 sj |
||
|
||
Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers'
|
|
|
Subject: Where are "The Two Sinkers/Sunkers" From: GUEST,Nick Date: 26 Sep 02 - 01:29 PM I tried to search for threads that would answer this question but had no luck. It seem likely this thread is out there somewhere but I have not found it (them), but the question is...... In the various different versions of "Rant & Roar" "Towasco" "Yankee Whalermen" (Perhaps Ladies of Spain as well.. not sure about that one) etc. that I have heard there is a line that goes... "Untill we strikes bottom inside the two sunkers/sinkers it's straight through the channel it's ......placename...we'll go." Where/What are the two sunkers/sinkers? Just wondering out loud Thanks, Nick |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 26 Sep 02 - 01:39 PM In the version I've heard, sung by A. L. Lloyd and Ewan McColl, it's in Huasco, which is in Peru or maybe Chile. I looked it up once. There was another place name: "I went to a dance last year in old Tumbez, Tumbez is also west coast South America. Dave Oesterreich |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 26 Sep 02 - 01:41 PM Lloyd and McColl sang it as: "Until we see bottom between the two sinkers Maybe it's Huasca rather than Huasco; I forget. I know I looked it up at one time. Dave Oesterreich |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: GUEST,Nick Date: 26 Sep 02 - 01:54 PM "Towasko" was a wrong title, but you know the tune. So where/what are the sunkers? Are there different sunkers for different places, are they just generic name for rocks on both sides of a channel that might sink you ? Nick |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Micca Date: 26 Sep 02 - 02:40 PM I've always understood this to mean the 2 marker buoys at the mouth of the river/harbour that mark the navigable channel and thought the place name was Atahuasco, which I understood was on the Guayaquil river estuary in Ecuador from which the whalers went out hunting whales in the Humboldt current off the South American coast |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: GUEST,John Nolan Date: 26 Sep 02 - 07:44 PM Sunkers are submerged rocks according to my uncle, who struck a few, |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: GUEST,Vinland Date: 26 Sep 02 - 08:37 PM Nick, The sunkers are submerged rocks you need to avoid when leaving or entering a harbour. The Newfoundland version, The Ryans and the Pittmans( or We'll Rant and We'll Roar) was written by Henry W. LeMessurier in the 1880s and refers to Toslow in Placentia Bay. I wonder if Towasco is from this or the other way round. Also the verse "I went to a dance last year in old Tumbez, There was plenty of girls there as fine as you'd wish! There was one pretty maiden a-chewin' tobacca Just like a young kitten a-chewin' fresh fish!" is very similar to the Nfld version which goes: "I went to a dance last year in Fox Harbour...." There are 10 verses and a chorus in the Nfld version. If you can't find it, I'll send it to you. It seems this shanty travelled the world, with different verses in each port. No wonder, it's a great tune. EW
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Jon Bartlett Date: 27 Sep 02 - 02:02 AM Yes, it travelled as itself and also in disguise: We'll rant and we'll roar like trueborn young whalermen/...like true Newfoundlanders/... like true Queensland drovers, for example. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Bob Bolton Date: 27 Sep 02 - 02:50 AM G'day Jon G. Bartlett, To add another, Saul Mendelsohn - the author of The Queensland Drovers set it to the tune of "The True British Sailor" which, presumably said " ... We'll rant and we'll roar like true British sailors." Nothing was as mobile as a sailors' song, back in those days! Regards, Bob Bolton |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Mr Happy Date: 27 Sep 02 - 02:52 AM we'll rant and we'll roar, like true born youngwhalermen, we'll rant and we'll roar, on deck or below, until we see bottom inside the two sinkers, straight up the channel to Wesker we'll go |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: IanC Date: 27 Sep 02 - 06:05 AM The two sinkers are two weights on the end of the rope used to fathom the depth. When you chuck the rope in, both disappear until you reach shallow water (off a coast), when the top one stays clear of the water. At this point, you can "see the bottom" between the 2 sinkers. It means that after a long time on the open sea, you've struck land (usually shortly before coming into harbour or a river estuary). I thought everybody knew this! :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Willie-O Date: 27 Sep 02 - 08:54 AM I'm with Vinland on this. Toslow. Now if this was your home harbour, you wouldn't be mucking around with sounding leads unless there was a pea soup fog interfering with visibilty, which pretty much means yer in Newfoundland... Willie-O |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: EBarnacle1 Date: 27 Sep 02 - 10:24 AM I've been doing sounding for many years and never heard of that one. I seems like an interesting way to go. Why, though would anyone make the leadsman's job harder when the standard sounding lead and marked line does the job so well? |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: GUEST,Russ McKenzie Date: 21 Aug 07 - 06:42 PM It's a shanty that I'm remembering from some years ago. My recolection of the lyric is ... "We'll rant and we'll roar like true born young whalermen We'll rant and we'll roar on deck and below. Untill we strike bottom between the two sinkers then it's straight up the channel to Hoskar we'll go" Can't guarantee the spell of Hoskar, but I believe it to be a whaling port in South America. Striking bottom between to two sinkers is sounding depth to confirm that the ship is in the channel. |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Charley Noble Date: 21 Aug 07 - 08:27 PM Well, at least we've got the lead out in this thread. