I've written poetry nearly all my life -- well for the last 29 1/2 years, anyway. Now, I find myself at the "midpoint in my journey through life", my brain is itching for a new challenge, longing to stretch my skills into a new direction, and adding melodies to the words feels like it is the right step to take next.

So: any pointers from those who have gone down this road before?

Do you, as your own personal preference, generally start with the words, or the music, first?

Is there a method to your madness, or is it just trial and error (or is that your method?)

Do you have memories of the first song you ever wrote?

Do you have emories of the first song you wrote that actually worked? ;-)

Etc.

I'm hoping this will turn into a fun discussion...

Interesting to see if having composed poetry for so long, the same thing happens to you?

Ira Gershwin had studied "Vers Du Societe"--light verse, and his vision of what lyric writing should be is based heavily on what he found there. He,Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, and Larry Hart, shared the same ideas, and developed a kind of songwriting that was witty, poignant, and reflective, in a way that was connected more with poetic tradition than the tradition of popular songs--

My point(somewhat elusive, I am afraid) is just that you are not really going very far afield, depending of course, on what sort of verse you write, and what sort of songs you want to write.

Do you write music? You don't need to compose music to write songs, and, in fact, most people who write in the "folk: idiom (and the contemporary pop idiom, for that matter) don't really so much write melodies, as they select a generic melody that fits their rhyme scheme and, consicously or unconsciously, change it a bit to fit their song and it's genre--nothing wrong with that at all--

As I can only whistle one or two notes reliably, any melody composed by that standard would be pretty monotonous (or duotonous [is that a word?]). I can hum, though...

Whether you prufread, or proffread, or proofread, your message came through loud and clear ... So don't worry about it.

". . .there is a melody or if not quite that a beat or something, that is linked to the words.

Interesting to see if having composed poetry for so long, the same thing happens to you?"

It probably would, except that most of the poetry I've written has been in the form of free verse, where the meter is variable and the connections between words is based more on assonance and consonance. As an example, here is one small poem I wrote last year:

THE TIDES WITHIN

We came from the sea before our days were numbered.
And before our eyes knew light from dark,
when time was kept with the heartbeats of our mothers,
we took our breath through gills.

We hold the sea within us,
like a pebble under the tongue --
a secret charm of protection.
Our passions: blood and tears,
are as briny as the sea.
The ebb and flow of tides within
follow the gravity of the heart.

And at the bone-cold shore,
where dream and duty meet,
the coastline is never smooth,
but, echoing the curl of each crashing wave,
twists upon itself toward fractal infinity.

