Le meas, Áine

Hoep you can find it there. There are some Catters whosold know this, too, so you're bound to get an answer, soon.

kat

My email address is on the Mudcat Resource/Email page -- go to the top of this page and select 'bbc's Mudcat Resource Pages' under the Quick Links. Then go to the Email page and I should be the first one on the list.

Thanks to you both for your help, Áine

Please don't be offended; it's the academic training!

Malcolm

gaelic is Scottish
gaelige is Irish

the languages are similar.. but not the same... hence different words.

slainte

alison

In beginning this thread, I was simply responding to a request made to me via an email by an Irish national, wanting to find the words to this song which she had been taught in school in Irish. Therefore, unless this person is playing some kind of joke on me, I would assume that this song has been translated into Irish at some time.

As for your other point, I do not assume that the term 'Gaelic' always refers to the Irish language. In fact, when I see that particular term, I am prone to think that it refers to Scots Gaelic/Gaeilge.

As for the fashion of writing 'Gaeilge' all the time -- (1) I used the term 'as Gaeilge' in the title of the thread to make it obvious to Irish speakers or people with a knowledge of Irish that I was asking for the lyrics 'in Irish,' (2) I used the term 'Scots Gaeilge' in my reply to George as a form of respect, because I know from his previous postings that he has very good knowledge of this particular family of languages.

If I am writing a message to a broad audience that includes a majority of English-only speakers, I use the term 'Irish' to describe the language. If I am addressing someone that I know speaks the language or has a knowledge of it, I might use the term 'Gaeilge'.

As far as I know, our correspondence on this forum does not fall within anyone's bailiwick to grade. If you feel you must peruse the many passages here to ascertain their linguistic correctness, I suggest that there are many other threads in which your efforts could be put to much better use.

Le meas, Áine

I did say that I hoped you would not be offended, and I do hope that you will forgive my ignorance vis-a-vis the Irish Gaelic version. The point I was making was that the word for "Gaeilge" (or "Gaidhlig") in English is "Gaelic", no matter which branch of that language is being referred to. I intended no criticism, though I am sure that I could have expressed myself better, and I certainly had no idea that you were making a linguistic distinction in your thread-title. As a mere beginner in (Scottish) Gaelic, and a musician who has had to spend an awful lot of time explaining to people that Ireland is not the only Celtic/Gaelic culture in the world, I guess I am a little over-sensitive in these matters. I follow these threads because I am genuinely interested and hope to learn more, though obviously I feel a bit excluded sometimes, as you yourself might if I were to pepper my conversation with terms from a language that you were not yet comfortable with.Malcolm

(Calum Dùbhghlas)

Michael, the term Gaelic is fairly Generic, and to the English-speaker, sounds identic, BUT, as already pointed out, Gàidhlig (The Scottish Gaelic word for the Gaelic), is different sounding than the Gaeilge, and I do like the different terms, as it tells me whether it is Scottish or Irish we're referring to. It's like saying Brooklyn or Bronx or Cockney dialect, which one is "correct". Unfortunately, English as a language, is VERY lazy and simplified to death. We have lost much that helps a new learner to the language. Formal English lessons in school would help, but I think it is a lost cause after 2 or 3 centuries of neglect.

I'm sure Amazing Grace has been translated into most of the world's languages, but as the tune seems to be an old Gaelic one from what the scholars tell me, it makes a lot of sense that it would be available in the 6 Celtic languages.

Oh, I suspect none of us took your original question as being offensive. The messages in response to your original one were mostly informational. Only one person seemed to be a bit sensitive on the subject, but I think that one took your question the wrong way.

If you enquire from Marion Gunn at -

mgunn@UCD.IE

I'm sure she'd be able to send further information.

Lhieuish,

Bobby Bob

May I beg a copy of the lyrics to Amazing Grace as Gaeilge as well? If it has been posted on the site, I would need some directions in finding it!

Slan,

Eibhlin

Thank you very much for the email reference. Even if I don't need to bother this person at the moment, I'll keep this in my 'very valuable contact' list. Thanks again, Áine

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pointe/4495/index2.html

mian miansf@my-deja.com

Amazing Grace requests at Gaelic-L
For more generic requests to Gaelic-L use the Following Link
Search the GAELIC-L archives

Craig Cockburn's text

Oh BTW, the reason for the \ and / you will see in the text is a post-fix symbol of the acute / or the grave \ accents which would normally occur over the vowel that it follows. For instance e/ would be the same as é

I will be happy to type in the lyrics, and thank you very much!

Dear George,

Thank you for the links to the Scots-Gaelic lyrics, as well.

-- Áine

Subject: grace

"New Britain" is the name of the tune to which Amazing Grace is mostly sung. It first appeared in American lilfe in shape-note format (ie sacred harp singing). In many, but not all, sacred harp hymnals, New Britain is found on page 45. You may be interested to know that "New Britian" is actually a tune reworked from a native melody common to Cherokees, Creeks and Choctaws. Seems to have been a joint effort by English and Moravian missionaries and native christians. In my oldest hymnal, Psalteri Mundi Nova (New World Psaltry) also called Hymnadium Mundi Novae--hymns for the new world-- (not sure of my latin endings as the language has ceased being spoken since i was once a little boy), New Britian is marked off as both a two part canon and four part round with bothe secular and sacred text...that's all that i can remember without getting into the museum's dusty library and sorting through flood damaged files for more info.

I wonder if the tune you referred to as 'New Britain' was known by another name. Here is a quote from the website I noted above aboout the tune to which this song is sung today:

'The melody associated with this song is taken from an early American folk song entitled "Loving Lambs". The earliest known publication of the tune was found in a book named "The Virginia Harmony", compiled by James P. Carrell and David S. Clayton and published in 1831 in Winchester, Va.'

The reference given for this information is: 101 Hymn Stories by Kenneth W. Osbeck. Kregel Publications 1982.

I would be interested in knowing/hearing what tune was associated with this song before the present one. Does anyone know?

-- Áine

Grásta Iontach
(aistriúchán le Uaitéar Stock)

A Ghrásta Iontaigh, is binn an fhuaim,
A shaor 's a shabháil mé,
Bhíos caillte tráth; táim saor ón gcrá,
Bhíos dall ach chím go glé.

'Sé an Grásta a theagasc faitíos dom,
Bhain Grásta an faitíos díom,
Ba luachmhar glé an uair fuair mé,
An creideamh lena gcloim.

Do gheall an Tiarna maitheas dom,
'Sé a bhriathar mo dhúil 's mo chuan,
Mó sciath 's mo scáth i ngach mí-ádh,
An fhaid a bhéas mé buan.

Trí iomaí triail, gaiste 's baol,
Do tháinig mé folláin,
A Ghrásta tréann am' choimeád ón léan,
Am' thabhairt abhaile slán.

Nuair a bhéimid ann na mílte bliain,
Ag soilsiú lonrach glé,
Ní laghdófar na laetheanta líon,
Againn chun moladh Dé.

Thanks to all of you for your help, Áine

The words were written by John Newton, a former slaver, in Common Meter. To be used with any of the many Common Meter hymn tunes already known by the congregation.

It was over 50 years & an ocean away before it was published with the tune we now use it with (1834 in Southern Harmony). There's no reason to believe Newton ever used his words with the tune. The words were used with many other tunes during the 19th century. Variants of the tune were also with other words.