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: The Walrus Date: 21 Aug 07 - 08:32 PM I thought the line was "...Until we strike bottom in sight of two sinkers And straight up the channel to the West'ard we'll go..." Slightly more general than those quoted. W |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: kendall Date: 21 Aug 07 - 08:37 PM I learned this as Toslow in Newfoundland. |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Effsee Date: 21 Aug 07 - 09:08 PM Many years ago, more than I care to remember, I saw Ewan MacColl introduce this song and tell the story of the lead sinkers being used to indicate the depth of the water, and he said it had nothing to do with Arnold...Wesker(?)...but was the pronunciation of Huesco, a whaling port in South America. |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Nick E Date: 22 Aug 07 - 06:47 PM Now I was more than a bit surprised to see this thread pop up, as I started it about 5 years ago. I had no idea I had been happily wasting my time here for that long! |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Bob the Postman Date: 22 Aug 07 - 07:40 PM The Newfoundland version in Digitrad. |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Micca Date: 22 Aug 07 - 08:21 PM There is a good version of the "South America" version on the Dransfields, retrospective "Up to Now" Info Here |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Micca Date: 22 Aug 07 - 08:23 PM Sorry where it is referred to as "The Talchuano Girls" |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: GUEST,mg Date: 22 Aug 07 - 09:15 PM Rudyard Kipling did an obvious version..or original? although I doubt it somewhat. We'll something and something like little tin turtles if I recall. mg |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Bob Bolton Date: 23 Aug 07 - 06:01 AM G'day mg, I would imagine a parody / version / local verse to the well-known Charles Dibdin song The True British Sailor would be obvious fare from Kipling. Dibdin's sea songs were considered by the British Admiralty to be "better than 50 press gangs" at recruiting for the Royal Navy! For Kiplinhg to throw in a new set of words, related to the story in hand, meant that every reader (then ... in his British readership...) would already hear the tune in their head. Regards, Bob |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: GUEST,edthefolkie Date: 23 Aug 07 - 06:41 AM I'd go with the rock theory. Micca, I'd echo your remarks re the Dransfields' version. It's magnificent, as is most of the other stuff in the box. Come back Bazza and Robin, we need you! I originally came across this song, or a version of it, in one of Arthur Ransome's books, where it was called "Spanish Ladies". Similar words but the navigational references are to the English Channel - Ushant, Scilly etc. Anybody remember Quint (Robert Shaw) singing "Spanish Ladies" in "Jaws"? (Slight thread creep there, sorry.) |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Snuffy Date: 23 Aug 07 - 09:30 AM Huasco Huasco Huasco |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: GUEST,J. D. Billett Date: 24 Dec 07 - 10:17 AM What fun to stumble onto this thread! If it helps, I've seen the "Two Sunkers" associated with the the two "Toslow Rocks", which are just outside Toslow Cove, the narrow-necked fjord referred to as "the wall with the hole in" in the Newfoundland version of the song. Here's a link to a topographical map of the Toslow Rocks. Jesse |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Amos Date: 24 Dec 07 - 10:54 AM While striking bottom is done by heaving the lead, it usually has only one sinker on the line, a tapered thing like a sash-weight, with a hollow cup indented on the bottom for the wax plug used to collect bottom sample. I have never seen or heard of a two-lead method, and I think this is an invention born of misunderstanding. Sinkers, or sunkers, are submerged rocks, so named because they have a nasty habit of sunkin' yer boot when you least expect it. A |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: dick greenhaus Date: 24 Dec 07 - 12:17 PM The son's history, as far as I can find out, began with the British Navy's "Farewell and Adieu to You Spanish Ladies". A.L. Lloyd collected the parody "Telchuana Girls" which seems to be the fountainhead for all the other regional variants. The Newfoundland version, The Ryans and the Pittmans( or We'll Rant and We'll Roar) was written by Henry W. LeMessurier in the 1880s, polishing off a widely-circulated song. |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Les from Hull Date: 24 Dec 07 - 12:42 PM Amos - the original song mentions '45 fathoms with a white sandy bottom', indicating the use of a deep-sea lead as you mention. This might have been a reason for MacColl's mistake about the sinkers. Or perhaps it was just that he was an opinionated... |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: GUEST,J. D. Billett Date: 26 Dec 07 - 03:07 PM I ought to have been explicit in my previous post about the Toslow Rocks that they probably cannot be the original "sunkers" of the