DougR

My other favorite story is about the woman who was singing along with me on "Summertime" and was about a half tone off pitch. She was driving me crazy. So I bent down and said in her ear "I don't mind if you sing along with me, however, I must insist you be in the same key."

moonchild

Chet

it's kind of sad, actually; a long parade of fabulous and roundly ignored singer/songwriter/guitarists ends with me piping a song i learned off some disk somewhere, and suddenly they go quiet. then all those other musicians with their busted egos refuse to speak to me or even meet my eye (a rudeness deserving of its own thread, in my opinion), and i feel like shouting "it's not because i'm so much better than you! it's because i gave them something unexpected, and you can do that, too!"

if folks aren't shutting up for your singers, my guess is there's too much a cappella singing going on for a north american (or scottish, i guess) audience. you have two options: either make a cappella more of a novelty and see if they come around, or create your own little cultural island. get the publican and the staff on your side and slowly train the regulars to expect to be shushed for a singer. maybe you'll end up with regulars who want to be shushed, and then you'll have a real treasure.

cheers,

Auxiris

And don't try telling me I shouldn't take her until she can sit still and listen, because she will never learn to do that unless she is allowed into concerts to sit still........etc, etc, etc....

LTS

I'm as far from a one nation Tory as you could be, (did you hear Baldilocks and the three Blairs on bbcr4 on Friday?, Larf?) but on this issue of audience racket, I let the market decide. If there's magic in the music, you can hear the pin drop pretty quickly, and I say that from a perspective of a frequently talked over singer/musician.

Skipjack

If there is someone distracting the audience at my gigs, I simply turn down the sound system...this make the annoying party look pretty stupid, and very soon someone'll point this out to them. Problem fixed.

Then again, sometimes you just have to live with it...which is why I prefer not to play bars. Drunks don't respond to subtlety.

I was told by the management of this particular seisun to stop getting into verbal fights with noisy pool players, I walked out and came back a half hour later, having wrote the following, and sang it to the tune of, Remember lad he is still your dad...

Jack Dempsey's partin' Glass
Dad, why don't you sing a song, the way you used to do,
when granddaddy was still alive and playin' along with you
those songs you sung, I miss so much I wish I'd learned them all,
it's been so long since I heard you sing, I barely can recall

I'm sorry, son; in this ol' pub, it's just too bloody loud
they've got a new pool table and they've got a different crowd
The fellas who stop in here now are the new working class
a-workin' at computers all day sittin' on their ass

They aren't good honest miners like your granddaddy and me,
I don't expect that the most of 'em ever toiled upon the sea,
they never fought the workers' fight; they never faced the gun
that the bosses used to try and make us fear and run

I think their heads are filled with junk, like micro-circuitry
ah, son, the world has gone to hell; it's just a misery
and if the pool is not enough, there's the bloody ol' TV
with so many yaboos now, there's no room for you and me

and when the yaboos want some fun, they play their bloody noise
shovin' all them hard-earned bills in the jukebox, brilliant boys
that's why pub owners love them so, 'cause when they want to dance
the silver and the paper bills come pouring out their pants.

It was not very long ago, there was a drink for free
for the ones who brought the tunes to a pub like Jack Dempsey
But now we're treated just the same as the fellas at the bar
and the loudmouth pool players, they are treated best by far

And if you ever want to know just how this came to be
remember that the unions came from singers just like me
But union folk don't own the pubs or program the TV
corporate culture's meant to keep you dumb as dumb can be.

all the best
Larry

You named a whole other problem type-the guitar hogs! One reason I'm not wild about our folksong society sings is that the guys with the guitars seem to run things, and decide what gets sung based on what THEY know and like. And the 1st Friday sings have people who don't play or sing sitting right in the circle, conversing while people are trying to sing!

I much prefer the Open Circle in the side room of the Mermaid. People listen, or leave the room for conversation. Everyone who wants one gets a turn or two. If people get a little talky between songs, Lou, (our fearless leader) just says "Song's coming out" and everybody shuts up. You and Max have to come up sometime-1st and 3rd Thursdays, about 9pm, Germantown Ave at Mermaid Lane.

Mary McCaffrey

Though you did pay to hear the music, and you have a right to do so, you can't expect others who paid to hear the music to appreciate listening to the antics of bored children-even potential future wunder-musicians.