After we have forgotten the numbering of our days,
after the longshore drift of memory
has swept away our care,
these crashing waves will turn our bones to sand
for a cuttlefish to hide in.

~~~

Anyway, one reason I want to try my hand at writing melodies for my poems (or writing poems for my melodies) is that I will have to consider things like the rhythm and meter of the lines in a way I haven't done in many, many years -- hence, the brain-stretch. If I put melodies to the poems I'm most comfortable composing right now, they'd probably come out sounding like modern opera...

Thanks for your imput! Right now, I'm writing only for myself. All the performing I've done to date has been along the lines of spoken word pieces: poems like the one above, and original stories written in the "literary wondertale" genre (one such story is posted at the Mudcatters' Storytelling Page here ).

If I stay along those lines, I'd probably write ballads based on wondertales, which often have "hooks" written into the telling ("Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum! I smell the blood of an Englishman!" etc.)

So, what was the best hook you ever wrote?

"As a poet, you undoubtably know that poetry has often been sung, and continues to be sung in some other cultures."

Yes indeed. That's one reason I want to expand my poetic craft by adding music.

Over the last year or so, I've become increasingly interested in aspects of oral culture and oral based memory -- getting away from my dependance on text. Songs are one of the strongest elements of oral culture, and the hardest to pin down to a two-dimensional page (yes, I know, you can write music into the form of a score, but the culturally speaking, more people learn music oral and aurally more than they do by learning to read music.) Also, music is one of the best ways (Even better than taking written notes) for aiding the memory...

Incidentally, musical phrases can vary in length, and it is possible to fit free verse to melodies without wandering all over the place--cantors do it all the time--

Just a few hooks that come to mind: Just like this train I'm stuck on this line I couldn't quit now Even if I tried From "Amtrac Blues" (1970)

Now we ain't talkin' no trip to China No mansion on the hill Just 40 acres of Virginia soil and a little corn liquior still From "Arthur and Sally" (1985)

...though you're tearing up inside the clock says 6 oh 5 no, Jesus don't make housecalls anymore (1969)

Those three come to mind though they involve multi lines to spin.

One other thing I forgot to suggest which is real important. Learn to play an instrument if you don't allready and learn to sing other folks stuff while playing the instrument. Guitar is probably the easiest. Once you have that feel of performing songs it will be easier for you to write them. If you don't want to go thru that process, then find a musican with whom you can collaborate.

I have cerebral palsy, and don't have the muscle coordination or strength needed to hold or play an instrument (especially guitar)! I can't even clap in time to "Bingo was his name-o!" I can hear the rhythm just fine, in my head, and I can reproduce the rhythm with my voice, but as soon as I try to get my hands to follow along, it all goes to pot. Maybe, I ought to try kazzoo, hmm? ;-)

Cerebral palsy effects different parts of the brain depending on the person, and for me, the area effected most is muscle tone, followed closely by sense of balance... as it so happens, the part of the brain responsible for this is the same part of the brain that's responsible for rhythm and timing.

I did download a computer program that turns my computer into a midi insturment, and am hoping that I can learn to "play" that reasonably well, as I eventually learned to type...

A lot of modern songs (rock 'n' roll, rap, opera) have also abandoned regular structure, but folk music holds onto it. Since you brought this up in a folk music forum, I assume you intend to write songs that fit into the folk music genre, broadly defined. In my opinion (and I know others may disagree), nothing should be called "folk music" unless it has a regular and fairly simple metrical structure and rhyme scheme.

I recommend you look at any hymnal that has a "Metrical Index of Tunes." Familiarize yourself with short meter (S.M.), common meter (C.M.), long meter (L. M.) and a few of the other more common forms. (And there are some forms peculiar to blues.) These pretty much set a limit to what you can get away with. I mean, you might become a successful songwriter without adhering to these structures, but then you shouldn't call your music "folk music."

Besides meter, the other thing that folk music thrives on is the striking image. For some examples, see the thread, Best BLUES lines. There are links within that thread to other similar threads. One warning: don't try to cram too many striking images into one song. Coherence comes first.

You have to go quite a long way to find melodic ideas that haven't been used before, (that's why 12 tone music was invent)--after all, a melody can go up, down, or stay on the same note--and for folk and pop sorts of music, you can pretty much only go up and down either scalewise or chordwise, or you sound "wrong"--with more that 10,000 songs in the DT alone, don't you think your chances of coming up with something that is both unique, and still conventional enough to fit the genre are pretty remote?

Fortunately, what the average ear hears is tempered a lot by reactions to the lyric, and even more by the unique emotional qualities in the voice of the singer--tempo, harmonies, and dynamics cloud things even more, so that generally, only the most astute listen will be able hear a song and recognize its relationship to another song--

mg

It really is interesting to see and think about all the different approaches to songs -- extensions of language, they are, and language is the epression of self, and the wide variety of selves is what makes this world so wonderful.

As for writing poems with a regular meter/rhyme scheme, I agree that is the place to start. And I'll probably start with iambic pentameter, since that is the rhythm that most closely matches natural conversation... maybe I'll try putting a Shakespeare sonnet to music, just as practice. If you're going to start somewhere, might as well start with the best!

As for a collaborator, I wouldn't mind finding one, and not just for writing songs together, either (all these marraiges, and engagement announcements have put ideas in my head) ;-).

But that's a major thread drift, so I'll drop it...

Actually, I find that that approach also works best for stories and poems, as well. Put too many ideas (even if the ideas are closely related) and all you get is a muddy muddle. Maybe you can get away with it if you're writing an epic-length multi-volume novel, but even then, I'd start with only one idea at a time.

