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Traditional Songs?
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Subject: Traditional Songs? From: GUEST,Shonagh Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:54 AM Having a bit of a debate just now around the folk club. I have just started singing in some competitions at some festivals in Scotland. The bothy ballad comps. are fine! no problem there but in the traditional comp you have to sing two traditional songs of a contrasting nature. I sing the Dowie Dens of Yarrow which is a border ballad and I thought of doing The sands of the shore but someone told me it isnt traditional! So, im kinda stuck now! What makes a song traditional? is that a stupid question? The organisers of one compeition told me the compopser has had to be dead for 75 years and others tell me its 50. If it says traditional on the music does it not mean that it is? Ive seen the music for the sands of the shore and it says trad. but people have argued with me that its not! anyone actually know?!! thanx! Shonagh |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: MMario Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:58 AM And there will probably be people that will tell you if the composer is KNOWN for a song then it isn't traditional. The 50 year/75 year arguments appear that what is being looked for is music in the public domain rather then traditional.
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: greg stephens Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:21 AM Don't know "the sands of the shore". Can some clever person display the words so as we can seewhat we're talking about? Thanks greg |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: Peg Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:32 AM This is kind of like the kneejerk statement spewed by amateur antique-hunters (who are interested only in monetary value rather than historical information or uniqueness): "It ain't an antique unless it's a hundred years old." This is ridiculous and very arbitrary. And people that get all bent out of shape about such distinctions usually need something better to do with their time. And who is this "someone" and why do you consider them an expert?
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: MMario Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:42 AM I can't find much about "The Sands on the Shore" other then that it was recorded by Heather Heywood |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: greg stephens Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:43 AM Don't antiques have to be old? Isn't that what the word means?I don't see what you're saying, Peg.(I'm not jumping into the "traditional song"argument here, just wondering what you mean by antique that doesn't include the concept of age). |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: Drumshanty Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:51 AM Another example of Mudcat serendipity here. I've been meaning to find the answer to this question for a while. Anway, I've just spoken to a charming and helpful man at the TMSA. He said that for the purposes of competitions at festivals, each festival will have its own interpretation of the term "traditional". Some will accept a contemporary song sung in a traditional style, others won't. His advice was to contact the festival organisers and find out what their policy is. What MMario said about known writers - too true. I have been told by different people who have judged some of these competitions that if the composer is known, the song won't be counted. But again, I suppose it will come down to the competition organisers. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: Watson Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:51 AM Sands of the Shore is on Back of the Moon's CD - you can hear a minute of it here |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: greg stephens Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:08 AM Well, I would say judging from past experience, if no-one has posted the words within ten mixtures it cant be traditional. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: SANDS OF THE SHORE From: Drumshanty Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:16 AM Chorus: Oh the sands o' the shore and the waves o' the sea When his back is turned he's a stranger tae me He's a stranger tae me, ay, and sae let him be For I care nae mair for him than the waves o' the sea I aince had a sweetheart but noo I hae nane He stole awa' ma heart but I got it back again Ay, I got it back again, and sae let him be For Ah care nae mair for him than the waves o' the sea He bocht me a present o' a braw diamond ring He thocht it wad entice me tae gang awa' wi' him But I wisnae sae foolish as he'd ta'en me tae be And I care nae mair for him than the waves o' the sea Oh he is the son o' a high lord and king And I am but the dochter o' a puir working man Sae let him drink his wine, ay, and I'll drink ma tea For I care nae mair for him than the waves o' the sea In the sleevenotes to her album "By Yon Castle Wa'" Heather Heywood says she learnt it from Mary Stewart. And it is attributed to "Trad". |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:24 AM Shonagh, just sing it. Trust me, no judge is going to go out on a limb and say that "The Sands of the Shore" is not traditional. And I speak as an ex-judge, (along with Nancy Nicolson) of the Traditional Singing competition at Keith Festival, than which it doesn't get any more traditional. Murray |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: greg stephens Date: 19 Mar 02 - 12:15 PM Dont know why I typed mixtures instead of minutes. my antique or traditional brain, probably. Thanks for posting the words. Looks as if that'll pass as traditional just fine, it's got funny spelling and everything.keep singing it and I hope you win. |
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Subject: Sands of the Shore From: Alice Date: 19 Mar 02 - 12:36 PM yay! a new definition ("got funny spelling, it's trad"). Greg, thanks for giving me a chuckle. Alice |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: Shonagh Date: 19 Mar 02 - 01:25 PM Thank you so much! its clearer to me now!! I was singing at a festival in Aberdeen at the weekend and I won the womens bothy ballad section(tho i could have really been in the junior section because im still 16) but the only thing that was bothering me was that I got marked down because of a poor choice of tune! i was singing the only tune i had ever heard to Sleepytoon and last night i spoke to the "bothy king" Jock Duncan and again he has only ever heard the one tune! Any of you guys heard another tune to it? The 1st verse and the chorus are: It happened at last whitsunday I tired of my place And i ga'ed doon tae Insch tae fee My fortune for tae chase Sing irey arritie arry ann sing irey arritie ann. (sorry! i dont no how to spell the chorus!!) Thanx again for your help Shonagh |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: MMario Date: 19 Mar 02 - 01:34 PM perhaps they meant poor choice of tune as "unsuited for your voice" ? |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:06 PM John O'Regan, a broadcaster from Limerick, Ireland, calls the song recent, and praises Heather Heywood's rendition. He says it is a song often heard in "sing-arounds." Sands The album is "By yon Castle Wa'" on Greentrax. Haven't been able to find the composer(s). |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:12 PM Sorry. Should be: Sands Hey- vs. Hay-, always had trouble with that. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: IanC Date: 19 Mar 02 - 03:07 PM I think, for competitions (which are artificial anyway) you simply have to abide by what rules the judges set down. BTW, though it is usually attributed as Trad. (including in DT I think), these are the publication details from The British Library.