Rich

Too, live music is an interactive situation. I'm interested int he audience's reaction, or I'd just stay home. So, if someone in the audience asks a question, or has a request, I'll generally be polite and take a moment or two between songs to acknowledge them. Or engge in some verbal play, if that's what's called for.

As far as out and out hecklers go, I try to ignore them. Most of the time, either the other patrons or the management will take care of them.

As far as the debate on kids goes, I really do think that there are appropriate places for kids to be and inappropriate places, too. If a kid can't enjoy a concert, play, or a movie because of age or content, then a parent is doing them no favors by forcing exposure to it. Far better to wait until they're older and can really get a charge out of what they're seeing and hearing. For some kids and some situations, that's thre years old and they dance all night. For others its 8 or 10 years. Still some others never get it.

But that's waaaay to much pontificating for me this morning. :-)

Mind you, other comments remind me of the gig where Martin Simpson said "I'm sorry if my playing's disturbing the conversations of those of you standing at the bar" . .

G.

The book must have been published in Europe or the British Isles first, since a few people there seem to have gotten the idea, but most Americans haven't had a chance to read it, and it is difficult to say whether the idea will sit well with them--

Until this idea gets enough play that we can tell whether it will go over or not, it is probably best for the singers to plug in to the same box that the background music is plugged into. That way, you will all be so loud that no one can think--It seems to be what people prefer--

The other problem I see is (and forgive me for saying this) is that there are more than a few performers have problems with projection and no voice training. This not so bad when you're mic'ed and have instruments backing you up, but on a cappella pieces it can be deadly for the performer because very few audiences will strain to hear every word and note of a set, no audience wants to hear a performer search for a key and nver find it, and worse off, it will make the job of the next person trying to perform that much harder, because most people seem to have a once bitten, twice shy approach to new music. I'm not saying we all need to have PHDs in Music, but I think any stage performer needs to have enough training to be able to support themselves, and the music they're doing.

Someone once said the best way to deal with a noisy crowd is sing a quiet song. If they want to listen they'll quieten down, and if they don't quieten down, sod them, and do it somewhere else.

I just tend to turn up my voice and shout them down though. But you can only do that with some types of song.

In Ireland singing a song in Irish tends to ensure silence, because it becomes an offensive political act to talk over it. I'd have thought that would work in Scotland too (I mean in Scots Gaelic). I'd imagine that in many settings there's some kind of song that would have the same kind of effect. Any suggestions?

When we had loud drunks at the folk club, I used to invite them out to the bar and buy them a drink (usually free-of-charge from the management). Drunks like drink more than music.

At a session, someone often will "sish" the crowd which usually brings down the noise considerably if not totally. Overtly telling people to "shut up" can be counterproductive or ineffective and may actually be bad manners.

I am not a participant in our session but I've been on occasion and have even sung an a cappella song once or twice. My impression about the session was not so much that they were "performing" but that this was a chance to get together with other musicians and play. That they create an ambiance rather than a focal point. I agree with emily rain that audiences will tend to quiet down for the unexpected or even just the different. To many people, all tunes sound alike and all singer/songwriters sound alike. But there is something about a solo voice that just commands attention.

My band played a St. Patrick's gig last year at a meat-market kind of bar (oh what we will do for money). We did three sets to an ever increasing audience that seemed to be paying no attention to us. Right before we sang our very last song, we announced that we were doing our last. Incredibly, at least half the bar turned toward us, cheered us on and let us know they were disappointed we were leaving. Made us feel great, but too bad we hadn't felt that way much earlier.

It's very easy to get distracted while others are performing. It happens to me all the time, even when my friends are on stage or the performers are really good. I find myself talking a lot but missing the music when it stops.

I don't think it is the place of the performer to try to quiet the audience. The management or patrons should do that. I don't see an artist at an art opening telling people that they must look at a particular painting or they must stand somewhere else because they are blocking artwork. It's not a perfect analogy but sort of similar.

The bottom line, if there is not cover, I don't think we can expect the audience to remain quiet. In fact, I would hesitate to call it an audience since many people would probably be there live music or not. I guess we can just hope for the best and try to offer something that most people will enjoy.

annamora

For the little money you can make playing in local bars, pubs, clubs, and eateries, don't do it unless it's fun.

