonight and she has two CD players that I'll listen to. But for example, sometimes the percussion sounds nice and bassy, and on another player it sounds like a light tap. On some players I can hardly hear the whistle, but in the car it comes through nice and clear. How the heck can I decide about the levels of the whistle and fiddle and everything else?? Has anyone done this who could give me some advice? |
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Subject: RE: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: GUEST,Claire Date: 21 Nov 02 - 01:48 PM This is a tough one, but here are a few tips I learned from our last cd. A sound technician will certainly have a better handle on this, but here goes. If you are playing it through a poor system (computer, small box), the sound quality is very limited by the speaker quality, which is generally poor. That means it will sound better, in a way, because the bad things won't be as obvious, everything sort of get levelled out. On the other hand, it might also sound really tinny or you might lose certain frequencies (the whistle?). If you listen on an excellent system (studio) you will hear a more true representation of the sound. However, hardly any one else is ever going to play it in a studio type system. Head phones on a nice system is a good starting place. Beyond the levels, listen to see if you get separation of the sound. For most types of music, there should be a sense that the instruments are placed in the room (front to back, side to side). Listen for tone in the instruments (this can be majorly tweeked in the mastering process). Then you can take it to your car and computer, note the discrepancies and ask your mastering guy about what your hearing and why. Good luck, and I would be very interested to hear what you and others say about this. My band is going for another one in the spring, so it is already on my mind. Claire |
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Subject: RE: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: Bullfrog Jones Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:34 PM Old radio producers (of whom I am one) would tell you to put it through the worst possible sound/speaker system you can find. If it sounds good through that, go with it. I had the same experience with the last two Bullfrogs CDs. The first thing I heard them through was the car stereo on the way home from the studio, and they sounded great through that, better than through 'proper' stereos. Now they sound good through any stereo! That's my three & sixpenceworth (taking inflation into account). BJ |
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Subject: RE: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: NicoleC Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:50 PM I agree with BJ -- one of the reasons why decent studios have several sets of speakers, not all of which are good ones. But if you are at the mastering process, there's only so much to do at this level. You should have done some listening while it was being mixed down. A good mastering tech is a marvel, but s/he can only work with what they have. However, you also need to consider volume levels in addition to speaker types. Most kinds of music have a typical listening volume, which is improtant to consider, but a general rule of thumb is that if it sounds good quiet, it'll still sound good loud. (There are technical and physical reasons for this, but I'll only bore anyone with the details if they ask.) P.S. I'd avoid spending too much time evaluating with headphones; you hear differently than you would in an open environment. |
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Subject: RE: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: Bullfrog Jones Date: 21 Nov 02 - 04:05 PM I agree with NicoleC! Don't rely on headphones. BJ |
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Subject: RE: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: Amos Date: 21 Nov 02 - 04:27 PM Mary: Get a commercial CD you really like the mix on. Play it on the system of choice and alternate back and forth with your own CD. Compare the levels, degree of echo, reverb, bass, etc. using the commercial CD as a sort of baseline to compare your mix to. That way it is independent of the system you're playing it on since the system will impact both disks the same, more or less. A |
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Subject: RE: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: Maryrrf Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:54 PM I think I got confused. It isn't being mastered now - we're still mixing. I can still adjust levels of the different instruments. I just finished listening to it on two more systems. On the smaller one I couldn't hear the bodhran at all. On the big one it came through just perfectly. If you mix it so it sounds good on a small crappy system, won't it be all exaggerated on a good one???? I'm going to call my sound guy tomorrow! Meanwhile I'll try Amos's suggestion. |
