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Origin: Willie's Lady (Child #6)
DigiTrad:
WILLIE'S LADY
WILLIE'S LADY 2
Related threads:
Lyr Add: Willie's Lady - folk processed (3)
Lyr Req: Willie's Lady (from Ray Fisher) (22)
Willie's Lady:more info? (24)
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Subject: Child # 6 From: GUEST,NSC Date: 01 Apr 00 - 04:53 AM I am looking for the history of Child Ballad No 6
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 01 Apr 00 - 05:31 AM I think you might find what you need at Lesley Nelson's site for the Child Ballads: |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: GUEST,NSC Date: 01 Apr 00 - 06:19 AM George - I cannot open the websites indicated by you. Any other suggestions. Thanks for responding so quickly anyway |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: Charcloth Date: 01 Apr 00 - 07:10 AM Child wrote "this ballad like #5 was written down from recitation about 1783" that's all I hav for I only have the student version of his set. he did say "Danish versions are numerous" I hope this helps Lesleys site must be temporily out try it later It is a Super site! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 01 Apr 00 - 07:46 AM All I can say is to try again. It WAS working fine earlier. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: Margaret V Date: 01 Apr 00 - 01:46 PM I'll bet Bruce O. could shed some light on the ballad. I'll try to send him a personal message asking him to check out this thread, but I've never done the personal message thing before so I can't guarantee results! Margaret |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: Margaret V Date: 01 Apr 00 - 01:51 PM Sorry, just discovered Bruce O.'s a guest and so we can't send him a message. Margaret |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: Gypsy Date: 01 Apr 00 - 02:10 PM Have gone thru Bronsons, and SCA, and find no listing for a number 6. Might be a lesser version of one of the other ballads. Got any lyrics? Would be happy to cross reference, and see if I can get info for you that way. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: Ed Pellow Date: 01 Apr 00 - 02:17 PM Gypsy, You can find the lyrics here. I'll have a look in the library at Volume 1 of Child if no one comes up with anything sooner. Ed |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 01 Apr 00 - 02:29 PM The text on the DT is Martin Carthy's anglicised version, of course. His source, a Scots version recorded by Ray Fisher, is in an old thread, here. There are a few references to other printed versions at The Traditional Ballad Index. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: Gypsy Date: 01 Apr 00 - 02:43 PM Wow! And how dare I even think that it might be a lesser ballad! This is fabulous. Notation, anyone? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 - Willie's Lady From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Apr 00 - 02:47 PM Lesley's site is wonderful, but I don't see anything about Child #6 there (although there is coverage of #5, a related song). Lesley's site makes use of embedded MIDI files. They work fine for most people, but do cause problems for some. I got a little information from the Traditional Ballad Index about Child #6 (click) and Child #5. Child himself doesn't say a whole lot about the English version of #6, but he goes on and on about the Danish and Norwegian versions. I don't have time today, but I could transcribe part of Child's text for you, if that would help. I've looked through other sources, and didn't find much on #6. I sent Bruce Olson an e-mail, asking for help. In the meantime, you may wish to explore his Website, http://users.erols.com/olsonw/. I'll ask Lesley to stop by, too. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 01 Apr 00 - 03:25 PM Child has one version which came solely from Mrs. Brown of Falkirk, which she copied into a manuscript given to William Tytler in 1783. It was subsecquent reprinted several times in the very early 19th century [Tales of Wonder, 1801; Walter Scott (not Sir yet); and R. Jameieson). Bronson gives the tune from the Ritson-Tytler-Brown MS (Ritson's copy, now at Harvard) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: GUEST,NSC Date: 03 Apr 00 - 03:46 AM Thanks to everyone for your assistance. If there is more detail it would be appreciated. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: Charlie Baum Date: 03 Apr 00 - 09:40 AM When Ray Fisher recorded it (on her Folk Legacy album [C-91]), she took the words to a ballad that had rarely been sung and married them to a Breton drinking tune. It's the first time the ballad has had a truly great tune, and this version has become fairly popular in recent years. --Charlie Baum |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 03 Apr 00 - 11:04 AM Last time we discussed this song, the midi link with the tune on the DT wasn't working; it works now, but, though the notes mention Son Ar Chiste -the tune that Charlie refers to- the midi on the database is actually a different tune. There's no indication that I can see as to where it came from. There's a midi of Son Ar Chiste (made from memory, so it may not be all that accurate) at Alan of Oz's Mudcat Midi Site, here. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: dick greenhaus Date: 03 Apr 00 - 11:07 AM The tune in DigiTrad is the one printed in Child (and Bronson, as I recall). Never seemed to make the folkie's (or anone else's) Hit Parade |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 03 Apr 00 - 11:45 AM Thanks for the info, Dick! Malcolm |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE SMART SCHOOLBOY (Child # 3) From: GUEST,Rick Campbell Date: 03 Apr 00 - 05:02 PM Here is the information from the Contemplator site mentioned earlier. Hope this is of some help
THE SMART SCHOOLBOY
Information Lyrics This ballad is an American variant of Child Ballad #3 (The Fause Knight Upon the Road).