Hard learned, Chet

1. A session being held at a local bar/pub. In our area (Washington, DC), the sessions are held in bars that are willing to make space available in a corner. Participants come because they want to play together, not for pay. The bar owner usually agrees to let the sessions go on on "Off" nights (Sundays, Tuesdays) rather than "Prime Time" (Fridays, Saturdays), because the bar usually isn't crowded those nights and it's free entertainment.

Under those circumstances, the best that session participants can hope for is that the TV and juke box will be turned off by the management. Since most of the other bar customers aren't there to specifically hear music, it would be innapropriate for session players to tell them to "Shut up" - the bar owner is doing them a favor by allowing them to tie up several tables for several hours (most of our session players don't seem to have a really large drinks purchased per hour record...) The local sessions frequently move as bars go out of business, or a thirsty softball team takes over on "Session Night", or a venue becomes inhospitable in some other way.

You do, however, have a right to expect that your fellow session musicians show you courtesy and attentiveness if you show them the same respect!

2. A party or song/music swap. People come to these for several reasons - most folks want to make music with friends, but also want to socialize with those friends, who they may not have seen for awhile. I've been at parties where the folks wanting to make music have shushed anyone trying to socialize, and parties where the socializing has drowned out any attempts at music making.

Since these events are communal, some ground rules have to be agreed upon by participants. Ideally, folks wanting to make music, or make different kinds of music, or chat with friends, can all find different rooms where they can have fun without interfering with each other. People chatting loudly in a music room can be politely asked to go talk somewhere else. If the place is too small, folks should recognize that both music-making and socializing are important, and try to allow time for both; saying "OK, let's stop chatting and play awhile" or "We've been singing a couple hours, so let's take a break and greet new arrivals."

3. A musician/band who has been hired to provide live entertainment at a bar or dinner or private party. Many gigs like this are viewed by the musician as a performance, but the employer as "Background Music". The musician(s) need to work out with the employer beforehand what the expectations are - and not expect that the audience is there specifically to hear you. It's great to have a supportive employer/owner, but the musician has to realize that their performance is not the primary purpose of the bar or party. If you're willing to take bar or party gigs with those limitations in order to make some money, more power to you - just read the "Gig from Hell" threads for some good stories!

4. A music "Club" or Coffeehouse. I make a distinction between clubs and concert settings - a club is also a social gathering place that serves food and drink, but unlike a bar, exists primarily to offer live entertainment. A performer hired by such a venue has every right to expect the management to enforce some sort of audience courtesy; one of our local venues, The Birchmere, has little cards on all the table saying "We request quiet while the performances(sic) are on the stage." Even so, there will be more ambient noise at a place like this because sometimes it's a regular audience who gathers together for socializing as well as listening. I don't think it would be out of line for a performer to politely ask audience members to quiet down if they're being distracting here.

5. A formal concert in a hall. A performer asked to do a concert where the audience ostensibly comes for the express purpose of listening to their music is entitled to a quiet, respectful atmosphere, whether they are being paid or not. Audience conversations should be limited to the breaks; Dave Mallett's comment quoted by Kendall is spot on.

People who bring kids should do so expecting that if their child interferes with the rest of the audience's ability to hear the concert, their responsibility as courteous parents is to take the child out of the hall until the child settles down, and possibly leave if their child can't listen without disrupting the concert for the rest of the audience. This is part of educating kids about Public vs. Private manners - what's OK at home isn't necessarily appropriate in other places!

So, ultimately, telling the audience to "Shut up!" depends on understanding from the beginning who your audience is and how invested they are in being there (did they come to hear you specifically, or to have a couple of drinks in a place with music, or to get together with you and other friends?) and only accepting gigs where you feel comfortable knowing in advance how much attention you're going to get for your performance...

Phew - this was longer than I thought it would be!

Peter.

On the subject of a small child at a concert, if the child doesn't care for the music it's unfair to the child and to the audience who came to hear who's on stage. FOr the price of the child's ticket you could hire a babysitter. I volunteer for a folk music society and have even gotten calls like: "Does my child need a ticket if I hold hom on my lap?" So now the poor kid not only is expected to sit quietly but uncomfortably as well.