Rant and Roar song tradition. But LeMessurier's choice of Toslow as his womanizing sea-cook's final destination was eminently appropriate given that there are two rocks (albeit not submerged) just outside Toslow Cove, and I wonder if he had these in mind when he penned his verses. Then again, he might just have liked the assonant sound of "to Toslow we'll go" after "on deck and below", which, it must be said, is a gratifying aspect of the Newfoundland version -- and it was in any case useful given the frequent appearance of the surname "Tibbo" at line ends in Newfoundland folk songs! Jesse |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: dick greenhaus Date: 26 Dec 07 - 05:33 PM The older versions took their soundings "In the Channel of old England". No sunkers. |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Dave Hanson Date: 27 Dec 07 - 02:48 AM According to Stan Hugill in ' Sailortown ' Huasco is one of the guano or nitrate ports in Chile, in fact it's just north of Talcuhuano. eric |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: GUEST,Newfi Singer Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:51 AM We'll since I see alot of posts here can't hurt to post mine:) I grew up singing that song in choir and I vaguely remember certain parts of the song. The version I know was written in a book with lots of other songs including "silver bells" and a few other famous tunes.The lyrics are "Until we see bottom inside the two sunkers, its straight through the channel to toslow we'll go". As a kid I understood this to mean that in the harbor there are shipwrecked vessels on or near the beach which sailors use to indicate how high the tide was. The verse I just gave would mean if they can see bottom of the sunkers then the tide is too low to set sail. |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Les from Hull Date: 19 Aug 10 - 10:36 AM I believe that most sailors are well aware of the state of the tide before they leave harbour. |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: GUEST,Seonaid Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:21 PM The idea of two weights on the line to measure depth immediately calls to mind the Mississppi riverboat call of "mark twain" -- two fathoms -- but this would hardly be applicable to anything navigable by a hull over 12 feet deep! |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: oldstrings Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:28 PM As this topic remains up way past its bedtime, here's my $.02 worth: Amos makes it fairly clear, "Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Amos - PM Date: 24 Dec 07 - 10:54 AM While striking bottom is done by heaving the lead, it usually has only one sinker on the line, a tapered thing like a sash-weight, with a hollow cup indented on the bottom for the wax plug used to collect bottom sample. I have never seen or heard of a two-lead method, and I think this is an invention born of misunderstanding. Sinkers, or sunkers, are submerged rocks, so named because they have a nasty habit of sunkin' yer boot when you least expect it." -except that it is usually called "sounding", not "striking bottom". STRIKE, to, the act of lowering the colours of a warship in battle as an indication of surrender. A vessel also strikes soundings when she can reach the bottom with a deep-sea lead when coming in from sea. This is today generally accepted as the 100 fathom contour, and a ship is in soundings when she is inside this line. -The Oxford Companion To Ships And The Sea. Striking soundings (at 600ft.) is not at all the same as striking bottom, except perhaps in the minds of landlubbers in "an invention born of misunderstanding" as Amos says. This is a common enough phenomenon, as Rod Stradling shows in his magazine Musical Traditions: http://www.mustrad.org.uk/mondegre.htm It would not surprise me if a singer changed "see bottom" to "sight bottom", and another heard it as "strike bottom". As a sailor, "striking bottom" is the last thing I want to think about. Edith Fowke printed Clara O'Driscoll's (1899-1978) version for The Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs. I don't know if we have a higher authority. We'll rant and we'll roar like true Newfoundlanders, We'll rant and we'll roar on deck and below; Until we see bottom inside of two sunkers, Then straight through the channel to Toslow we'll go. |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: GUEST,mg Date: 16 Dec 10 - 10:47 PM Farewell and adieu to you, Harwich Ladies, Farewell and adieu to you, ladies ashore! For we've received orders to work to the eastward Where we hope in a short time to strafe 'em some more. We'll duck and we'll dive like little tin turtles, We'll duck and we'll dive underneath the North Seas, Until we strike something that doesn't expect us. From here to Cuxhaven it's go as you please! The first thing we did was to dock in a minefield, Which isn't a place where repairs should be done; And there we lay doggo in twelve-fathom water With tri-nitro-toluol hogging our run. The next thing we did, we rose under a Zeppelin, With his shiny big belly half blocking the sky. But what in the—Heavens can you do with six-pounders? So we fired what we had and we bade him good-bye. by Kipling Also there was one Stan James used to sing..Australian...some cattle station. mg |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: puck Date: 17 Dec 10 - 11:45 AM "While striking bottom is done by heaving the lead, it usually has only one sinker on the line, a tapered thing like a sash-weight, with