Actually, many writing self-help books suggest collecting metaphors in a notebook, and write down any similes and metaphors that come to mind, as you go through your day. Don't have to have anywhere to put 'em, just write 'em down... then, when you do want to write something, pull out your book o' metaphors, and take your pick...

I prefer storing my metaphors in my head, though... they don't get soggy in the rain, that way ;-)

Anyway, you don't need metaphors, you need melodies--

Okay, I should have made it clear that the term "writing self-help book" was coined with tongue in cheek... That advice is also given out by many English professors who teach the craft of writing. Though perhaps it's true that if I take their advice, I'm not really helping myself, either.

"Anyway, you don't need metaphors," that's very true.

If I recall correctly, it was you who were musing about what to do with an extra metaphor, if you had one... I've got metaphors running amok all over the place. You wouldn't believe the mess they leave in their wake! You want to adopt a few? ;-)

"you need melodies." That is also true. Which leads to my next question.

In poetry, even in so-called "free verse" (if it were totally free, it wouldn't be "verse") the individual words are connected to each other in recognizible patterns of sound and rhythm (even if that sound does not involve end-rhymes, and even if the metrical feet do not remain consistant from line to line).

Are there parallel structures in melodies, in the connections between the individual notes?

As I noted above, I have the most trouble dealing with musical rhythm. Is there some general rule-of-thumb which I can use to gage whether a melody makes rhymical "sense" or not? Does this question make any sense?

If, for example, I were to write a melody for a line of Iambic Pentameter, would I necessarily have to write it as: eighth note, quarter note, eigth, quarter ... and so on? Does a rest always go where a comma would go, were the lyrics to printed on the page?

Or should I focus more on the meaning of the words in the lyric -- assigning a note of longer duration to words of greater importance, or emotional weight? In other words, should a melody (and here, I'm really stretching a definition) be onomatopoetic?

Etc.

I have Noteworthy Composer, which is a great help, as it makes it easy to experiment with these things. But, like a fourth grader trying to come up with an exhibit for a science fair, I could use some suggestions for a few experiments to try...

Thanks again for all your help

Wonder why it didn't take...

And you're right about "Free Verse" not being free! I bought fresh copy of CANTOS, and it cost more than $20, in paperback!

Anyway, levity aside, I will try to answer your questions(I can see you are a real poet, since these are serious questions--the kind that you need a blue book and 25 minutes each to answer)

First of all, for purposes of foundation, let me just mention that most all of the folk melodies correspond verse forms of one kind or another--This is because, up until roughly, the 17th century, the structure of musical compositions was strophic, and folk melodies--

(It is very helpful to note and keep a rough collection of folk melodies that fit different verse and metric forms--)

It is also helpful to remember that the metric feet in poetry corresponded to dance steps, and therefore, the phrases in the music correspond to these feet as well--

Sloppy as people are, often times the lyrics or even the notes are shoehorned a bit, with the occasionally awkward added or delete beat--

Now, on to the questions--

First question--Yes,(as I mentioned above) the notes come in phrases, generally, a melody is just rhythmic phrase that repeats itself consecutively on a series of different notes, usually over two or four measures--(if this isn't clear think about a dactyl --Long Short Short-Da-DuhDuh--repeated over four measures--first on C, then on E,G,E,F,D, B and C--not a great melody, admittedly, but an example)--

In terms of making rhythmic sense, music generally comes in two or four measure phrases, that repeat, vary, or alternate with other two or four measure phrases, to fill 8, 12, 16, or 32 measures, depending on what type of song it is--if your basic rhythmic idea fits symmetrically into a measure, and can be repeated in a building block kind of way, then it will work--

As per the iambic pentameter--you have five metric feet--they won't fit into say, two measures, if you assign them equal note value, the won't fit, so you can stretch out the last syllable for a couple extra counts, or you can put a rest after the last syllable and start at the beginning of the next measure--

You can make any phrase, no matter how assymetrical it is, into a melody if you handle it as rubato. which is to say, with an irregular tempo--Field hollers are a good example of this--A lot of verse from the Middle East and Central Asia is sung this way as well--

As far as meaning and the poetic devices that you use to emphasize it, that is, as most of the rest, a matter that mostly relates to your taste--

A word of WARNING--I tried to respond to your questions, but my answers can not be taken as a total explanation of of the concepts--as a writer/composer you study these concepts, in a much more expanded form, and integrate them with scales and harmony, as well as the charateristic elements of whatever genre and forms you are working with--the more you understand, the better your results are going to be--

Heh. "This statement blends well with all aspects of life. Combine in varying amounts, and add a pinch of salt as desired." ;-)

"(It is very helpful to note and keep a rough collection of folk melodies that fit different verse and metric forms--)"

That's one reason I love da'Mudcat (the ability to download midis and store them, combined with NWC, which lets me see what the music looks like, the DT is a great help)!

Golden rules, purple rules, pink rules, heck! even green-with-orange-polkadot rules -- Take your pick, mix 'em, match em! Come up with your own recipe! Have fun! That's the deal!

I don' have a tape recorder that's easy to use, but I do have Noteworthy Composer... I keep little snippets of tunes that way, ready to cut n' paste into a song, if a song comes into my head.

For now, I think I'll browse through the DT, and make note of the metrical pattern of the lyrics, then download the midi, to see what goes with what.

I was surfing the Web a while back, and I came across the following Irish proverb:

"There are two versions of every story, and twelve arrangements to every song (and twenty exceptions to every rule of grammar!)"

heh...