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Subject: RE: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: GUEST Date: 21 Nov 02 - 10:44 PM Go for the middle ground, what does it sound like on a 'bog standard' sound system, nothing too crappy, but nothing too sophisticated? Keep the studio 'tweaking' to an absolute minimum. I like music to sound 'live', not hyped up with loads of reverb etc, it gives me an idea of what a live performance wil be like & then I'll pay to go & see the artists. |
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Subject: RE: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: NicoleC Date: 21 Nov 02 - 10:56 PM Good! You're still mixing! You've got a lot of freedom left. The reason you didn't hear the bodhran at all on the cheap system was because it was unlikely to have much bass response. The expensive system isn't likely to have huge bass response -- so in this case, it's a good call to bring the bass up, just don't go crazy. However, your engineer may want to boost the mid-range of the bodhran track a little to help the cheaper systems. This is the kind of trade-off and balancing that your engineer should understand (and may do so very well!), but you should keep it in mind, too. GUEST is right -- you need to mix for a median system, keeping in mind what/how/where your typical listener is likely to do, and trying to include the chheap and great systems as much as you can. |
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Subject: RE: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: Amos Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:29 PM Gee, Nicole, you're remarkable!! Dunno many gals who can outargue a ward heeler and also diagnose an audio track!! LOL!! Keep on!! I'm impressed! A |
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Subject: RE: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: NicoleC Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:59 PM I wasn't always a computer geek for a living :) Political rabble-rousing is just a hobby. |
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Subject: For Claire (Guest) From: Tiger Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:00 AM "Listen for tone in the instruments (this can be majorly tweeked in the mastering process)." Can you tell me what you mean, here - what you mean by 'tone'? |
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Subject: RE: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: GUEST,Claire Date: 22 Nov 02 - 01:54 PM Hi again, I'm afraid I mixed up the terms too. I should have said the mixing process can tweak the tone. What do I mean by tone? I noticed this mostly in the fiddle and vocals, and much less on plucked instruments (banjo, mando). I too prefer a natural sounding instrumentation and vocal, but I am not sure what the technical definition of tone is. I use it to indicate the right balance between lower and higher frequencies so that the instrument or voice sounds rich,not too sharp, not too bassy, and natural. We had a very hard time getting our studio to make the fiddle sound "right" even though we brought in cds with the tonal quality that we wanted. It is harder for me to judge on my own vocal because I am singing and everything sounds different in your head. As for the advice on headphones. I still suggest using them to help you understand the cd mix. I agree with other posters that it is also good to listen to the the cd through a median level stereo, but what the heck that actually is, is questionable. The headphones allow you to hear a clearer sound, so that you can evaluate things like the tone of the instruments, clarity, and the balance between the instruments and in space, without the interference of the ambient sounds in the room, and without the pressure of listening carefully on studio time. At any rate, there are probably a hundred oppinions on these subjects. Overall - I suggest that you don't make concessions to make the computer sound system sound its best, if it means that the good system sounds un balanced. Claire |
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Subject: RE: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: harpmaker Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:34 PM I think NicoleC is spot on, and good advice from other post's will get you a great disc. Best of luck. I have recorded lots of music, not much I can add here. just that,,ohh never mind! |
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Subject: RE: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: NicoleC Date: 23 Nov 02 - 01:30 AM "Tone" is exactly the same as you would think of when picking out an instrument. Ideally, the tape should sound exactly like the instrument live, although this doesn't happen 100% very often. Every mic, every pre-emp, every console channel, cable, etc. will color the tone, just like different strings or picks will change the tonal characteristics of a guitar. Sometimes, despite all efforts, a good instrument sounds poor on tape or just not as good as you'd like. Being rushed for setup-time or not having a good supply of mics to choose from is usually the cause. (If it's *really* bad, you may want to consider overdubbing it.) You may be able to help it out a little in the mixing process. Since you aren't familiar with sound theory, keep a notepad of general notes when you listen top you rough mix. "Guitar sounds muddy on Track #1, vocals sound thin during chorus of track #2, etc. This gives you specific goals to address and you can explain why -- so your expensive studio time will be more productive. Then when you go back into the studio, you can solo each of the instruments you were concerned with, and let the engineer tweak based on your notes. Then bring everything back into the mix and make adjustments, because the sum is rarely the total of it's parts. Okay, I know this is obvious, but many people walk into a studio thinking it's magic. A lousy sounding instrument will sound lousy on tape. A lousy player will sound lousy on tape. Any flaws in a sound will often be more obvious than they are in person, because tape "hears" differently. And speakers reproduce sound differently than a live instrument. 