a hollow cup indented on the bottom for the wax plug used to collect bottom sample. I have never seen or heard of a two-lead method, and I think this is an invention born of misunderstanding." Amos' explanation sounds sound to me! It may be that the operation was carried out twice! The second time to confirm the first reading! P |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: SuperDave Date: 14 Nov 18 - 10:39 AM For the Newfoundland meaning of the Two Sunkers and other terms, I refer you to the excellent Dictionary of Newfoundland English Some of the uncommon terms in "We'll rant and we'll roar (The Ryans and the Pittmans)" are: Standing room: compartment between the thwarts of an undecked fishing boat Sunker: A submerged rock over which the sea breaks Chokey: Jail Frankgum: also Frankum, the gum of the spruce tree, used as chewing gum Case-pipe: meerschaum pipe, named from the protective case enclosing it Settle: A long, home-made wooden bench with arms and high back, or an unupholstered couch. Two pound ten: British currency. Until 1949 when it joined Canada, Newfoundland was British territory. In fact, Canadian servicemen who served in Newfoundland during the wars were considered to have done "overseas service." Newfoundland adopted the Newfoundland Dollar to replace the pound in 1865. The place-names in the song are all located in or near Placentia Bay. Many of them were abandoned in the Smallwood government's resettlement plans of the 1950s: Toslow: A fishing community on Placentia Bay Valen: Properly, Isle of Valen, a community on Placentia Bay (now abandoned) Oderin: Oderin Island in Placentia Bay (now abandoned) Presque: A small community on Placentia Bay (now abandoned) Fox Hole: No town by that name, but there is a Fox Harbour on the Avalon Peninsula and a Fox Cove on the Burin Peninsula, both of which are adjacent to Placentia Bay. There is also a Fox Island Harbour (now abandoned) on Fox Island, at the end of the Burin Peninsula. Brule: The town of Great Brule, on Merasheen Island in Placentia Bay (now abandoned) Crabbe's Hole: No town with this spelling, but there was a community of Crabb's Hole in Placentia Bay (now abandoned) St. Kyrans: a community on Placentia Bay (now abandoned) near Presque Paradise: a town on the Avalon Peninsula Big Bona: probably Great Bona on Placentia Bay (now abandoned) Little Bona: A town on Placentia Bay (now abandoned) wall with the hole in: Possibly the narrow entrance to Toslow Cove |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: Lighter Date: 14 Nov 18 - 10:54 AM Great work, Superdave! |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: mg Date: 14 Nov 18 - 06:00 PM Farewell and adieu to you, Harwich Ladies, Farewell and adieu to you, ladies ashore! For we've received orders to work to the eastward Where we hope in a short time to strafe 'em some more. We'll duck and we'll dive like little tin turtles, We'll duck and we'll dive underneath the North Seas, Until we strike something that doesn't expect us. From here to Cuxhaven it's go as you please! The first thing we did was to dock in a minefield, Which isn't a place where repairs should be done; And there we lay doggo in twelve-fathom water With tri-nitro-toluol hogging our run. The next thing we did, we rose under a Zeppelin, With his shiny big belly half blocking the sky. But what in the--Heavens can you do with six-pounders? So we fired what we had and we bade him good-bye. Farewell and adieu to you, Harwich Ladies, Farewell and adieu to you, ladies ashore! For we've received orders to work to the eastward Where we hope in a short time to strafe 'em some more Rudyard Kipling |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: GUEST,Brian Grayson Date: 16 Nov 18 - 04:37 AM Re Kipling: A submariner's shanty, by god! |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: SuperDave Date: 17 Nov 18 - 10:58 AM More definitions: "...a cook in a trader": a trader is a coastal vessel that visits small outports, buying fish or furs and selling groceries and durable goods "reef the main boom": shorten the mainsail, especially in high winds "jigger": Unbaited, weighted hook used with a line to catch cod or squid "melted like butter": Although the meerschaum itself does not melt, meerschaum pipes are usually coated with wax that could melt "like butter upon a hot day" Some versions of the song say "Until we strike bottom inside the two sunkers", but striking bottom (going aground) would seem to be poor seamanship. The alternatives "sight bottom" or "see bottom" seem to me to be more appropriate. |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: SuperDave Date: 17 Nov 18 - 11:14 AM Further clarification: Paradise probably does not refer to the contemporary town on the Avalon Peninsula, as described above. Paradise, Paradise Sound, Paradise River, Little Paradise and Great Paradise were all found on the west side of Placentia Bay. These are all abandoned. Since all other locales referred to in the song are on or near Placentia Bay, the reference to "Paradise" likely refers to one of these. |
|
Subject: RE: Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers' From: GUEST,Karen Walker Date: 27 Feb 21 - 03:37 PM The place they refer to is "straight through the channel to Toslow we'll go" Toslow is a resettled fishing community in Placentia Bay on the island of Newfoundland in the Canadian province of Newfoundland and Labrador. The village was located in a natural harbour called Presque Harbour. Wikipedia The two sunkers are rocks aka sinkers. |
| Share Thread: |