For a complete list of Child Ballads at this site see Francis J. Child Ballads.
Oh what do ye there?
Oh what have ye got?
Oh pray give me some
I hear your school bell, Additional Versions Other versions in The English and Scottish Popular Ballads Versions at Digital Tradition. To find these (and any added when the database is updated) search for Child #3.
The False Knight on the Road (1-4) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 03 Apr 00 - 08:30 PM That's a kind thought, Rick, but you've got the wrong song! Child #6, not #3. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: Abby Sale Date: 03 Apr 00 - 09:46 PM Some old oddments of notes on this spectacular song. Some of this is already noted above. The question was raised about "a king or prince named William, whose wife could not deliver her child." However, ee don't know his station in life. Just that he was a son-of-a-witch. Child reports it's sole source in English anywhere, ever, was Mrs. Brown of Falkland in 1783. Unfortunately, the tune recorded was defective and unsingable. It was taken, I believe, by her nephew who admitted he was no good at it but was only doing his best. I guess his tape recorder was broken. Although it's given in Bronson, even Bronson comments that this tune is a) impossible as recorded and b) so monotonous as to be wholly unsingable. So nobody sang it from 1783 until Ray Fisher married it to the modern Breton pipe tune, as already posted: "Son ar Chiste," (Song of Cider) Carthy's liner notes give full credit & term the marriage a brilliant one. It certainly was. Nevertheless, there's a partial version given in Greig's _Last Leaves_, # III, "Simon's Lady." He got it from his principal informant, Bell Robertson (383 songs.) She had learned it orally from her mother who got it from _her_ mother. If it entered her family only then, and not before, it would still pre-date any publication of Mrs. Brown's version. Robertson told Greig she had never heard it sung by anyone but her mother. Sadly, she did not, herself sing & gave Greig no tune. This is fragmentary & it's basically the same as Child (A) but the differences might shed some light on some of the confusion in the well-known version: We still don't know if the "Billy blin'" is a household brownie (as I would believe) or an elderly farm retainer with the "gift." There's really no evidence for the latter, just, I gather, a suggestion made to Ray when she asked around. But "Billy blin'" gives his advice while sitting in the "binkie en'", the foot of the bed. "Ye mak an image o the clay, A face o wax to it ye'll gie." (rather than an effigy of wax with eyes of glass) The several charms used are still of the "binding" sort (to keep the womb bound) but include bands on her arms, a lock on the bed-stock. Willie kills the "ted" (ie, toad) that was beneath the lady's bed. Greig notes this not only rhymes better than "kid" but also makes more sense as the witch's familiar to keep beneath a bed. The lady might have noticed a kid running around under her bed even in those casual days. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: Garry Gillard Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:49 AM I've put Child's complete text up here. Garry |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 25 Oct 01 - 07:59 AM Thanks Garry, I really appreciate your hard work. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: IanC Date: 26 Oct 01 - 04:49 PM I think, if you look it up in Hustvedt*, Child #6 is yet another example where FJC has been rather a nuisance in terms of categorising "The English and Scottish Ballads". I strongly suspect that the reason he included a Danish ballad which has apparently only one version in the English language is that he adapted his original categorisation system from that of the Danish scholar Svendt Grundtvig. He held Grundtvig in quite high esteem and may have included this song if he thought it was important enough in Grundtvig's system.
Cheers!
* HUSTVEDT, SIGURD, BERNHARD "Ballad Books and Ballad Men" (Harvard Univ. Press, 1930) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Child # 6 From: CapriUni Date: 27 Oct 01 - 12:21 AM Abby, you wrote: So nobody sang it from 1783 until Ray Fisher married it to the modern Breton pipe tune, as already posted: "Son ar Chiste," Or if they did sing it, no one bothered to record the melody they used... That may be one relatively unique aspect of song -- it's a mainstay of human culture, but it rarely leaves any evidence of its having existed (unlike potshards and cooking fires, graves, jewelry, and the like). |
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