'Tis the nature of the beast. Your goal should be to sound like YOU, not the way you wish you sounded. You know you have a great recording when the technology becomes transparent. (OTOH, a poor engineer or incappropriate equipment can make the best instrument sound awful. You remember the Far Side cartoon with the "Suck" knob? True...) Uh, the point of this rambling monologue was to say, "So relax and have fun with it!" If you get too tense and can't find the mix or sound you want, get the opinion of folks that know your music and have opinions you feel you can trust. Preferably people that haven't been involved with the session and have fresh ears. 'Cause it's hard to let go sometimes and trust that the music speaks for itself, even when (and perhaps especially when) it isn't perfect. And we are always our own worst critics. |
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Subject: RE: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: georgeward Date: 23 Nov 02 - 03:05 AM I would only add -re: Claire's post above - that in my experience mic position can have a big effect on what you get on tape from a fiddle in particular. True for every instrument. But it seems particularly worthwhile to experiment a bit with the position of whatever mics you have when recording a fiddle. Does this accord with anyone else's experience ? |
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Subject: RE: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: Fortunato Date: 23 Nov 02 - 07:24 PM MaryrrF, what you might fe looking for is a producer. Maybe you don't have a friend in the business, but think about it. Who in the Irish family of musicians between here and Richmond do you know that's recorded lots? Someone whose CDs you have enjoyed? Someone who knows the recording process and your genre well? If there is such a person you might consider having them come to listen to your rough mixes and give you advice, or better yet, pay them a fee to come to the studio and produce. Knowing the genre is IMPORTANT. Another thought, is there a CD you admire the sound of? One with similiar instrumentation? Is your engineer capable of reproducing the 'sound' of that CD? Last idea. |
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Subject: RE: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: Maryrrf Date: 23 Nov 02 - 07:46 PM Thanks to everybody for the suggestions. I spent yesterday listening to the CD on different players and making notes, and also ran it by a friend who has some background in music and recording - so she was able to give me a second opinion and independently we arrived at similar conclusions. I've gathered several CD's that have good mixes and I'll have another mixing session at the studio on Monday - I'm keeping my fingers crossed. The CD's I'll bring should give the studio guy a good idea as to what I'm looking for. I think I've put my finger on the main problem which is that the instruments sound squashed together and not separated and clear. He should be able to fix this, I think. There aren't a whole lot of instruments - just guitar, bodhran, bones, a bit of whistle, fiddle and mandolin and the instruments were used more to enhance - I guess what I'm saying is its more of a ballad CD with emphasis on the vocals. I have to resist the urge to rush it in order to get it out before Christmas (I'll lose a lot of sales if I don't) but it's more important to have the CD sounding good. Again, thanks to everyone for the advice. |
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Subject: RE: Help! Final mixing of my CD!!! From: Paul G. Date: 23 Nov 02 - 09:57 PM Wow -- Fortunato is right on the money. We're in the process of completing our new recording now as well -- some tunes still being recorded, some done and being mixed. We have a producer/engineer that we have worked with on 4 previous projects, both solo and with the band...he has an amazing ear that I/we trust implicitly. A rare find, I suppose, but I think we'd be runnng in circles an arguing constantly among ourselves about the mixes without him. It's not cheap -- we're getting regular reference mixes from him which are useful for identfying "musical" tweaks we need to make. Good advise for the future -- find someone you can trust to make your stuff sound it's best. Ask artists you know and respect who they use. Then close your eyes, click your heels together 3 times, cross your fingers, and dive in. Much luck! It'll be great. Paul |
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