Title: On the sands of the shore.. Whether it's 50 or 75 years, it would be OK. I wouldn't regard it as traditional, though, (unless you learned it from your mum).
Cheers! |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: Noreen Date: 19 Mar 02 - 06:10 PM If it says traditional on the music does it not mean that it is? Not necessarily, Shonagh- that just means that the person who wrote down the music thought it to be traditional. Some sources take more care than others in finding out how to attribute the song, so be careful; I would trust some sources more than others! What makes a song traditional? is that a stupid question? Certainly not a stupid question, but a difficult one to answer. There are obviously many, many songs written over 50 or 75 years ago which are not traditional, even if the composer has been forgotten; and then again, in the Karaoke file at my daughter's PTA do the other night, Frosty the Snowman was listed as traditional ... There's also the question of what tradition; if you sang an Irish traditional song at your festivals in Scotland, would you expect it to be acceptable? As someone who has adjudicated ballad singing competitions at fleadhs for Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann (Irish Musicians' Association), I would say that what is accepted as a traditional song for a competition, is... what is accepted as a traditional song for a competition. Sorry, but the best way to find out is to go and listen to lots of the relevant sort of competition. Whether or not this is the best way of passing on the tradition, is another question. Good luck with your singing, and enjoy it! Noreen |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: Snuffy Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:17 PM It's not the song that has to be 75 years old: Shonagh said the composer had to have been dead for more than 75 years. So if Henry E. Pether died in 1926 it's traditional, and if he died in 1928 it's not traditional! Is this for real? WassaiL! V |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: GUEST,Declan Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:07 AM The word Traditional come from the Latin Trans (across) and Do (to give) so it literally mean a song that is handed down (end of lesson). A song that might not seem 'traditional' to a judge in a competition (who may be a contemporary of the composer) could well be traditional to a 16 years old (possibly handed down through at least 2 generations). What your up against here is the adjudicator's predjudices, and often its impossible to know what they are until they give the results. Best thing is to keep singing songs you like singing. If traditional is defined in the rules, go by that definition. Don't worry too much about the competitions - music was never meant to be competitive anyway - Although its alway nice to win something. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: Watson Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:19 AM Don't get me started on etymology! Traditional is from Latin traditio : action of handing over. Otherwise, I agree with Declan -
Which Tyler and the Pedants Revolt |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: Mac Tattie Date: 20 Mar 02 - 03:33 PM There has been lots said about song competitions in the past, me, I'm all for them. Don't forget, however, that it realy is about taking part and enjoying the songs and singing and not ALL about winning. Allways give it your verry best shot though and the best singers don't allways win. As for traditional songs, there are more than enough to go round and if a particular song is mibies aye mibies naw, pick another. I have been at competitions where entrants have sung songs which have fallen foul of the rules and appart from anything else it showed the singers up for not being more aware of the background of their material. After all if it was a "sing an ABBA song contest" an Elvis Pressley number just won't do. cheers |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 21 Mar 02 - 06:13 AM The idea of an unknown composer making a song traditional is strange! If we accept the attribution of "Greensleeves" to a certain Henry VIII, then, by this reasoning, it will never become traditional! The 75 year rule (from the death of the composer) is the standard for copyright. If you are photcopying music, the publisher also has a 25 year copyright. If the intellectual rights have been assigned elsewhere, (e.g. J.M.Barrie's Peter Pan, the rights were held by Great Ormond St Hospital) the assignment cannot exceed the "death + 75 years", as you cannot assign something to which you have no right. However, the publisher's rights (to their layout etc.) may exceed this, and will be renewed with each 'New' publication. This is why items like Handel's Messiah are republished in a slightly new format every 20 or so years. But, Handel having been dead the required time, to obtain a photocopy, just get a copy of Messiah published more than 25 years ago, and photocopy as required. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: InOBU Date: 21 Mar 02 - 08:19 AM Trouble with this definition... (he said agreeing with Peg) is that the computer then killed Traditional music. Never again will a song likely be lost into anonimity, so for example, Ewan McColl can never be the father of a traditional ballad, a great loss to traditional music. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: catspaw49 Date: 21 Mar 02 - 08:31 AM LMAO......THANK YOU SNUFFY!!!! That's the best laugh I've had in days. This is yet another of those unreal questions where pigeonholing seems mandatory............ "You can't sing that! It isn't traditional because the composer died only 74 years ago." "Well then can I sing it next year?" "Oh sure.....It'll be a fine old trad song then." Yeah........Unreal. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Traditional Songs? From: Drumshanty Date: 21 Mar 02 - 08:59 AM Peg (and others) are absolutely right - the definitions applied are arbitrary and ridiculous. Thankfully, outside of competitions, I've never seen them applied. You wouldn't get shouted down for singing "Song of the Fishgutters" in a singaround at Keith Festival - far from it. Even in the TMSA competitions in which I have participated or watched, a lot of latitude has been given, probably because the choice of song only counts for 10 per cent of the marks. The way the song is sung and the feeling that is put into it are far more important than any arbitrary definition of traditional-ness. |
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